Hacker News Reader

I mention that the data that appears to be used for those purposes is sent again in a separate request to a separate end point, so we have two types of requests: last read location, and reading analytics. Sorry it wasn't clear, I'll try to improve the wording.

Will you also be updating and noting that the requests to Wikipedia and Bing are for explicit customer-benefiting features?

Might be worth noting that you can opt out of their data collection (on the e-reader, at a minimum) as well. Settings > Device Options > Advanced Options > Privacy or in the device management console in your account on amazon.com

The text in question:

> Highlighting or tapping any word will send the requests with the text to Bing Translate and Wikipedia, as well as back to Amazon.

Is there a reason why that text needs to be sent before the user clicks the "translate" button? Is there a reason why it needs to be sent to Amazon?

> Is there a reason why that text needs to be sent before the user clicks the "translate" button?

Yes - UX latency. I would expect this kind of thing to take a few thousand milliseconds, and shaving off a few hundred milliseconds from between when the user highlights text and when they select "translate" is significant. The fact that this data is being sent to Wikipedia of all places further signals that the usage is likely to be innocuous.

Do I think that this is globally a good design decision? No, for both engineering and privacy reasons. There's definitely no good reason why it should be sent to Amazon at all.

> There's definitely no good reason why it should be sent to Amazon at all.

I was wracking my brain on this, and all I could come up with was "to independently verify the invoicing for Bing translations" and "how many times are people accessing the definition/translation and not highlighting". So, analytics, not something that explicitly benefits the user.

Can we stop pretending that analytics don't explicitly benefit the user? Product Engineering organizations rely on analytics to improve user experiences.

Analytics can be done less granularly and still benefit the user. Also, surely not every data point collected is used to benefit the user.

For example, Amazon doesn't need to know where I am when I request a definition or translation. If they're concerned about usage, they only need to know how many times I actually used one or both of those features per day, per week, or month. They don't need to know instantly every single time a word is highlighted.

> Analytics can be done less granularly and still benefit the user. Also, surely not every data point collected is used to benefit the user.

How? For all we know, it isn't granular - it might be aggregated at the server level to hide specific user's actions. But they'd still need to be sending in the data from the device to the server.

The device could keep a daily count of interesting actions, and sync that to analytics servers on a daily or weekly basis. That preserves 95% of legitimate use cases while leaking much less private data (like how my reading habits are distributed across the day)

I mean, you're still collecting most of the problematic data. And you might legitimately be interested in what you're leaving out - knowing time of day that people do things is actually important for plenty of use cases.

When you play an online slot game where you bet money that some numbers will appear on screen, and they use analytics to "improve user experience" (read: engagement, read: you losing more money), is that benefiting you or is it benefiting them?

I'm surprised you'd say that. Out of interest, how does analytics help websites not use blathery, unhelpful text in overly-small fonts, done too-pale to make them unreadable. A lot of UI failings are of this most basic kind.

They can but they're often much more than that.

Also it should really be opt in. Our at least opt out. I hate Amazon looking over my shoulder while reading a book.

That's why I don't use their reading app and use a custom OS.

The word choice we want here is directly vs. indirectly.

Kindle devices have a dictionary on device. By looking into which words are most frequently defined, they can add these to the local dictionary to help improve the speed of the UI.

The screen refresh rate on these devices is measured in seconds, so a few hundred millis of network latency is impossible to display.

This isn't universally true - Dan Luu's computer latency page[1] lists three Kindles, all below 900 ms of latency. And, since some devices have latency as low as 570 ms, it makes sense that they would use this optimization.

[1] https://danluu.com/input-lag/

That doesn’t seem right. Let’s consider the screen refresh to be like a subway station, where the train shows up every few seconds. We need the text we want to show to the user to be at the stop waiting when the train arrives. If we miss the train, we need to wait for the next train to get our text on the screen. The network latency delays when we show up to wait at the station.

If the refresh rate is 5 seconds, and the network response time is 500ms, than eliminating the 500ms response time means we are 10% less likely to miss the train. On average, the time for the text to appear on the screen decreases by 500ms.

All this assumes the refreshes happening on a static schedule. If the software can trigger the refresh, then it’s a lot simpler. The 500ms improvement in latency would apply equally to every engagement with the translate feature.

There's no static schedule. It's an e-ink display. Refreshes happen when software tells it to display something new and take several hundred millis per blank - and a screen can be up to three blanks (because if it doesn't go white-black-display, then some pixels get stuck "on" or "off" or "halfway").

