Comment by formerly_proven | Hacker News Reader

Comment by formerly_proven | Hacker News Reader

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formerly_proven

Where is "trickle power" supposed to come from? DisplayPort also mandates that DP_PWR not be connected by cables (only intended for adapters / dongles, see § 4.2.1.1 and Figure 4-23). Note that EC demands that electronics put in stand-by / "off-mode" may not consume more than 0.5 W of wall power.

So I think what might be going on behind the curtains is that 1) DP requiring handling of hot plug 2) DP forbidding "trickle power" being sourced from the DP port 3) monitors perhaps not being able to meet 0.5 W standby if they'd entertain the DP interface 4) Operating systems handling display hotplug disgracefully combine into one heck of a bad user experience.

Things actually start to align now, because this issue started to happen en-masse around 2013-2014. And that's precisely when the more stringent standby power requirements came into force. For example, the Dell U2713H doesn't do this, while the later U2715H does. Both of these are DP 1.2 monitors, so any new mandates in the non-publicly available DP 1.3/1.4 specs shouldn't matter.

> Where is "trickle power" supposed to come from? DisplayPort also mandates that DP_PWR not be connected by cables (only intended for adapters / dongles, see § 4.2.1.1 and Figure 4-23).

The answer seems to me unambiguous when considering the normative language in § 4.2.1.1:

> The standard external cable connector assembly must not have a wire on pin 20, DP_PWR.

...in conjunction with the normative definition of trickle power per § 1.4 (my emphasis):

> Power for Sink Device that is sufficient to let the Source Device read EDID via the AUX CH, but insufficient to enable Main Link and other sink functions. For sink to drive the HPD signal high, at least the trickle power must be present. The amount of power needed for the trickle power is sink implementation specific.

(To be sure, Figure 4-23 per DP v1.1a is single-slot PCI "Panel Cut Out Reference Dimensions", so unsure what was meant to be conveyed there).

> Note that EC demands that electronics put in stand-by / "off-mode" may not consume more than 0.5 W of wall power.

...which is ~150 mA at 3.3 V nominal. Even generously derating 30% to account for ballpark efficiency losses, we're still talking > 100 mA budget to support an explicitly constrained requirement. I mean asserting HPD in the worst case is apparently a 36 uA affair.

Anecdotally, I haven't encountered the issue despite a bias towards DP (on advise from a friend in compliance test over a random beer discussion on radiated emissions performance); all my setups discriminate to either dual U2415 or dual U2412M as a matter of personal preference.

Just thought I'd remark in passing because VESA specs never really struck me as being technically egregious in its ambiguity.

I was referring to DP 1.2, where Figure 4-23 shows the exact pin connections of a cable.

> ...which is ~150 mA at 3.3 V nominal.

Small power supplies become very inefficient due to relatively fixed losses relative to output power. The 0.5 W spec is wall power, so if you fully use the 0.5 W, you might get 0.1-0.2 W worth of output.

> Anecdotally, I haven't encountered the issue despite a bias towards DP (on advise from a friend in compliance test over a random beer discussion on radiated emissions performance); all my setups discriminate to either dual U2415 or dual U2412M as a matter of personal preference.

I'm using a Dell U2415 connected by DisplayPort to Intel graphics right now, and if I turn it off (using the soft buttons) my desktop and windows are garbled because it "disappears" from the system despite not being disconnected.

Compare this to the DVI days where I could literally switch the outlet strip powering my screens off and nothing would get garbled, and the system would never hang or crash. I'm pretty sure it's impossible for DisplayPort to support that, since the display has to be powered to avoid being un-detected by the system. So I'm not asking for that to work. Obviously a good standard would support this usage, but DP never will, so okay, fair enough. I'm just asking for the insanity of "disconnecting" monitors sent to stand-by / "soft button off" and subsequent garbling of my workspace to stop. And while they're at it, maybe fix crashes and hangs on monitor re/disconnects. Y'know, it's not really "plug and play" if I plug it in and have to hit the reset button to get my machine back.

Real world analogy: A standard for desks that dump everything on the floor as soon as you turn your back to them would never fly. But somehow the equivalent is acceptable for computers.

PS: A Japenese entrepeneur sells DPHPDMA devices, which are little dongles plugged directly into a Displayport output and contain a microcontroller powered by DP_PWR, which intercepts the EDID communication etc. and essentially performs EDID emulation in hardware (since GPU manufacturers disable software EDID emulation for consumer cards). They're like 50 bucks plus international shipping each.

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