Interviews with makers of high-end mechanical keyboards | Hacker News Reader

Interviews with makers of high-end mechanical keyboards

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52 pointshellweaver66668 comments

I really wanted to be a keyboard snob but it just didn’t stick.

Mushy keys give me tendinitis on the backs of my hands.

The cherry browns on my one keyboard were okay, but not worth twice an old school Microsoft natural. And people talk about the clacking bothering others but what about the clacking bothering me?

My dirty secret is that the most comfortable keyboard I’ve ever used is the Apple wired USB keyboard they discontinued. Especially for face-rolling computer games. Hours and hours with no fatigue.

I wish I’d started collecting them the moment they were discontinued. I only own three and have a habit of killing them with beverages every couple of years. I’m one accident from having a home keyboard and a work one and no backups.

I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw, like we are using typewriters. (Oddly though I’m the opposite for mice: give me a keyboard light as a feather and a mouse built like a neutron star)

I find the slim Apple keyboards more comfortable too.

I understand the appeal of mechanical keyboards and I’ve owned an Ergodox EZ, Planck EZ, and Atreus, but the Apple Wireless I use is faster, quieter, easier to transport, more comfortable without a wrist rest, identical to the MacBook keyboard layout so easier to switch between, and even customisable via Karabiner (I put a numpad over the right home row with a modifier so I don’t have to stretch to the number row, and it works the same way on the MacBook keyboard too).

Failing to fall in love with mechanical keyboards can feel like a personal flaw because so many people in hacker communities fetishise them (and because I’ve spent hundreds trying them out only to sell them on or leave them in a drawer), so it helps to hear of others with the same experience!

> I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw, like we are using typewriters.

I think it's just a sensation thing. It feels and sounds satisfying to press a mechanism and hear a thunk with each keystroke. I don't think there's any practical purpose.

Can't speak for others, but for me it's not a question of satisfaction and I absolutely hate loud keyboards (even if it's mine). The attraction for mechanical keys, for me, comes from the fact that I can type without having to press hard on the keys and without bottoming out. For me, the Cherry Brown and similar ("tactile bump, no click") are the best. They're tolerable noise-wise and have enough feedback.

Whenever I switch to my mac (2013 model) or work pc laptop (hp probook) I tend to miss a lot of keys because I don't press hard enough.

> The cherry browns on my one keyboard were okay, but not worth twice an old school Microsoft natural.

I have wished the this keyb never get out production. If I know in the past about it, I will buy a dozen to get spares.

Eventually I submit and try to do my own clone:

https://www.clubdelphi.com/foros/showthread.php?t=93558 (spanish forum).

https://imgur.com/a/By9YN2q

I was unable to do it curved, but with angles and the body on wood? It feel GREAT. I have browns I wish to get full silent but I don't get bothered by the noise (not that much heavier typist anyway).

But maybe, when nothing match your needs, go ahead and build yours!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/

I have never ever done a hardware project, and I'm the kind of guy that is terrible at fine hand coordination, but build a keyboard is certainly a doable kind of project (and if have access to a 3d printer? much better!).

Consider too that exist a enough ecosystem to get or make to build anything you imagine with not that high cost (for a unique item).

If you ever get the notion to try again, I think you can vacuum form thick enough plastic to manage a keyboard case. Or at least with some metal as a skeleton to stiffen it sufficiently. I guess you’d have to weld (glue) mounting brackets to the back of the shell and that could be a serious pain...

Woodworking, I’m told, is a perfectly serviceable way to make a mold.

I'm in the same boat. Though I the feeling of pressing a button instead of squishing it, I don't care for typewriter-level noise and I greatly prefer the ergonomics of low-profile keys.

I switched back and forth between various mechanical keyboards and the Logitech K360 (which I also own multiple of) for years, but a while ago I stumbled upon a low-profile mechanical keyboard that hits the sweet spot for me: the Sharkoon PureWriter TKL with red Kailh switches [0]. (If you need a numpad, they also make a full-size version [1]).

We've been using them at the office for a few months now, and I've been so happy with it that I recently bought one for home as well. You can get them for < 100 euro, so if you're still interested in mechanical keyboards, you might want to give this one a chance.

[0] https://en.sharkoon.com/product/PWTKLRGB

[1] https://en.sharkoon.com/product/PWRGB

>Apple wired USB keyboard they discontinued

There are third party clones. I've been using this one for the past ~7 years and it's been wonderful.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=A4Tech+KV-300H

These prices are too high though, it costs about $20 where I live.