In that case, it’s clear that eliminating the network request before triggering the refresh directly reduces the amount of time the user has to wait to see the result.

have you actually used a kindle? it certainly doens't take seconds for the definitions to pop up. a full-page refresh might take a second, but most page turns or UI interactions are partial draws and are much faster.

I suspect that they were overstating a limitation of these devices rather than speaking from inexperience. While it has been years since I've used a Kindle, I do use Kobo devices and the delays are perceptible. While changing a page may be quite quick, user interface elements (such as a box containing a definition) seem to take longer. I suspect that they have to be more agressive when refreshing the screen before and after these user interface elements are displayed in order to make the ghosting less perceptible.

If you want to see what I mean by the ghosting of user interface elements being more perceptible, try using KOReader. The ghosting after using a menu can be quite noticable (at least on Kobo devices, which are based on the same technology).

Also remember that "Kindle" can refer to an app on your phone or desktop computer, all of which may share code related to highlighting and translating.

You're exaggerating how slow the screens are.

And the fact that the screens are slow should be motivation to make the rest of the system as responsive as possible. A good software engineer will work around bottlenecks, not shrug their shoulders and introduce new ones.

On the iOS app it all appears instantly-ish when I highlight, so I'm guessing it's just the same codebase.

There isn't a "translate button" - the selection of the word i the button for define/translate/wiki. You swipe between the three cards.

I like this, as a user. I don't want MORE buttons to tap through when I'm trying to define or translate a word. Especially since the Kindle eink screen and UI is not the most responsive.

This is literally my #1 used feature of my Kindle. I read texts in different languages to have a quick access to single-tap translations.

If it took 2 taps, I would switch platforms.

> Might be worth noting that you can opt out of their data collection (on the e-reader, at a minimum) as well. Settings > Device Options > Advanced Options > Privacy or in the device management console in your account on amazon.com

Good tip, I'm going to give this a whirl. Unfortunately, all the network calls add a significant amount of latency even if one didn't care about privacy.

I liked the article. If you are gonna update it, please consider also mentioning technical aspect. Frankly, Amazon snooping on users is to be expected, but short mention of app for which platform have you analysed using which tools would be welcome addition.

> Frankly, Amazon snooping on users is to be expected

Snooping on users during e-commerce transactions, sure.

But recording user's detailed interactions with every ebook? I hope that's a big surprise to your average Kindle user.

It would be great to see a data request response and how much of this data is retained and for how long. It's clearly not anonymized at the request level.

Very easy to see a future where just reading certain books or reading certain books too many times could flag you as dangerous or be used to support a mental incompetence hearing resulting in loss of rights.

> But recording user's detailed interactions with every ebook? I hope that's a big surprise to your average Kindle user.

I doubt it. Here are some features the Kindle phone app intentionally advertises to the user:

- prediction of how long the book will take to complete, based on your reading rate

- tracking of whether or not you read anything on any given day

Can you provide the URLs so we can use pihole to block the requests?

(off-topic) What’re the advantages of pihole over /etc/hosts?

They both work similarly if you're using them to block outbound requests, but a Pi-Hole would intercept and block outbound requests for every device on the network where it's installed, whereas editing /etc/hosts would only block requests on a single device (unless that device is your router, I guess?)

>(off-topic) What’re the advantages of pihole over /etc/hosts?

It's good for cases exactly like this - devices where you don't have control over /etc/hosts (or where you have lots of them and don't want to keep the hosts files in sync). I use it for my Samsung TV to keep them from phoning home (but still letting me use apps)

Edit: you can also set up a DoH endpoint and filter traffic while also allowing Encrypted SNI to work

> It's good for cases exactly like this - devices where you don't have control over /etc/hosts

Is the pihole a DNS server or a firewall? Sibling comments suggest it's a DNS server, but that doesn't answer this need at all -- if you don't control /etc/hosts, you don't control the device. It can do its resolution however it wants. Most obviously, it can include the domain names you don't want it to reach in its own /etc/hosts file, which you just said you didn't control.

That it works for all devices on your network. Even ones that don't have an etc/hosts :)

In addition to sibling replies which point out network-wide usefulness... pihole (or any dns server) can/will return NXDOMAIN instead /etc/hosts which will only return an ip. A dns server can also be configured to match a domain and any subdomain (wildcard match) without having to specify each entry individually.

I believe page location analytics are used for the amount of money that goes to Kindle Unlimited authors, also.

