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Comment by green-bottle | Hacker News Reader

Like all other internet bans in India I doubt this one will have any teeth. Everyone has a "Free" VPN app that they use to bypass these restrictions.

Most people own Android phones where they can sideload apps downloaded from some third party APK website (of questionable trustworthiness)

iPhones have negligible penetration in India so are not even a part of the equation.

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This is typical HN mentality to assume that other people are comparatively well versed in technical aspects. 99% indians (may be a little exaggerated figure) don't have any clue about VPN. Most don't even know how to side-install any app. So government actions do have some significance.

I don’t think that 99% is correct. I know my brother who never used a computer knows how to share apps without internet and play store. They install apps using shareit like apps.

I don't think so.

I knew an Iranian women who told me in Iran everyone knew how to setup and configure a VPN due to the restrictions they have in place.

It's that way western countries because we don't have such restrictions.

I wonder how much of that is a networking effect. If you met an Iranian woman outside of Iran, the chances they had the money to travel or have a connected family is higher.

I think the government nets capture lots of people. Anyone who is trying to avoid it can but those groups tend to be middle class or higher. So maybe instead of 99% it's like 51%?

She was probably one of the most driven women I've ever seen. I had immense respect for her.

She hadn't been back to see her family for 10 years for fear of not being able to come back due to not having her green card yet. She finally got it and we were all super happy for her.

What you're saying might be true, I never got a good sense of how rich or poor her family was, but she was always studying, always trying to be better. It was a very sharp contrast to most/all Americans I know.

She came to this country through drive rather than money, of that I have no doubt.

India and Iran are not really comparable in terms of government control.

and neither are comparable to china, and yet the overarching idea, that strong government restrictions on the populace could drive said populace to be better educated in the use of ways around those restrictions still holds for all three.

Its safe to assume anyone who plays PubG is computer literate enough to use VPN.

My aunt and mother use a bunch of websites I've never heard of for free streaming of movies and TV shows. They may not be the most informed about potential hidden costs of these services, but they are definitely resourceful in finding them. I think you overestimate the difficulty of using technology. All you need to do is learn to type "How do I get $web_service for free?" in the search bar.

Well, this is typical HN mentality to assume that users are clueless.

In Morocco, people would just go to the Souk and have a guy do it for them. Same in most countries of the sort.

Also, on android, you literally just have to download the .APK and follow the on-screen instructions.

I know people who use VPN, but can't reinstall windows. Using VPN today is so simple, people do that without even knowing that they do. For them, it's: "I installed this thingy and now I can watch Hulu" and not "I install VPN to route my traffic via other country in order to by-pass national firewall"

There is no need to side-install; just go on the play store and search for some bullshit spam phrase like 'unblock pubg' and you'll get your pick of dozens if not more of ad-filled, malicious "VPN" that does MITM and ad injection into all pages.

You'll literally get thousands of results of spam apps just directly named "VPN FOR PUBG" or "VPN UN BLOCK PUBG GROUNDS BATTLE PLAYER GAME CALL OF DUTY SPONGEBOB ESPONJA BOB", all of which are malware.

I just checked for myself, and this is pretty much how it is. The publishers behind this garbage have hundreds of uploaded apps, all of which are effectively the same one but with different names like "UNBLOCK P U B G PAKISTAN" or "VPN FOR PUBG PLAYER FORT NIGHT", and a random one loaded virtually every single data-exfiltration SDK known to man, and several known to animals.

You can say the same about Facebook and Google in China...You can sideload or use VPN. Some do. Most don't. Blocking FB & Google ecosystems allowed for China to grow their own competitors.

China has invested into its Great Firewall, which is far, far better than the techniques most ISPs here use to block websites. Besides, VPNs aren't banned, and the government isn't cracking down on generic VPNs. It's far easier to get a VPN in India to browse TikTok than it is to get a VPN in China to browse Facebook. You can even see it in the list of apps that were banned - there's two literally called "VPN for TikTok".

The thing is, there's hardly anything outside GFW that an average Chinese would want, local alternatives often are feature rich and considered "more advanced", outside news are dismissed as "obscenely fake and hostile".

In the few Chinese that do pay for VPNs, most women use it to access Instagram for celebrities, most men for porn on Twitter.

You're talking about the ecosystem in 2020, after the market is mature.

Facebook was blocked by China in 2009. WeChat wasn't even started till 2011.