Mechanical keyboards seem like a example of creating a need through advertising instead of filling an existing need[0]. It worked well enough that I bought a $100+ mechanical thinking I was missing out. In a way you do get what you pay for since mechanical keyboards tend to last longer. But other than that they are not quantifiably better. For me I noticed my typing speed was reduced even after using it a couple weeks, so went back to low profile rubber dome and never looked back.

[0]: Actually I do not know the history here. What started the rush for mechanical keyboards? It feels like there was a point in time where they became fashionable, I assume it had to do with advertising campaigns but it could have been organic interest too.

Having a fifteen year old, my perspective is it’s the cool YouTube fetish object at the moment.

What I wonder about is why everything is a “group buy” basis. So none of these “companies” (mostly seems to be Shopify sites) have no cash to buy inventory or take any risk whatever? Or is the “group buy” kind of a hive-mind advertisement. “Oh others aren’t buying this ridiculous keyboard so I guess I should jump on too”

I just ordered for my son a 27$ 15g tube of some kind of bearing grease from McMaster Carr. All these keyboard shops sell it like its nectar of the gods. It’s just a normal specialty grease in fact. (Don’t ask me why a switch needs to be “lubed”).

Ah, thank you. I thought I was the only one to have a kid who bought a third keyboard.

It is not even a correct AZERTY (French layout) and it makes an awful nose but he seems to think that this is heaven. God for him.

He recently bought a pack of "better" keys and it seems that he is starting to realize that this is a rip off...

I can't type anything properly (subjectively) on a flat keyboard. For years I've used everything from Apple's slim keyboards, basic dell/hp, Microsoft's ergo series etc. and I always had the issue with hitting two keys with a finger or accidentally pressing down while moving my hands. It all changed when I got a MX blue keyboard.

The force needed for a key press has minimized the accidental pressings and only the keys I mean to press gets triggered. I was about to buy a MX Red from my buddy and I had to return it after a week when I started getting double presses again.

On Apple's wireless magic keyboard I type approx 90WPM and on Logitech's G710 blue 130WPM+.

I agree, my spare keyboard have red switches, but my daily driver is silver switches.

Despite all the negative reviews online about the MX silver speeds, probably by THUNK enthusiasts. It's wonderful to write on. I can write fast as normally, without feeling tired in my fingers.

https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-speed-silver.html vs. https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-red.html

> I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw,

Because one does not need to hit the bottom and "shock" the fingers in order to activate the keys. With a mechanical switch the keys can be activated by partially pressing them.

The actuation force on scissor switches like the Apple Magic keyboard is very low (36.3 gf [1]).

That's less than tactile switches like Cherry MX Browns (45.4gf [2]) and Gateron Browns (38.7gf [3]).

So it seems to depend more on your typing habits than your switches. You can shock your fingers on any keyboard if you press harder than you need to.

Total travel (bottoming out) on the Magic keyboard is also only 1.15mm, which is almost half the actuation travel (“pre-travel”) on the Cherry/Gateron Browns (2.09mm/2.41mm). And the actuation distance is only 0.86 mm on the Apple, so once you get used to it you can use a fairly light touch; you don't have to press the key through the laptop/keyboard.

[1] https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/reviews/apple/magic-keyboard

[2] https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/reviews/kinesis/freestyle-ed...

[3] https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/reviews/obinslab/anne-pro-2

I think the problem with the "shocking" is not so much the actuation force, but the travel distance. I find it's pretty difficult for me to precisely (<1 mm) control finger movement. On a key with longer travel you have more of a margin of error if you will.

Going by your numbers, on the apple, you have 0.19 mm to "stop" your finger going down. Also, there's nothing to let you know actuation has happened. You just have to "know" by how long the finger has traveled that the key must have actuated.

Contrast that with the cherry where there's a quite some distance between the actuation point and the bottom. There's also a bump (except in linear keys) right around the actuation point, so you can actually feel the key is supposed to have registered.

So all in all, even though the actuation force of the keys is low, it's very easy to bottom out. Or rather, it's not easy not to bottom out. In my experience that's why those keyboards are less comfortable than MX browns and clones (I have no experience with other kinds of mechanical switches).

Wasn't there a study that suggested users of mechanical keyboards still bottom out for a reasonable percentage of keypresses even though their perception was that they stop on actuation? [Tried to dig it up but came up blank so far.]