It can't just track the very last page in the book that you read, because authors were gaming that by encouraging people to immediately skip to the last page of very large works they didn't otherwise care about. Instead there's some kind of heuristic that tries to figure out if you've more-or-less-normally read the book.

A good point, since KU authors are paid per page read. Lots of fraud potential there.

I think the reason to send a sync every page turn is you don’t know if the device will be in contact when any alternate sync trigger happens so to keep it mostly up to date the best option is to constantly sync whenever you have connectivity.

I honestly don't mind the FUD as long as user don't have options. Amazon deserves the bad press in that case. Kindle is an awesome screen reader, but such features make it a bad device. A good device just had an option "sync usage data to Amazon account" <yes/no>. People suggest it is a technical impossibility.

It is just a shame that you have no options. Had to quickly search if my kindle has GPS capabilities. Gladly it does not.

"Kindle Collects a Surprisingly Large Amount of Data" is a completely honest and in my opinion correct statement. So yes, companies are dishonest in their data collection practices and responding with exaggeration is maybe wrong. But I do care more about the data collection issue.

I pointed this out in a thread, but with the e-reader devices at least, you do have an option. It's opt-out, which sucks, but it does exist.

> which sucks

Note that it doesn't just suck because you're giving up using the Kindle itself. It also sucks because you'll be losing your entire collection of Ebooks, which are DRM-encumbered and can not be ported to other non-Amazon devices/platforms/apps.

This makes it extremely difficult for other privacy-respecting platforms to compete on the market, since using them requires the user to either break the law by stripping DRM from their books, or to abandon their entire purchased library.

Future TOS/EULA/Privacy changes that might not have been in place when a user originally bought their Kindle can thus be forced on them by making it prohibitively expensive for the user to opt out or change ecosystems.

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding - you can turn off analytics on your e-reader without giving up the kindle platform. It's also separate from whispersync (which can also be disabled independently).

Just for clarification -- is this something that actually turns off the collection itself?

I'm seeing conflicting things online that range from "just hit this toggle and you're good", to "you can disable some of it, but not all", to "this only opts out of data processing for ads/analytics".

If there really is an option to disable the collection entirely, then that would mitigate a large number of the problems I have with that practice. Of course I'd love for it to be opt-in, but just giving the option would still be better than many other devices like Smart TVs.

Kindles have airplane mode and allow you to load books onto them using the USB connection. The battery also lasts somewhat longer if you use them that way. Amazon directly offers a "Download & Transfer via USB" option for ebooks you purchase in their store, as well -- this is a relatively well-supported use case.

It does mean that if you want to be absolutely sure your Kindle isn't phoning home, you can't use the Kindle browser, and you need a laptop or similar to download the things you want to transfer over. It's not a perfect solution for everyone, but for the typical HN reader who is concerned about telemetry, it should work.

I've done this. Mine has been in aeroplane mode since the day I got it. I seem to remember having to allow it to connect to Amazon once when I first took it out of the box, but since then, no network connectivity at all, and zero problems as a result. It's been great.

I download the ebooks themselves using the Kindle application on my computer (if I'm using Amazon to get them, which I don't always), and then use Calibre to manage/import/convert/strip DRM from them. I don't need the sync functionality, or to be able to look things up on the internet (not being able to do that is a feature as far as I'm concerned!). I just want text on a page. I like the "e-reader" experience, and I have no desire to read books on a phone or tablet. I have one Kindle, and it comes with me if I think I'm going to have the opportunity to read when I'm out of the house.

Of course, if you're using Amazon to get your books they'll still build a profile of your reading habits, but there's something about tracking the exact parts of a book I'm reading, the bits I might linger on or reread, which feels extra intrusive to me, and which I categorically don't want.

> Mine has been in aeroplane mode since the day I got it. I seem to remember having to allow it to connect to Amazon once when I first took it out of the box, but since then, no network connectivity at all, and zero problems as a result. It's been great.

I also never connect my Kindle to the internet. (The phone app does connect.) You don't have to allow it to connect to Amazon once. Mine has never connected.

> A good device just had an option "sync usage data to Amazon account"

The Kindle has an option to "sync last page", which you can turn off -- that sounds like it could be exactly what you're asking for, but more experimentation would be needed to know for sure.

I didn't see any mention of this config in the OP, aside from mentioning that the feature exists, so it's unclear whether the data being sent is used just for that feature, or whether less data is sent if the sync feature is turned off.

In isolation, "last read page" could surely be E2E encrypted. Amazon would know that I'm using a Kindle app or device, but everything else could be opaque.

