Powell’s says it won’t sell books on Amazon anymore

I've had a run of damage to books, but from what looks like printing ... for what I suspect are actually fakes.

The binding is a bit off, or pages just didn't print right / are malformed, or strange sort of "weathering" like effects over time, and etc.

I recently ordered an illustrated novel with a rather heavy paperweight - Amazon shipped it in weakly padded envelopes and the corners were banged up. I even bothered to contact their customer service to ship it with better packaging, to no avail on the replacement item.

I then ordered 10 of the damn things, to see what the packaging would do. 4 came in one box, 3 came in another, and 3 came in individual poorly padded envelopes. The ones in boxes had insufficiently inflated plastic bags, and only 2 books out the entire 12 ordered (original, replacement, and the 10) were what Amazon defines as 'New' upon arrival, though all were shipped as 'New'.

Definitely a frustrating experience.

Edit: I returned all but the one showing the least damage, and received a full refund after some time.

Same here. I am weirdly attached to my books and having an ugly crease in the cover of a paperback still bugs me when I look at it years later.

I ordered an $80 art book from Amazon. Had to return the first two they sent me, they were so damaged. No protection at all, just loose in a box. Amazon used to mount books to a piece of cardboard and shrinkwrap it together. They must have calculated that most people don’t care and it’s cheaper to damage books with a certain probability. As a book-lover I’m offended by all the waste.

They do the same thing with vinyl records. I opted to roll with Amazon because I was impatient and wanted it soon, even though I'd rather have given my money to an actual record shop. Sure enough, they packed the record like they pack everything else - in a box that's too big and not specifically made for the product, with a couple of InstaPak air sleeves; it was almost comical. Lots of cosmetic damage on the record sleeve, unfortunately. My immediate thought upon opening it was, "Of course."

Record shops or folk on Discogs will always ship them in boxes specifically made for records, and (knock on wood) I'd never received a damage record in the post until that point and haven't since.

Never again will I buy vinyl through them.

They do the same to Lego, which sucks because it actually damages the resale value for collectors.

Oddly, Lego damages their own stuff too, no way to guarantee uncrushed boxes I guess.

I wouldn't call it laziness but money-driven apathy. They probably tell the warehouse packers to use envelopes for all non-fragile items. As long as the cost of returns is less than the cost of hiring more packers to keep up, Amazon will do things this way.

And, from my experience as a warehouse order packer, the quotas are insane. I'm cautious with other people's stuff, so it wasn't long before they reassigned me. Commercial bulk buyers got better treatment.

To me this is preferable to putting it in a large cardboard box with bubble wrap like they seem to do for even tiny but durable products like finger nail clippers. It’s much less of a waste and I don’t mind if a book is slightly creased.

I 100% share the frustration with carelessly damaged books from Amazon and don't disagree with your comment, but just want to say it's not Jeff Bezos or "Amazon" doing this to your shipment.

It's underpaid, overworked and (these days) health-endangered warehouse workers pushed beyond their limits by crazy quotas and efficiency measurements trying avoid losing their jobs.

[Well, I guess I should say it is Bezos/Amazon, but you know what I mean.]

THe past few years I have had books shipped more securely by 3rd party sellers than direct from Amazon.

Some have been over-packed - especially from third party bookstores. But new books from amazon, are hit or miss, sometimes being thrown in with non-book items. (think of packing the eggs with the hammers)

I used to think this way, going with the cheapest method possible but I now try to buy directly from the publisher or local stores. Not only does it hurt the publisher buying from Amazon, it also diverts the funds to produce the next book. Some of my books have been extremely expensive but these are pennies to the value I find in them and how it improves my career.

Here's my counterpoint. Your argument makes 100% sense in the short-term. In the long run, Amazon's strategically thin margins on technical books will disappear when the other vendors are driven out of business, and books across the board will see a price hike.

At some point you have to think about what kind of world you want to live in. I want to live in a world in which independent bookstores exist, rather than a world where Amazon has eaten up every other kind of business. Yes it's more expensive but I think of it as an investment.

Ignoring Amazon, my beef is with everything sold at MSRP. Americans don’t have a history of haggling, and most stores’ employees probably aren’t equipped to give you 10% off. I have had luck getting a discount off a new Mac, though usually just enough to cover tax.

If I see an intriguing book in a store I will not hesitate to buy it if it’s 5-10% off. Otherwise I’ll get it on Amazon, probably on Kindle, probably just the sample since my physical backlog is already about 50.

