Fighting to Shut Out the Real India | Hacker News Reader

Fighting to Shut Out the Real India

nytimes.com

107 pointsmjfern86 comments

Here is a snapshot of India that is helpful to folks not living here.

The 2011 census just came out. What is the literacy rate? 75% only. That means 25% Indians can't read or write. Thats 300 million Indians that can't read and write. 300 million. Thats a big number. If you focus on that number, you will think that India is in a bad state. Doing pathetic. No hope.

But you need to go back a bit. In the last 10 years alone (from 2001 to 2011), the number of literate people in India has risen from 650 million to 900 million. That is a huge jump. A shift of 250 million people to literacy in 10 years.

That is India. Statistically - when compared to other countries - seems to be in the dumps. But improving at a rate that is crazy to comprehend.

India is like that dorky adolescent kid with warts and pimples popping up all over the face. Give her 20-30 more years.

>India is like that dorky adolescent kid with warts and pimples popping up all over the face. Give her 20-30 more years.

Now that's a poorly chosen metaphor! What will the adolescent girl do in 20-30 years, replace pimples with wrinkles?!

Look like a dignified adult with some grey hairs & some worthwhile life experiences behind her, given that she is always growing & learning?

> Not surprisingly, a recent law that forces private schools to reserve 25 percent of the seats for financially disadvantaged children has become controversial

http://righttoeducation.in/media/no-objection-25-quota-say-p...

This is an interesting development. So one of the biggest problems to providing reservations (as they are called) is that the system is so corrupt it is very difficult to ensure that only the needy and deserving get the benefit. There are tons of people who "scam" these schemes by forging documents of income and or caste (which are usually the basis for these reservations). Until the underlying problem is fixed, these schemes, although noble will only be so on paper.

Can you imagine if private schools in the US had to do the same? Currently the top-tier private colleges in the US admit only about 10% of their students from the bottom 50% of the income distribution.

80% of lower caste children in rural India are dropping out of schools before they can complete 10th class because forward caste parents brainwash their children to practice casteism in schools.

http://cablesearch.org/?id=05NEWDELHI4761&v

Wonderful article. Its absolutely true.

Its a democracy for the world to see but its really corrupt and like the article says the rich can do absolutely anything and get away with it while the poor are stuck and their lives never get any better. There is really no hope for India because the educated middle-class already earn a very decent living and so is happy. In any country the middle class is the catalyst for change and I don't see that happening in India. They are too happy with where India (their own life) is and so they have a fierce sense of nationalism that everything is good. Just go to /r/india on reddit and see how people blindly attack anyone criticising India as ignorant and a wannabe westerner.

It is dummy democracy. 80% Indians are surviving on 20 rupees/day. Do you think these people can vote as per their conscience in elections?

Yes, they do and they did. Nitish Kumar, the Chief Minister of Bihar(a backward state), was reelected with absolutely majority due to his honest and dedicated efforts during his 1st 5 year tenure. Poor/Rich, people of all castes/religions, voted unanimously for him and his good work.

I hope you know India is not a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy And people do not elect a Chief Minister in India.

Another wrong and irrelevant comment. I live in India. I am from Bihar. I know how my state works and how my Chief Minister is elected every 5 years. Both the main parties are headed by their respective leaders. Nitish Kumar heads the JDU and there has never been any doubt, before or after the elections, whatsoever, that he was going to be the Chief Minister. Yes, the party can elect anyone as the chief minister but thats purely in theory. In practice, every party throws forward their chief candidate for the Chief Minister post and they have always stuck to it - in every state - over last 60 years of Independence.

I suggest you stop trolling HN with your predefined bias against India. Yes, we have problems and we acknowledge it more than anyone else but you should stop trolling.

As per Transparency International India, Bihar is the most corrupt state in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar#Economy

Keep your corruption/suggestions to yourself.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Forward_caste community has brainwashed Indian voters to believe that voting in elections = democracy and a solution to https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Caste_system_... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Corruption_in... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Poverty_in_in...

You have no basis but online links that have no relation to the transformation that is underway. Try and search around about the transformation of Bihar over last 5 years since Nitish Kumar came to power and how it is the 2nd fastest growing state in India and how corruption has taken a steep dive. It's okay. You want to hate, do so. I ll pass.

Yeah they do!

So basically, just like the U.S.?

Yes you are right, India and the U.S. have a lot in common. The big difference here in the U.S. is the larger middle class compared to India. The other two big factors are corruption which is much more widespread and the caste system which won't go away anytime soon.

