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Comment by spacedcowboy | Hacker News Reader

What the actual fuck ?

From an outside-the-US perspective, the stack of “Things I’d never believe about the USA, please, Alex” is just getting higher and higher.

How is it legal to have preferential treatment, no matter under what circumstances, for ‘friends of the police’? Is Lady Liberty not famously blind while balancing the scales of justice ? Does the maxim “justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done” somehow not apply in the USA ?

Over the last few years, it seems to me the rock that used to be the USA has been overturned, and all the slimy creepy little nasties are being exposed to the harsh light of day. What happens in a few months is going to be critical to the soul of your nation. Get it right, I doubt you’ll recover if you don’t.

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I highly recommend reading Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States". I assure you that things like this -- and things much much worse -- have been going on in the US since before the US was the US, without much of a break through present times. I dare say that things are actually better now than they used to be[0].

The stuff Americans learn about in primary school about US history, respect for the constitution, blind justice, etc. is a very very "polished" version of what actually happened. It's a shame to hear that even people from outside the US get this whitewashed history.

[0] As a simple example, it was common until the early 20th century for police and state militias to be brought in to break up what are now legally-protected workers' strikes, often with fatal results for workers, where no one was held accountable for those deaths. Police were a tool of the elite, land- and business-owning classes. And to some extent they still are.

I assure you, “friend of the police” cards have been going on for more than a few years. And from what my military friends tell me, handing a cop your military ID tends to work just as well.

In some communities other memberships can also hold sway. I remember one person mentioning some sort of scouting membership getting him out of a traffic stop.

I was told an Eagle Scout card might have the same effect, but it seemed.. un-Eagly to try.

I got out of a speeding ticket once because the officer was into the classic car I was driving.

The officer puts you in a category within seconds of meeting you - citizen, perp or 'blue line'. Their response depends upon this judgement call.

My son the disable vet could not seem to get a ticket. He occasionally speeds, not egregiously, but the Fort Benning parking sticker on his truck window and the military ID in his wallet made a difference in the attitude of the officer.

In my city, you'll sometimes see people riding around with the official cap or bumper sticker of the police union on the back of their car. It's no mystery why.

Is it really that surprising that ingratiating yourself to someone who has power or resources on average makes you better off? Nothing about this has anything to do with police.

You get a "baker's dozen" because the baker likes you.

No, you get it because the baker doesn't want to risk getting caught for selling short weight, if the individual items happen to be slightly undersized.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/Bakers-dozen.html

Neat! I never knew the actual origin. But since we don’t flog bakers anymore I think my point stands in modern times — I know it’s only time I’ve ever gotten a baker’s dozen.

The baker isn’t in charge of enforcing laws. Nor is the baker given a gun by the state with the expectation of using it.

There is a big, bright line between “favors for valued customers” and “corruption”.

But we’re not talking about bright line corruption here. We’re talking about police being nicer and more lenient to their in-groups: veterans, other cops, emts, firefighters, personal friends, family, politicians they like, police union reps, the clerk at the Dunkin’ Donuts that always adds a shot of espresso on the house.

The cards are literally corruption and bleh, but being friendly with the cops (or anyone) getting you special treatment sometimes is a human thing.

> But we’re not talking about bright line corruption here.

Yes, we are. A public official doing a law-related favor for someone based on their group affiliation is exactly what corruption is.

> being friendly with the cops (or anyone) getting you special treatment sometimes is a human thing.

That is not a universe anyone should have to live in. If you miss out on an extra baked good because you're not buddies with the baker, it's no big deal. If a cop treats you more harshly because you're not a friend of the police, that is a big deal.

Bakers can't deprive you of your life and freedom. Cops can.

Again, cops are capable of depriving you of life and liberty. There is a big difference between getting favorable treatment by your baker, and by the armed representative of the state.

We got let off with a warning because I have USAA insurance, even though it’s because my father is ex military.

> And from what my military friends tell me, handing a cop your military ID tends to work just as well.

Not literally handing it over, but I've seen this work a few times growing up.

A relative started getting pulled over a lot for speeding right after he bought a red car. Solution: he’s an ex-Marine so he bought a USMC number plate surround (not even one of the custom plates that require proof that you’re a veteran!). Problem stops just as quickly as it started.

> Is Lady Liberty not famously blind while balancing the scales of justice ?

No, in two ways

First, that lass with the scales is Justice not Liberty.

Second she doesn't always wear a blindfold, the depictions of her vary considerably in that regard, and there's a good chance there's a depiction of Justice near near you where she can see perfectly well.

And Justice is holding something important in her other hand, which artists (and perhaps other people symbolically) sometimes forget.

Liberty is the one with the book and the torch.

You're right, but missing all the points. Or just deciding to not talk about them.