There's no motive on Amazon's part to do it this way, it would be a hassle to implement, possibly not great for battery life, and I expect that users don't care much.

Frankly, I don't care much, in practice. In principle, yes; everything which can be kept private, should be. But Amazon knowing what page I'm on just doesn't discomfit me, the way the prospect of some company being able to read my messages does.

The pro-privacy crowd needs to choose it's battles.

The most common response about online privacy is "what does is matter if X knows Y? I've got nothing to hide".

People already don't care, and I guarantee they also don't care that Amazon knows what page they are on in the book the are reading. There are much bigger issues to focus on

Can't you do lost of those things by sending encrypted data to Amazon, and getting back the encrypted data from them? They act as a storage in most cases, not as a server, no?

You'd have to figure out some kind of secure key sharing mechanism between phones, tablets, web browsers, and e-readers.

Or, you can trust that a position in a book (bookmarks, notes, etc.) is not sensitive information that really needs to be encrypted. This is my - perhaps overly pragmatic - position.

I think the books you read and your annotations should definitely be protected. Imagine reading about Tienanmen Square in China.

Simply purchasing/owning a book on that topic would be enough for an oppressive government like China, they wouldn't need to know where in the book you were exactly.

Some books sold in China are edited for that market. If you highlight a passage that shouldn't be in your book, you could be in trouble.

If I can't think of a way to abuse me by having my data, it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't. I would really rather avoid all this discussion by them not having my data to begin with.

If you know of an alternative that offers client-side encrypted sync, I'd love to hear it. I'm considering alternatives to the Kindle as well, even if for reasons unrelated to the analytics.

I wish I'd knew:-)

>You'd have to figure out some kind of secure key sharing mechanism between phones, tablets, web browsers, and e-readers.

Yeah, it's not like Amazon can afford security experts to work on this or anything.

>Or, you can trust that a position in a book (bookmarks, notes, etc.) is not sensitive information that really needs to be encrypted.

This is an ignorant position that has been proven wrong over, and over, and over again. Private data should be secure by default, because otherwise eventually someone will figure out how to abuse it. This is a lesson form bazillion fraud schemes and social engineering hacks everyone in tech should have learned by now.

I've been thinking about PII in this context.

If all data is secured by default, then the identification of PII is not about deciding to secure that data, it is about identifying where we might impose (and often this isn't required, but now we can consider it) additional UX burden or complexity in order to add _additional_ security.

Amazon could also afford to fill the Panama canal with dirt and reunite the American continents, but why would they? A dozen angry (potential) customers on HN is hardly motivation.

The data is encrypted.

Encrypted between me and Amazon (such that Amazon could see the content), or encrypted between my devices such that Amazon can't see the content (but only the encrypted form)?

>the location data doesn't need to be sent with every page turn, for example

why not? if i open a book on my phone that i stopped reading on my kindle, i want it to open to the last location i read to on my kindle. not ten pages back because it doesn't sync data every page turn for some imaginary privacy benefit.

>To sync a "last read page" across devices, you need to send a location back to Amazon. It's also appropriate to tie a location to a device, so you can pick the appropriate device to sync your position from.

Why is location needed for that? Shouldn't a device id and account work just fine? I don't need to share my location to sync other devices.

Why is syncing across devices not opt-in? Why doesn't Kindle tell you which data it sends and when?

Sync is opt-in.

And, good question. It would be nice, though I'm sure they've buried it in their multi-page privacy doc somewhere.

EDIT: No, it's not opt-in. Reading failure on my part.

>Sync is opt-in.

https://www.epubor.com/whispersync-for-kindle.html

"And "Whispersync for Books" is enabled on Kindle Fire, Kindle devices and apps by default."

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/amazon-whispernet-work-58992...

"Whispersync is on by default in all new Kindles, but you can turn off the option on individual devices if you have multiple readers attached to your account."

https://ebookfriendly.com/how-to-disable-data-collection-kin...

"How to disable data collection on your Kindle or Fire device"

Crud, I read that wrong; you're correct in that it's opt-out.

That said, given that it provides a high value to the end user (I use it daily), I personally don't mind.

The aggravating bit - beyond the fact that Amazon doesn't let you opt out, is that this sometimes affects performance. Switching over to the kindle app occasionally hangs. Killing the app and restarting it usually works, but there are times when I have to go to airplane mode and kill and restart the app just to open a book!

You can opt out, at least on the physical devices.

But yeah, the Kindle iOS app is crap in many ways - the one that bugs me is how hot it makes my phone. I mean, WTF?