Despite all that I believe India has moved in the right direction in the last 20 years. I couldn't imagine how it would have been if not for the reforms of the nineties, which I personally believe has benefited all. Yes the rich have gotten richer but the opportunities that didn't exist before do now for the middle class and the poor. People don't have to depend on the government to provide jobs.

Yeah, the 90s opening of the market crushed the Indian economy and removed a huge chunk of bad companies.

Its good to remember that what stands today, is what was left after being opened up to the big bad world without any assistance. India has built its entire tech base, and IT ability from scratch.

Or rather, the US seems to be on its way to becoming like that. Currently, because of state investment in public infrastructure - civil rights, highways, public schools and universities, regulations etc - over the past century, the middle class enjoyed relative leisure and comfort even as the very rich lived out much more comfortable lives. All that seems to be diminishing because of regulatory capture and the wealth feedback loop created over the last 20-30 years.

Do you truly believe civil rights are worse today than in the past? More people attend university than ever before. The poor manage to survive quite nicely, and most of them don't work at all. Could you please explain how you believe things are diminishing in more detail?

Something I've noticed - when someone says "just like the US" about a nation like India, they've almost certainly never left the US. At most, they've been to the EU, and often think Mexico is the depths of poverty).

Not civil rights in itself, but because of economic issues, e.g. severe cutbacks to state universities, deliberate anti-union policies etc, the economically disadvantaged are impacted much more, which indirectly affects civil rights.

Edit:

The poor manage to survive quite nicely, and most of them don't work at all

Do you mean Lucky Duckies: http://www.gocomics.com/features/search/Lucky%20Ducky

How are well paid government workers the "economically disadvantaged"? And for that matter, how does reducing subsidies for a service consumed primarily by wealthier people (a college education) harm the economically disadvantaged?

Smug comics which preach to the choir are great, but I like statistics more. Here are statistics on the work habits of the US poor (about 1 in 4 poor people works): http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2007.pdf

Here are statistics showing that the poor consume about 2-3x what they produce: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ce/standard/2009/income.txt

(In India, obviously the stats look nothing like this.)

"How are well paid government workers the "economically disadvantaged"?"

Speaking for myself, most government workers do something that's more valuable to society than what I do for a lot less money. That probably holds true for 90% of the HN readership, although I suppose YMMV for the societal contribution of serving ads and flipping bits vs administrating social security.

The issue is not about state employees at the university, but who can afford the education there. Here in California, the Master Plan for Education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_High...) had the goal of providing education for everyone, and it is not unlikely that that is a significant reason for California's strong economy. But that is being eroded gradually.

Anyway, obligatory XKCD reference: http://xkcd.com/386/

Funny and quite true.

And it is also true for many other countries, with a mostly poor population. All over the world, one of the big benefits of wealth is the ability to build your own "island" or castle.

But here's an interesting question. If we force everyone with wealth and power to live like the masses, then the only way to improve their lot would be to improve all of society or emigrate. Would we then see a much stronger push against corruption and bad economic policy?

This is obviously a purely intellectual exercise for fun. Some people believe that at some point a country's oligarchy will try to improve things for everyone at least a little bit. This is a very naive view of wealth and power in a chaotic country.

The only ones who can, and some times do, push for reform are the masses. But mobilized masses have short attention spans and can never push for important details. The details remain the devil's domain. This is why masses can get rid of dictators, but everything after the dictator is a painfully slow grind of minuscule improvements.

I believe a slow grind of minuscule improvements describes India's past 50 or so years quite well. Things are improving, just not nearly enough within any one human life time.

> If we force everyone with wealth and power to live like the masses, then the only way to improve their lot would be to improve all of society or emigrate.

I think this is called comunism (as Marx intended, not as was executed in the USSR, Cuba, and any other place in practice).

The problem with this is that if you don't allow for the existence of official channels the rich can use to improve their lot then there is no point in being rich, so most people will either not bother and work as little as they can to live or find unofficial channels where they can have power to improve their lives (see the communist parties in the former USSR and China).

Of course, communism can arguably work, but how to do so is still an open problem.

I think this is called comunism

I think communism is chiefly defined by public ownership.

What I propose is an obviously crazy impractical outlawing of owning big houses with much better then average infrastructure. It would still be perfectly legal to have tons of money and lobby your politicians hard. So think of it as law against big, fancy houses, and gated communities.

The scale of poverty is huge. With 1.2 billion, the number of poor and destitute will always be high. This is unfortunate but true.