I know this is true for gamers, who have to hold keys, but I suspect it's true when typing too. I found that longer travel distance alone doesn't prevent me from pushing through the tactile bump, so it's easy to develop a tendency to over-press should lighter keypresses fail to register.

I don't know about any such study, but I wouldn't be surprised, especially since many people who use regular keyboards have a tendency to hit the keys with a vengeance, as opposed to press them.

I agree with you that longer travel distance is not sufficient to prevent bottoming out. But for me it's necessary. I've been typing for almost 7 years on my current MBP and find I still tend to bottom out. I'm not sure I can not bottom out without paying a lot of attention. On a new mechanical keyboard with brown switches, I found I was able to stop bottoming out most of the time in about a week. It's just easier to do with the longer travel.

One last point to check would be how hard people are bottoming out, especially on switches that don't require a stronger force towards the end. I would think that even if the key might hit the bottom, it might do so with less force than on a shorter travel key.

As I'm thinking of it, at the office I have a MS Sculpt, which is rubber dome but with a reasonable travel distance and the keys don't require much force to push. I probably bottom out most if not all the time on it, but it doesn't seem as tiring. So I guess one main issue is the way people actually use the keyboards. It's possible many apply much more force that is necessary for their keyboard (whichever type it is).

I have tried using cherry browns before and they were definitely a bit too loud for office use. The one I have now is the Durgod Taurus K320 with Cherry Silent Red keys. It sits next to my microphone which doesn't pick up my keyboard at all or very little. You might have better luck trying linear switches with low actuation force but I am not sure what your definition of mushy is. I am trying to decide if my keys might feel mushy for you. I am not sure.

I nevertheless agree that the Microsoft Natural is amazing. I used to have the 4000 but it broke at some point. It's too bulky for me now though. I prefer TKL keyboards nowadays.

I feel the same way!

I tried a couple of mechanical keyboards (including ergodox) but I found the clacking sounds, the long key travel time, and just the bulkiness of the keyboards to be uncomfortable.

I found that there's a bunch of keyboards on Amazon that replicate the small keys. I'm currently using a wireless Jelly Comb keyboard but there's a bunch of similar ones. It's been my favorite so far!

A clarification: these are interviews with people who assemble custom keyboards, I was expecting chats with the people who actually design and produce custom keyboards (like yuktsi, Rama, Wilba, ZealPC, etc...)

Still, very cool to see what people are building. I've just recently fallen down into the rabbit hole of custom keyboards, after my Apple Keyboard stopped working. As someone who spends almost half my life at a keyboard, I'm surprised it took this long for me to look into improving the tool I interact with most every day.

> A clarification: these are interviews with people who assemble custom keyboards, I was expecting chats with the people who actually design and produce custom keyboards (like yuktsi, Rama, Wilba, ZealPC, etc...)

At least one of them is with a board designer, the V4N4G0N one with Evan (formerly of TheVan Keyboards)

I would love to use a custom built keyboard, but my RSI makes it so I can only type on a Kinesis Advantage for extended periods of time. I'm surprised more people don't use them, the traditional keyboard layout makes very little sense. It's crazy how much inertia many sub-optimal things have.

There's a whole sub community online that builds custom ergonomic boards. They are often split (two halves) for better positioning and you can tilt and tent them.

For example, have a look at the Dactyl Manuform or its variants (eg Tightyl), the kyria or corne.

An exciting new development in the homebuilt keyboard scene is Bluetooth controllers, so the ecosystem is starting to embrace wireless too! Look for nice!nano.

Both of those are really good to hear. I've often dreamt of two things:

Making a completely bespoke little bluetooth macro keyboard with maybe 5-10 keys on it.

The other is probably further off, but I want movable keys. Not custom PCBs laid out how I want, but some way to move keys around, so I can say "today the escape key should be 2 mm down" and move the key.

The first might happen, but sadly I suspect the second is very expensive, and has a customer base of maybe one person.

Both exist! Macros are a really common intro to custom mechs, since they're much easier than a full board, but off-the-shelf bluetooth is limited to the nice!nano currently.

This board with movable keys isn't particularly expensive relative to other boards, but I haven't heard of any custom designs: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32955084832.html

That product literally looks like a dream come true for me, down to being able to rotate the keys individually.

Thanks for the link! I'm off to order the mini.

Enjoy! I use https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ and https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ for example layouts/designs, but be warned - it's quite a rabbit hole

I wasn't aware, those look like exactly what I'm looking for!