Someone convinced me to switch to Libro.fm for audio books, which gives a dividend to a bookstore of your choice, and Powell’s is of course on the list of options.

‘Course I haven’t been commuting or taking road trips so I haven’t been listening as much lately.

I've never lived in Portland, but try to visit annually; Powell's has earned its place as a 'must go' destination every year.

I mean, it's a bookstore, with active curation, that spans a city block. Amazing!

I end up with the book I had in mind, plus half a dozen books discovered along the way...

I lived within walking distance of Powell's for over a decade and it was my favorite place to spend free time (shot out to Annie Bloom's Books in Multnomah Village, as well). I make a concerted effort to live near bookstores because I think they are some of the most wholesome and comforting places on the planet. That and libraries.

The upstairs rare book collection is so fun to peruse

Unfortunately we haven't found a great way to price externalities correctly - whether the positive externalities of a local bookshop, or the negative externalities of online commerce.

Of course, there are negative externalities to local stores (people demand the right to drive there, for some odd reason, though Portland does better here than most), and positive externalities to online shopping (more efficient distribution, etc.) but regardless we do a terrible job at pricing them.

I wonder if used bookstores should be thought of as that "third place" (not work or home) a significant percentage of the population like to hang out at, rather than just a retail shop. Would a used bookstore look different if it was designed as a club first, with a great used bookstore as its theme attraction? Borders was sort of going for that with their in-house coffee shops, but they were fairly sterile and mall-esque...not very clubby.

I'm conflicted over this business. It's ran by good people but I don't think it's the right solution for independents to compete with Amazon.

Just go straight to the local bookstore's website. A lot of the stores on bookshop also have an online store. Bookshop is a supplement and basically just plugged straight into Ingram (the distributor), so they're able to sell whatever your local indie's web store lacks.

This is surprisingly cool. I bet a significant market would be into this. And with the current situation in the world supporting local businesses is all the rage. I just wish they had a phone app with ebooks.

America only, so not really an option for the majority of the world. Mind you, given most Irish bookstores (in Dublin area at least) don't even bother offering online ordering, I'm not sure a clearing house helps anyway.

Bookmarked, thank you!

And similarly https://libro.fm for audiobooks

I was skeptical at first, but now I am quite pleased with bookshop.org. It would be great if they had a subscription based thing similar to Prime so that I wouldn't have to pay so much for shipping each time (and if you don't go with UPS, then it tends to be very slow).

To be fair, this might not be Amazon's fault, it could have happened with any online booksellers, because ultimately the publisher is at fault. For example, Oxford University Press used to be renowned for the quality of its printing and binding, but it has quietly moved many titles to very shoddy digital printing with misaligned pages and a glued binding that fails instantly, and online you just can't be sure whether you'll get a quality book from an earlier print run, or the new crap. Even the ISBN might be the same.

Why not buy from bookdepository.com ? They even have free shipping if I remember correctly.

Honest question - I don't buy books often.

Don't forget the usually horrible wrapping job. I've received a bunch of damaged books because they couldn't be bothered to wrap the book up. In one case, it was the only copy left I could find anywhere and I was stuck with it.

These days (unless there's absolutely no other option), the only books I buy from Amazon are audio books.

I only use Amazon.com to get the ISBN and then search it on LibGen, since most books are not being delivered in my country anyway.

Same. In general I go out of my way to not use Amazon these days, coming from a customer who was a customer when they only sold books.

80% of the time I buy something from Amazon what I get feels very much like I went to a garage sale. Defective products, opened packaging, mismatch with what was on the site, etc.

Same here, binding off, print colors off, or warped paper and etc. I've been assuming they're fakes.

And even before the chains, there was a big independent bookstore near me that had the remarkable innovation of selling books at less than list price--which was probably the first real shot at the small independents in the area. They eventually shrank and then went out of business, during the Borders/B&N era I believe.

As per TFA, they sell their books online. Personally, having seen how Amazon achieves next-day delivery in markets with poor labour laws, my desire to receive products quickly has receded greatly.

People also want & need to explore physical spaces above and beyond what a recommendation algorithm suggests. People want to have the full experience of being immersed in a space. People want to smell the books. People want to try on clothes and see how they fit and compare them. People don’t want to be drawn in by the short-term convenience of the most convenient price.

At the same time I'm quite annoyed that there's plenty of things now that you can only buy on the Internet. I also find Amazon to be an horrible mess. It's hard to know if you're buying something legit or from a shaddy business.