I go to India a lot and do see people locking themselves in from reality. BUT, there are many more who do make an effort to improve the lives of the poor.

Anywho, India is India and will always be India. So if you don't like it, don't go there. If you live there and don't like it, leave. Otherwise, take it all in!

The article gives several examples of how things have changed from a few decades ago. Likewise, a few decades from now, things would be different as well.

This too shall pass.

For a Western it is quite easy to understand Indians and Indian society. If you meet anybody from India, ask him "What Is Your Caste?"

This is one of best writeup on current life in India.

A westerner's perspective.

Recent trip from bangalore airport to hotel. Started with a clean, hot dry airport exit escorted to your air-conditioned car by hotel driver. Then briefly open fields. Then 30 minutes of red dirt road, with freeway in view barely in construction. With slums all along the street, with metal shacks aptly named 'hotels', with heaps of trash openly laid out and eaten by cows, with homeless kids/adults in bare feet walking along side of roads, with groups of women on their knees dusting the road with brooms. Then briefly comes tons of cars and people walking in between traffic. Tons of cars and people. Some semblance of city began to form. 2 story buildings. Then you're at your 5 star hotel in a 'nice' neighborhood. Across from slums and heaps of garbage and dirt roads and massive traffic and beggars everywhere. This is with no raining, which is usually 8 months out of the year.

Recent trip from Mumbai to airport hotel. Armed guards at outside the airport entrance. Taxi drivers mobbing you, trying to grab your bags. Your driver drives on local road as he speaks in his broken english how low this fare is, and you seemed to be stuck in traffic for an eternity what should've taken only 20 minutes. Highway barely constructed, with no workers in sight. Loud motor cars everywhere, no semblance of order. Tons of beggars/slums fills the side of the road. Nearby, restaurants, all with heaps of garbage sitting outside the establishments, attracting only the locals. Some fancy houses appear, but the are lost in the sea of ravage. A woman with a malnourished kid comes to your taxi and knocks on your window and begs. A woman with a bloody stump knocks on your taxi window, but your knowlegable friend says that's fake blood, although the missing hand is real. Then after a while, you arrive in a 5 star hotel, in the most posh neighborhood/city in India, not 10 seconds away from slums/garbage/cows/dirt. And this is with no rain.

A 3rd world country, with massive population and corruption and squatter's rights and caste system and religious fervor and terrible weather/land. Same economic progress in 1980s with China, but vastly diverged since.

I don't see a way out for India.

Sure from the western perspective, it looks hopeless. But as an Indian, I am hopeful and not too displeased with the progress. Let me tell you why.

One of the central government cabinet minister may even do jail time -- now that is a good thing. A few years ago , corruption was never punished ; corruption was worn as a badge of honor.

We have more private sector jobs than ever and the number of such jobs is increasing. We have better roads and more are being built. Sure there is a a lot of traffic -- but we adjust and we do manage to get to wherever it is that we wanted to go.

Now you may think that I speak as a "upper class Indian" . That may be true now but I was not worn into wealth. Everyone I know in India has a better life than their parents did. There is more upwards social mobility than ever.

Now for the famous caste system. It is slowly disappearing as India is slowly transforming from an agrarian society into an industrial society. It is ever present but a while lot less ominous than westerners would like to believe. In western societies , people of color are stopped and harassed by police just because they look different. The caste system is less intrusive in our lives in India. Yes it is loathsome and horrible and it will take some time for it to disappear in the industrial India. But we don't get profiled ,harassed or stopped on account of caste.

The armed guards at hotel entrances are not to ward of thugs or drug dealers and they are a relatively new phenomenon; they are 'cause of our 'lovely' neighbors to the west.

Of course, I can't expect you to see India the way I do. I have it better than my dad. My kid will have a better life than I do. And that is why I am hopeful.

Yesterday In a shocking incident, the office room and furniture used by a senior government official belonging to a Sheduled Caste community were 'cleansed' by sprinkling cowdung water, allegedly by some employees shortly after his retirement from service.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/retired-dalits-office-clea...

I am sorry to say this, but I don't think your kid will have a better life than you do. Here's why:

We're in the start (some say middle) of a worldwide economic depression. So far, massive printing of currencies have saved the day, but not for very long, as food/oil prices have skyrocketed within the past few months. For the next 10-15 years, we'll be suffering from high structural unemployment as well as higher cost of living, after interest rate goes up around the world. There is oversupply everywhere. Meanwhile technology innovations continue to reduce human worker demands.