I went for an ergodox when covid WFH started, to prioritize ergonomics... Loved it so much that I got the hotdox kit from Alpaca to build a second one with better switches (I went with the Zealios 68g, could go on a whole rant about how much I love these switches). I have 4 layers with all of the different symbols that I’d normally use on/near the home row, which means no more hand twisting while reaching for symbols.

I didn’t ever notice discomfort after working for 8+ hours straight, until it was no longer there. Literally had no idea - but my wrists, arms, and hands all feel so much better these days.

I'd really love to see more data on whether ergonomic keyboards actually work. From what I've read, it sounds like the results are mixed: I kind of want to try a split keyboard like the ergodox or Kinesis, but I feel I tend to cross-over a fair amount when typing, and I wonder if a split keyboard would be less efficient.

I also overthink a lot about the position of frequently used keys like Cmd/Ctrl/Alt (on a Mac for instance), and what the optimal placement would be, and I feel like there's very little data about this topic.

I find the motion of rotating the hands outward past the neutral position, such as to strike the enter key on a standard keyboard, to be extremely unnatural and the source of major RSI. I switched over to an ergodox ez out of necessity, and found that moving all frequently used keys to the thumb pads or to layers near the home row was extremely helpful. I think is because it eliminated those frequent outward flexes and ensured that the wrists remain almost always in a neutral position. I think the health benefits of keeping the wrists neutrally positioned while typing is uncontroversial.

I've been using an Ergodox for a few years now, and the big thing I had to get used to is not cross-typing y. I still do it with a laptop keyboard, but after a week or so I got the hang of it. In the interim, I made the key I would accidentally hit a dead key.

It's a layer key now and I don't hit it accidentally in a typical day.

The ortholinear layout was dead simple for me, I gather that's not true for everyone but one way or the other, your fingers get used to it all after a couple weeks.

I don't have any data on them actually working. But I feel a lot better standing, with my upper arms parallel to the ground, and hands shoulder-width apart, wrists slightly supinated. My shoulders stay loose and my neck and back stay straight. Any number of random aches and pains don't happen any more.

On my Kinesis Advantage I can type any letter whilst keeping my wrists straight, hands still and with much less finger movement than a regular keyboard. It completely cured my RSI and it hasn't returned in over 4 years. I realise this is anecdotal, but it's not really a surprise that a better key layout leads to less stretching and contortion and less RSI.

I seem to recall from about 20 years ago when I got my first Marquardt Mini Ergo, that the company producing them, and the magazines testing them, referring to the world record in fastest typing at the time was made on them, several times. It is split.

So the thing to do would be to compare on which devices these records, or yearly championships have been achieved.

Maybe there are lists? I tried to find them, but got overwhelmed.

I didn't realise how exhausting typing on a normal staggered layout keyboard is until using a Kinesis Advantage, I love it to bits.

Like try hitting the 'x' key with your ring finger (next to pinky) like you're "supposed" to on a MacBook Pro with your elbows out - that's the insanity I'm talking about!

A few years ago I owned a WASD with cherry greens. Great switches, but otherwise a very standard keyboard. It died in an unfortunate encounter with a cup of coffee. As a replacement I got an Ergodox EZ to reduce hand strain. At the urging of my wife, who desperately wanted the clicks to stop, I got mine with brown equivalents to stop clicking. Browns are fine, but I really prefer greens or blues.

Fast forward a year and my wife got a new job with a generous WFH stipend, and she too wants a nice ergonomic keyboard with macros so she can do things faster. And wouldn’t you freaking know it, she got her Kineses Freestyle with Cherry freaking blues.

(I can actually change the switches in my Ergodox, I just haven’t gotten around to spending $50 on extra switches).

One of the good things about remote working is not having to share an office with people who smash out features on mechanical keyboards as if they believe more decibels translate to better code.

But now, with so many conf calls, you get to hear the loud keyboards which are positioned just in front of the mic :-o

There's a really good gfx developer who live streams shader development who I stopped watching because of the keyboard noise. It's just so annoying.

Yep. I have a keyboard with Cherry MX Blues but I leave it at home. Once I had an officemate with a keyboard so loud I couldn't block it out with noise-cancelling headphones; I had to move to a different room. It's just inconsiderate when you're in a shared office.

I like to joke when debugging "Did you reload your code hard enough?" in reference to typing, or clicking, very loudly...

My all time favorite is Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 from Microsoft. I can not tolerate small keyboards with many keys missing.