I personally always look for a local physical shop first, then a local Internet shop, Amazon being the very last resort. Concerning books, the experience on Amazon is nowhere near as nice as browsing in a good book shop with knowledgable people being able to give advices.

I might be an exception and, of course, it depends where you live, but I definitely don't fit in the people you describe.

That may be true but when dealing with book discovery nothing beats going to an actual book store and browsing. Human curated isles and shelves, people to talk to, an environment that fosters curiosity. That can't be replaced with clever algorithms designed to push whatever amazon want to push.

I agree with you that buying on Amazon is easy and frictionless but convenience comes with at a cost and sometimes price is not money. If you already know the book you want, it is dead easy to buy on Amazon. But, it is also easy to buy elsewhere online. Amazon is a bully and its business practices harm authors and publishers. It also treats their workers poorly. Is this the company you want to fund?

They do have a website. I would assume the problem is that nobody can compete with Amazons delivery network (and Prime) on price.

Fortunately, Powells is great for this. Whenever I need a book delivered in the US they deliver.

"In many parts of the world overgrown local busybodies have destroyed "high streets" in attempts to monetize drivers and pad their CV; driving people away. "

Not sure what you're getting at here but if you think you deserve free private car storage on public land you might try reading The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup.

I think next day is overrated. If something is important enough for you, surely most people should be willing to wait a few days e.g a week for it to arrive. It's not like you are going to finish that book the same day (usually).

Personally I want to be able to travel somewhere nearby on a whim, hold a product in my hands, sometimes physically compare it to a competing product, then travel home with it on that very same day.

> overgrown local busybodies

Unfortunately these types always seem to be the ones at the very top also.

Speak for yourself. That's not the world I want to live in.

*have it arrive the next day, realize they sold you a misprint as new, go and return the book, write an angry return text. Get the promise they will send you a new one, get another misprint, write an angry review

Seriously, Amazon really was good once. Now I'd rather order a book from any competitor that cares about their customers. Much less hassle.

I've got news for you: You aren't in Powell's target market. Powell's is for Portlanders, and on any other year of their existence they would be swarmed daily, busier than any food cart. In this part of the world, Powell's is not an online store, but a physical institution.

> people want to order on a whim and have it arrive at their home the next day

Some people don't mind giving up convenience (price, shipping time) to help their local bookstores. From the article:

    "The vitality of our neighbors and neighborhoods depends on the ability of local businesses to thrive. We will not participate in undermining that vitality."

How is it like Borders? It's a warren of different rooms on different floors, half of which are more like a warehouse than a retail store, with a huge selection of used and new books shelved together.

I loved the separate technical books stores, too, although they still have a great tech section in the main location. I assume the standalone PTBs shrank then closed because people were browsing more than buying.

I loved the technical book store too but it was always too good to be true. It was fun while it lasted.

I'm still mourning the loss of PTB. Not just a bookstore, more a collection of hundreds of subjects in excruciating detail, rabbit holes that would take years to follow of programming, electronics, physics, machinining, steam power. I hate to think what happened to it all. It really did feel like a reservoir of discarded knowledge, like a massive grimoire of nerding.

Same. I loved going in there.

The technical sections on the top floor by the rare books area is still pretty good, but it has none of the "science gizmos" and the feeling is just that of a regular section.

Yes, it's called "showrooming" and retailers hate it, not that there's much they can do to stop it.

However, for bookshops, I personally believe there's value in having a well-curated collection of books available locally, so I tend to allocate a portion of my book-buying money to physical stores.

An added bonus: Browsing for me is an excellent alternative to recommendation algorithms, and lets me pick up books that I otherwise wouldn't.

Here in Germany we have fixed book prices (at least for German books). I think the publisher sets the price and it must not be sold for less with the exception if the book is damaged.

So in this case you really have no reason to order the book from Amazon if it is available at the book store.

For other products this is however true, probably because the price difference and the sometimes cumbersome return policies of retail shops.

I've personally not made that experience since

* if the item is expensive enough to be worth checking out physically, Amazon generally doesn't have it, since it's mostly full of Chinese copies and the genuine products are easier to ship from the manufacturers/smaller shops (since that's where Amazon actually has any margin)

* if the item is cheap, I'll gladly pay the margin in the physical store, since I'll get some extra joy out of having it now-now, not "when it gets there"-Amazon-"now".

I should note I am probably biased here from 3-7 days shipping times due to every Amazon order having to cross a border (into Switzerland).