Short of an another miraculous technology boom or world war, we will not exit the global bear market for the foreseable future.

I wish I could downvote you. Not for, because you are wrong, but because one can make any reasonable sounding claim about future and get away with it.

Oil prices have been especially kept artificially high by Oil Producing countries. And think about it, if they go high enough may be middle class people will start using Public Transport (and start caring about Public Transport). Rising oil prices is not an issue.

If you visit India again or just contemplate the differences between India and America, you'll see that A LOT of the GDP in the USA is generated via internal trade. And this happens because the USA is an efficient economy, with a lot of know how (i.e., "techonology" in the abstract form). India is progressing towards making it's systems efficient thereby allowing internal trade.

You seem to think that exporting goods is the only way to absorb extra industrial and service capacity. Yes, if you want do things double quick. But if you're OK with doing it ploddingly (like India is), a gradual ramp up of internal demand (due increased economic efficiency + scientific inputs) can also lift up everybody's standard of living.

Remember, there's actually not that much of a dearth of capital in India (people love to hoard gold; land is an asset etc). But there is a dearth of investment. Anyway, I'm repeating myself.

Yep, the speed does not matter as much as understanding the goal, esp. when resources become limited. And no doubt, India has deeper experience with operating on low resources, than nowadays western world does.

The 60 years old Gandhi paradigm is still reusable with modern tools today, compare e.g. with mobile/Internet impact on village production business.

Greer on Gandhi economical paradigm: "His suggestion, to condense some very subtle thinking into too few words, was that a nation that had a vast labor force but very little money was wasting its time to invest that money in state-of-the-art industrial plants; instead, he suggested, the most effective approach was to equip that vast labor force with tools that would improve their productivity within the existing structures of resource supply, production and distribution.

Instead of replacing India's huge home-based spinning and weaving industries with factories, for example, and throwing millions of spinners and weavers out of work, he argued that the most effective use of India's limited resources was to help those spinners and weavers upgrade their skills, spinning wheels, and looms, so they could produce more cloth at a lower price, continue to support themselves by their labor, and in the process make India self-sufficient in clothing production." - http://silverbearcafe.com/private/02.10/factories.html

Edit: added second paragraph in the citation

At various times westerners who dont understand the various forces at work in india have predicted the fall of india. Churchill said: India will fall back quite rapidly through the centuries into the barbarism and privations of the Middle Ages (source: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/speeches-of-w...)

Even we Indian barely understand all the forces and the interplay so I dont hold it too much against ppl who pass such pronouncements.

In the last 30 years or so in every parameter (health/education/life span) India has developed and this has happened to all stratas of sosciety. Please understand that I am not refuting the nytimes article. I am saying that poor people are also getting better.

Estimates for India also indicate a continuing decline in poverty. The revised estimates suggest that the percentage of people living below $1.25 a day in 2005 (which, based on India’s PPP rate, works out to Rs 21.6 a day in urban areas and Rs 14.3 in rural areas in 2005 ) decreased from 60% in 1981 to 42% in 2005. Source: http://www.worldbank.org.in/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/SOUTHA...

Yes, the rich are getting richer but the poor are also getting a bit better.

I have hope.

Who's predicting the fall of India? I think what's being predicted is the non-rise of India.

India follows the "Sheep Herd" mentality. The whole country's economy is based on people getting into "Profitable" domains mostly following the success of a pioneer in the field. The most recent example of this ideology is the "Business Process Outsourcing" industry. New BPO units are propping up here and there at a dime a dozen leading to a quality deterioration in the final deliverable. This process will continue till a saturation level is reached and then they will wait till another "Killer" domain picks up momentum. Till then India will be in a so called "Calm Period" where nothing great and major takes place.

the number of poor people living under $1.25 a day has increased from 421 million in 1981 to 456 million in 2005

The population increased from ~700million to ~1 billion over that time frame. An 8% increase in the number of people living in poverty while the population grew 42% is still progress. The US has a similar history economic growth lifted most poeple out of poverty, but it took wealth redistribution to reduce the number of people living in abject poverty. (Now we have beggars making 20 times what an Indian day labor makes, but 100 years ago things where vary different.)

PS: The simple poverty numbers say vary little. If a farmer in the third world with a wife and and five kids he is unlikely to get out of poverty any time soon. But, with a reasonable education his kids can lead a much better life.