You seem to be suggesting that if the correct candidate is elected in November these problems will be fixed, that couldn't be further from reality. These problems have been here for decades. In fact, if we put forth that the candidate that has been voting on bills and by extension existing laws for the longest period of time is more to blame for the current state of affairs then you have no choice but to conclude that voting for that candidate will not change much.

We have tons of preferential treatment in our justice system, it's not really a secret. For example, economic preferential treatment. If you have lots of money, you can get out on bail easily. If you're poor, you may lose your job, maybe your kid (social services), etc, if you can't afford bail. If you get arrested on some minor charge and you have $80 cash in your wallet, you can be released immediately rather than wait overnight for a judge to arraign you in the morning. Did you know foreign nationals can buy residency in U.S.? Not citizenship, but residency; I think it's ~$300,000.

Unlike Lady Justice, cops are not blind at all - they can pick and choose when to enforce the law. I forget what it's called, but the police are literally given the option for some laws to just not enforce the law if they don't want to. If the cop is in a good mood, they can decide to just let it slide. If they're in a bad mood (or they don't like the color of your skin) they might prefer to enforce it.

Police could also put certain license plates into a database that means they don't have to pay tolls. https://www.ocregister.com/2009/11/12/special-license-plates...

See also the CHP 11-99 Foundation license plate frame which djmobley posted about in this thread.

I think the legal theory is that for many minor crimes, the individual officer has personal discretion to decide if they give a fine or just a warning.

You don't want every jaywalker dragged into jail "on principle".

It's probably true in most countries that if the cop likes you, you can get away with much more than if they don't. But this brazen selling of "freebies" does seem uniquely american.

> You don't want every jaywalker dragged into jail "on principle".

Why not?

Because the police force would spend approximately 100% of its time writing jaywalking citations and courts would spend approximately 100% of its time dealing with the administration of jaywalking offenses.

I think a charitable way to think about it is that jaywalking can sometime be a serious threat to public safety but most of the time its harmless. So we have a law against jaywalking in general but in practice its more like a law against jaywalking that causes a breach of public safety. But the latter condition is hard/impossible to really codify so in practice the best way to deal with it is just make a law against jaywalking and then make the second condition discretionary on the part of law enforcement. It is of course abused frequently (police may be much more likely to hassle minorities or people who "look suspect") but I'm not sure the alternatives would be better on net

My opinion is that a law that should not be enforced uniformly should then not be a law at all.

Agree that jaywalking can be a threat to public safety. The law, as written, should account for that. "A pedestrian shall not cross a public road outside of a crosswalk intended for pedestrians, unless it is safe to do so." Yes, there's then a bit of wiggle room where a cop and jaywalker can disagree on what is and is not safe. But at least that's something you can argue in court, and the cop needs to argue why it wasn't safe, while the pedestrian needs to argue why it was.

As it is now, if you get a jaywalking ticket, you probably got one not because you were doing something unsafe, but because a cop didn't like how you looked; no cop is going to waste their time on a jaywalking ticket unless they have an axe to grind. But what is this pedestrian to do? Go in front of a judge and say, "Your honor, I know jaywalking is illegal, but everyone does it, I was doing it completely safely, and I think this cop has it in for me"? Right, like that'd work.

I jaywalk all the time and think it's mad that we have laws written strictly against it, even though I know those laws are rarely enforced. For me it doesn't matter; I'm financially comfortable enough that if, against all odds, I got a jaywalking ticket, I'd just pay it and move on. There are many people, some who might be more likely to be targeted by police, for whom that kind of fine would be a financial burden. Not to mention that taking time off work to go to court for it would be impossible.

Imagine you are a legislator. If know that laws will not be completely enforced then it gives you the freedom to create laws that are bad or overly harsh because that harshness is rarely seen. Whereas if you know the police will enforce these laws against you and your family you will be much less likely to support them.

To be fair no law is completely enforced. Even if there is no discretion on the part of law enforcement, they still have limited resources and have to prioritize enforcement in certain areas.

I do take your point though. It is easy for legislators to pass laws against all manner of things because they know that the police won't be patrolling their neighborhoods enforcing them.

This is a good question to call out - the answer to the deeper question is that jaywalking (and many other "crimes") need to be decriminalized.

Excellent point. Let's look at how "police discretion" works for what's basically a non-crime like jaywalking. In 2019, the NYPD issued 397 tickets for illegal or unsafe road crossing. 354 (90%) were issued to black or hispanic walkers. Black and hispanics are about 55% of the population.

But the story doesn't end there. The police in NYC are divided into 77 "precincts." Just 3 of those 77 divisions issued 40% of the tickets. Those precincts are predominant black and hispanic areas (Claremont Village, South Bronx, High Bridge). Meanwhile, 37 precincts didn't issue even a single jaywalking ticket all year.

If police officers used their personal discretion in some sort of consistent or even completely random way, it'd be fine, but clearly it is enforced in a terribly uneven way, even consciously or unconsciously.

law enforcement is fundamentally broken in the U.S.

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