But do they do this for bookstores in the same numbers? It seems like a different demographic desiring an increasingly niche product wouldn't be showrooming in the same degree. The most showrooming probably occurs at big box stores, or those that compete with Amazon on general goods.

I do the opposite now. I search for stuff on Amazon and then go to Best Buy to buy it. Same day delivery even if ii have drive and way better confidence I wont get a counterfeit, it wont be damaged, and more often than not these days it's cheaper.

Depends on the book. I read a lot, and if I am trying a new author out or a book I am not sure of, a hardback at £20 is a bit of a risk compared to kindle 99p perhaps.

I genuinely want to support local businesses, and I make the effort to buy local from Waterstones whenever possible. But it's not always feasible with the amount I buy. I have many thousands of books, including those on Kindle. I don't have physical space for them otherwise.

It seems weird to label consumer preferences (liking paper books) that don't align with yours as advocating for rent-seeking. Arguably, selling digital media is the ultimate form rent-seeking, since the marginal cost is nearly zero and you're often paying for "access" to content. At least with paper books you get a physical product (and resale rights) with your purchase.

Sometimes you are buying more than just a book and human expertise still has a value. I'll give you an example, I was very pleased to see a local music store flourishing mid pandemic, as I feared they might go under. I purchased an instrument knowingly at a considerable markup because they had a ton of knowledge I needed and I was able to ask many questions. I know that if I decided to go in and ask all of those same questions but then instead of buying it at Art's Music, I decide to find the lowest bidder online, it is only a matter of time before Art and his expertise disappear from the market. I'm afraid there aren't enough people supporting Art to keep human expertise relevant these days. Amazon may provide a very good service now but once all competition is gone what incentive is there to provide the same level of service?

I disagree. For fiction, at least, used bookstores let you find some obscure stuff for cheap, and a book can pass through many hands and develop its own story along the way. Some of this stuff isn't available digitally.

I don't think ebooks are a definitive gain over physical. For fiction, I like being able to read them on my phone, and I like Kindle's X-Ray and other features on highlight (who is this character again??). Otherwise, books are damn good. For technical books, I vastly prefer paper, though.

The online ebook market is being swarmed by authors gaming the system. The number of them who split their book into a 12-book "series" that all managed to get released in a year, for instance. Tons of shovelware.

There's just also nothing like a good second-hand bookstore, with it's chill vibe and tactile product.

Finally, kids books should be physical, forever. I don't let my kids read on a tablet or other device, ever.

Bookstores offer something electronic media doesn't -- discovery.

1. You know what you want, you search for it and order it. 2. You know vaguely what you want, you search, read reviews and order it. 3. You walk into a bookstore and wander around and eventually pick something out.

I just haven't seen #3 replicated in online fashion. Sure there are a million sites that will guide you to what you want, but you never quite find yourself in an odd section of the store, pulled in by something you would never have tried before.

More than anything else, I think this what people miss. They don't want bookstores to exist just because.

Depending on how old you are, there is a big difference between the big stores now, and the same stores just 20 years ago. They used to carry a much larger selection of actual books. My local Barnes & Noble has huge sections dedicated to toys and other things where books used to be. On the actual shelves that remain there are fewer books, and far fewer mass market paperbacks. The latter having been replaced by the more expensive trade paperbacks. The books they do have tend to be on the very popular end -- something which needs far less discovery. The library depth they used to have is gone.

This leads to two bad experiences that we didn't use to have in the big book stores. You want something simple that should exist -- Tom Sawyer for instance -- and you might only find the trade paperback for $13.95. But you need it for school and it's too late to order, so you get gouged. Other times I'm looking for a book that would have been in the back catalog but isn't any more. They will helpfully offer to order it for me -- at a higher price and longer wait than Amazon, other retailers, and frequently B&N online as well.

I get they want to carry less inventory. But the whole point of a bookstore (to me) is the wide inventory of books I don't know I already want. If it's a matter of just books I know I want, I don't have to go to the bookstore.

I keep going and I keep hoping, but those days appear to be gone. Good luck to Powell's if they have a better store than my local B&N.

Some of my favorite moments in time are traveling to some city and carving out time to visit a locally run bookstore. I can point to books on my bookshelf and recall precisely the year and store from which I purchased it.

Maybe bookstores are a problem the way you describe them... I also have a friend who does the annual holiday musical/dance/theater productions in her local town. Auditions, rehearsals, musicians, dancers, actors, etc. Her studio loses money. Her partner contributes most of the matching funds needed to break even. They book theaters and sell tickets, etc. It doesn't make money, it's not a high profile cultural event, it's a hobby but the people who do it, and attend year after year, love it.