Facebook Messenger also "wasn't even started till 2011". Before 2011 China had very mature local messaging (QQ, from the company behind WeChat) and less mature but burgeoning social networking (loads of them I believe, including part of QQ). Cherry-picking the date of one next-gen product that later took over is meaningless.

Hmm...per Wikipedia the original Facebook chat was started in 2008. Facebook Messenger for mobile was 2011. QQ didn't have their mobile version till 2013.

Facebook cannibalized social networks in the US and homegrown networks abroad. Though we'd never know, I'd believe they would have done the same in China.

QQ has gone mobile since the WAP era.

Exactly. People are missing the point that bringing in new customers is a lot harder if you have to go through a number of additional loops to install an app and even find out about it. Local rivals have a massive leg up. Over time, once local rivals develop and they are easily accessible and feature rich, then people will stop using the Chinese apps. Just look at the latest YC batch which was full of Indian startups.

You don't need a VPN here in India. Cloudflare's 1.1.1.1 or DNS over https is enough.

Or use open source apps like Nebulo [0] and https://getintra.org

[0] https://git.frostnerd.com/PublicAndroidApps/smokescreen / https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.frostnerd....

What's the difference? Why do you need an app?

It's built into android.

> It's built into android.

Private DNS is available since Android 9 (or around 40% of over 2B+ devices).

Nebulo works with Android 5+ and Intra with Android 4+ (close to a 100% of all Androids out there).

I remember using this technique to get US content on Netflix while sitting in Canada

Google & FB were blocked because they didn't want to abide to the rules on China.

TikTok doesnt work at all now. The company accepted the ban so they themselves are stopping the app from working.

But it's notifications still get through via google play services. No idea why they would allow that.

The ones who will use a VPN to access stuff, are generally of above average IQ, who are less susceptible to propaganda. Not entirely immune, but less susceptible.

Leaving that aside, bans have a very real impact, even if there are other channels to access banned content. You cannot advertise banned content, you cannot distribute it en-masse, you cannot hold competitions, etc, etc. All these have massive effects on the marketing and sales channels.

Sure, some %age of people will use it from VPNs and stuff, but those are few and far between.

In case of online games, people may simply move to other games like Fortnite or what not.

I know tech-savvy software developers of mine, who hardly side load apps. Why? Side loading apps when a secure and curated app store is available is generally avoided due to security and other issues.

In India, with every smartphone having digital payment apps, and the prevalence of scams and frauds, most middle class, urban teens and adults will generally avoid side loading apps. You can safely assume that many in rural areas, are not even aware of side loading stuff.

It seems reasonable to me that most people would not go to such lengths as sideloading apps or employing a VPN to route around these issues.

You severely underestimate how Indian teens are addicted to PUBG. Kids have spent lakhs of their parents rupees on it. [1]

Some have even dies due to addiction. [2]

[1]- https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/delhi/2020/aug/17/pu...

[2] - https://www.scoopwhoop.com/news/16-year-old-addicted-to-pubg...

There are many more. I just gave a single example.

For clarification, 1 lakh = 100 thousand. INR 100k ~= $1400, which is about the median annual household income in India.

I dont think I do though. Video game-addicted teens dont constitute 'most' of the Indian population.

Video game addicted young adults with a vendetta against the government could turn out and vote against it, though I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

Yes. I know because I was one of the millions of addicted kids, and all my friends were too.

China is taking digital addiction very seriously. They have taken strong measures. Some of them are well positioned and others are pure authoritarian. I expect India to follow soon though I have little hope for good long term policies. I expect them to be reactionary and punitive.

People fear education here. I think about why and can only come with few theories.

0] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8503025/Chinas-digi...

1] https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3016183/inside-chin...

Good luck with pubg servers banning you especially with free vpns which I presume most indians will use.

They may also force pubg to include a unique device ban. You can't change device ID without rooting your device.

See: https://developer.android.com/training/articles/user-data-id...

You don’t want to be on a vpn for a competitive game if they’re blocking the fortnite server

Always wondered about these Free VPNs, how are they free? Are they actually free? Is that why you used "Free" in quotes? Must be a valid model behind it since the bandwith must be insane.

They're free in term of money, but the cost is that the provider can sell your privacy to the highest bidder.

So the same model as Google and Facebook?

Google and Facebook sell access to you on thru their ads. The advertiser doesn't get your information. The free VPNs are probably selling your information, browsing history, and anything else they can get on you.

Facebook used to run one, Onavo: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/05/facebooks-onavo-sp...

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