I am a fan too. But eventually the absence of an integrated pointing device was a deal breaker. If I have to use a mouse, the ergonomics of the keyboard are only part of the equation because I can’t use a mouse in my lap.

What’s the point of having many of the same keyboards which are practically identical? The layout is the same.

I totally understand ergonomic keyboards (I have Quefrency and Sinc for home and office), but clones of the same 60% Etc. layout with just different case maybe? Key caps are replaceable and if you get a kit with the switches you like, you have more or less seen it all.

Different appearance, different materials, different weights, different build quality, different keyboard features, and so on. For example, some of the keyboards have hot-swappable key switches. Some people just like to experiment with switches. And also the quality of a keyboard affects how the keys will sound. LED lighting or no LED lighting. There are also different types of layouts within 60%. Non-standard backspace keys, right shift keys, etc. As an example, one of the keyboards here features a Fn key to the right of the right Shift key.

Lastly, these are a form of self-expression mixed with personal comfort tastes.

None of these are ergonomic. I think that's missing the whole point of custom design, i.e., it misses the greatest opportunity to customize the functionality of a keyboard.

Well the title now says mechanical not ergonomic. Did I miss a name change or is this a general comment

Good switches are necessary but insufficient for an ergonomic keyboard and we do sometimes conflate them.

The same kinds of people who custom keyboards are the ones doing UI design for open source software

Lol not sure why but this is accurate. It’s like aesthetics got disease and a tumor or two.

thats not the point at all. You can customize the aesthetic, the functionality, the shape, size, tactility, and the ergonomics. Ergonomics are not the only goal.

Apple standard chiclet keyboard is what I use. Problem with MK is how much travel a key has - it tires your fingers out v

None of these keyboards have a numeric keypad; these are for fancy design and not for heavy use.

Many developers get along just fine with no numpad. We're not accountants.

Dev myself. Can’t live without a numpad.

Also dev here. I miss the numpad maybe once a quarter but better ergonomics and posture make it worth it. Without a numpad I can keep the letter part of the keyboard right in front of me instead of slightly shifted to the left.

My keyboard is also programmable so CapsLock+WASD are my arrow keys and once you have that down, you will never want to go back.

Likewise, ortholinear programmable keyboard. Holding down one of the left hand home-row keys turns a numpad-sized chunk of keys under the right hand into a numpad.

One does (it's a southpaw, numeric keypad on the left). A few are TKL (full size keyboard without the numpad).

Actually, as a programmer, I pretty much never use the numeric keypad. But when I start seeing smaller layouts with no arrow keys, Fn keys, or even number keys, I tend to agree: there's a definite trade off between function and aesthetics. The beauty of custom keyboards is people get to decide those trade-off's themselves.

As a dev I also have very little use for a numpad. Unless it’s a the weekend and I’m messing around in Blender, it along with the traditional home/end cluster and arrows are just a bunch of dead space pushing my mouse way too far the right. I much prefer the numpad being it’s own separate thing that can be moved around, but a southpaw setup would be ok too.

The worst thing is when laptops come with numpads, pushing the trackpad off to the left and making it impossible to center my arms while typing. Drives me crazy.

I type all day long and have no need for a numeric keypad. I prefer having more real estate on my desk rather than occupy space with no purpose.

The only thing I've ever used a numpad for in my life is Blender (3D modeling) which has some core shortcuts mapped to the numpad. Unfortunately that means these 60% keyboards wouldn't really work for me, but I've never ever used the numpad for programming.

I've had a normal keyboard for ages and I've never used the numpad. And I can assure you I use my keyboard very heavily.

However I've lately started to transition to ergonomical keyboards where I have the numpad under the fingertips but on a separate layer.

How do you reconcile "heavy use" and straying from home row? Any serious who actually engages their keyboard in heavy use would be just as productive with a 60% keyboard, as they wouldn't move their hands from home row position to use the numpad or the arrow keys or anything. That's why for example Emacs uses Ctrl+{f,b,n,p} for navigation instead of the arrow keys.

Yes, I had to use a keyboard with a non-IBM layout (for lack of a better description) for a while at work, it’s absolutely maddening the location where some of the keys are. Impossible to get used to when you’re using a lot of shortcuts in eg editors.

I much prefer these. The numpad widens the keyboard unnecessarily.

I use it for accounting. You can't type numbers without looking at your keyboard if there is no keypad.

Not necessarily - I could say the same about regular keyboards not supporting layers/chords...

I use layer 2 for that, under the right hand.

With an ortholinear the muscle memory transfers completely.

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