I'm not saying bookstores are like that, for better and worse. I personally think bookstores can and should survive in our economic environments. They're a universal funnel of product, output, art, commerce and community. We can buy things from them and they can employee people and survive.

That said -- I just looked up the new Beowulf translation. Powell's is out, Bookshop is out, but Amazon can says it's "In Stock". Sigh^3.

Me too, been going there a long time. Though it has had its own share of public labor disputes with employees over the years.

That said, the local support really is quite good and as far as I know the company hasn’t been in real dire straights.

>The pandemic changed the landscape, Powell said...its Amazon sales slowed so she decided to focus on the bookstore’s own website.

I like Powell’s but the site wasn’t really very good. It was like so many other companies that have somehow been caught flat footed when they should have been hiring and building excellent online experiences _around_ their core value offering years ago.

This is with acknowledgment that the company built out an entire area to do online sales years back.

Powell’s could have or still can build its own GoodReads or similar engagement tool but they haven’t and probably won’t.

So long as the company is competing like an online bookstore I don’t think it will ever compete with Amazon in potential sales.

Any other source?

The real reason for this is, Powell has it's own book store that competes with Amazon.

We are fortunate to still have a Barnes and Noble nearby. Hope it stays open.

Often you can buy direct from the author or publisher. If your goal is to avoid Amazon (although I admit I don't know how this will affect revenues to the author/publisher), you can get in touch with your local bookstores or places like https://www.indiebound.org/

That's true. But I'd say the problem is us. We want the perks of local business, but too often they're an afterthought. Or we simply choose convenience. Saving a couple dollars on Amazon is no savings at all, if we eventually lose things we love (e.g., local bookstore). But try selling that to someone who is has a religiosly deep relationship with their Prime membership and is convinced they're too busy to fit the local ____ store in. The Hustle Culture mentality has real side effects.

That said, as someone who did (i.e., owner) B&M retail for 10 years, local business need to be more available. Closing at 6.00 pm every day limits your audience. Being open later one or two evenings is a game changer. _If_ you are focused on your customers and their needs.

Or, if your store is in a small town and you drive to your shop, don't take up prime parking spots. Yes, I've seen this done. "Business is slow." Gee, I wonder why.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not an Amazon supporter. They are my vendor or last choice. That said, it's sad how often I get to that last choice so quickly (e.g., Powell's website is marginal at best).

Singapore social housing works like that. Bottom floors are reserved for local small business and food court with small hawker stalls.

It was fun exploring local food courts of bigger buildings.

Or would hedge funds and REITs just buy these spaces (or keep them to rent out after building them—a common practice for developers) and continue to charge high rent with more empty storefronts?

I’ve thought for years that the growing number of commercial vacancies, even pre-Covid, would “sort itself out.” It certainly hasn’t yet.

and foster communities

If you take a trip to the East Bay you'll see mixed-use buildings with the storefronts converted to housing.

Many European countries have mixed-use zoning. That still hasn't stopped bookstores from hollowing out -- actual books getting fewer and fewer while most of the stock becomes hipster accoutrements like vinyl records and tea sets -- or closing entirely. The problem is that physical books are just not in-demand and high-margin enough to cover labour costs and rents in this day and age.

If I understand correctly, Powell's owns their downtown property, including the parking garage. The rent on their adjacent location may be high, and they did renovate and change those adjacent locations a few years ago, but that shouldn't endanger the main "city of books" block.

I have been to the Portland location, and as amazing as it is the Hyde Park Powell's will always hold a special place in my heart. I spent many a day in college wasting time in the shelves of Powell's and spent a lot more money there than I should have. My interest in graphic novels was started by a book (Dash Shaw's Bodyworld) I stumbled onto there, my interest in poetry the same (Stanely Kunitz' Passing Through). Perhaps most significantly, I discovered a book on cellular automata there that really kicked off my interest in computer science.

The truly enormous lines that constantly plague the Portland location would indicate otherwise.

If you ever had the opportunity to visit Powell's technical bookstore in the past, you'd find it very worthy. It was an amazing goldmine of books, back before Amazon, and back when university campuses had actual bookstores with actual technical books.

When I worked for Rogue Wave Software in the 90's, we took an all-team field trip (rented bus) up to Powell's TB with everyone getting a spending amount to get whatever they wanted.