On 4th August 1932 Round Table Conference, British Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald gave autonomy/independence to Muslims/Christians/Anglo-Indians/Sikhs/SC/ST communities in India. But Gandhi colluded with Ambedkar and foiled it to favor forward caste community in India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award

I am an Indian, My father used to tell me how his mother (my grandma) helped him pay the tuition fees of his college by selling the silk from her marriage dress (Marriage dress, is an important thing for an Indian, Most Indians marry only once in his life :-) ) (Tuition fee was like 50 rupees (1 USD) ) back in 1970's

My mom used to tell me that it took her 1 year to save money for getting a table fan back in 1985. (my parents were teachers in a school)

Things have changed a lot in India after globalization. I am sure India is progressing, Every beggar in the street has cellphone.

It took united states 200 years to where it is now. We just got independence before 60 years. Please do not compare the living conditions of both countries.

Yes India has lot of problems, caste, religious extremism, lack of quality education, Corruption, Poor infrastructure, vast gap between the rich and the poor. I am sure she will eventually sort these things out.

"Same economic progress in 1980s with China, but vastly diverged since."

I don't get this. The current GDP of India is same as the GDP of China for the fiscal year 2003. [1][2] How is it "vastly diverged"?

Besides, India is growing fast (almost as fast as China) with many economists predicting that India will overtake China to become the world's fastest growing major economy soon and will likely remain so for years to come. [3][4] Citi group recently went as far as saying that India will be the biggest economy in the world by 2050. [5]

For westerners the poverty scenes in India can be depressing but for Indians the future looks bright.

[1] http://bit.ly/eNhHOj

[2] http://bit.ly/dNszZ2

[3] http://bit.ly/hhraFQ

[4] http://bit.ly/fm0MR2

[5] http://bit.ly/fyWktP

1980: India 181 B China 188 B

2010: India 1.5 T China 5.7 T

regardless of future predictions it seems to support 'the vastly diverged since' claim. China's economy is almost 4x that of India's today where they were virtually the same size in 1980. That brings a lot of concern over democratic vs non-democratic in terms of bringing economic growth to the people.

China liberalised its economy in 1979 and India liberalised its economy in 1991 from Soviet styled socialism to American styled capitalism. Both countries grew rapidly from respective years. It's nothing to do with democracy/non-democracy, IMO.

China is prospering without India's dummy democracy. Indians are brainwashed to believe that (voting in elections == democracy) and a solution to all problems.

This article is fiery and it has every reason to be. You can replace India with Russia, Brazil or any other country which has a dysfunctional government apparatus that is prone to endemic corruption. I wouldn't say there's no way out for India (we are in the midst of youth led democratic revolutions in middle east). Anna Hazare, a highly respected social activist, is fasting in Delhi and he is catalysing and crystallizing many Indian youths' feelings and aspirations to fix the root of this problem (my friends in Chennai, India are fasting to show support). I am optimistic of the future.

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

- Robert M. Hutchins

That said I don't think you can look at India with a western "orderly" "everything must make sense" mindset. There is definitely some progress made and it is slow but overall the direction is right. If you look at the scale of the problems India has gotten herself into - population, scarce natural resources, education, corruption - generations have had nothing but apathy towards. But the newer generations are not like that - with increased Internet penetration (my home town, a rural area has 2Mbps always on broadband at cheap prices!), loosening grip of social/religious dogmas and greater interest in public affairs things stand a fair chance towards betterment.

To give you a few examples - when I was a kid (20 years ago) the maid that worked for my mom kept having kids year after year. My mom never thought of it until one day I suddenly yelled at her (overlooking the 5 kids of the maid in our backyard) that she had a duty to educate the maid about availability of contraceptives. Back then that was a radical thing for me to talk about such things at my age with my mom. Turned out our maid did not know that these things existed - a year later my mom had her operated at her will of course and the yearly flow of kids stopped!

There is certainly more social activism than there was 20 years ago and it is well organized and communicated thanks to improved communication tools - I know of 3 court cases where justice was done due to public activism - a well known politico's son almost got away with murder before public forced a retrial and got the guy back in jail.

There is also a crusade against corruption - this time with better results and more public support than ever before. The Govt. was forced to agree with the demands of a long time anti-corruption activist Anna Hazare - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Hazare-wins-anti-co... .

Cell phones have made lives better for a lot of poor people - my brother was telling me his paper boy has a BlackBerry and the fruit vendor had a Symbian phone!

Point being that it's a huge problem that has so far been dealt with apathy but that is changing fast. As more and more the older gen gets out, as more and more new educated people take matters in their control, it is bound to change more for the better.

There are no silver bullets in this - it's an ongoing thing that requires continued public involvement. There is no dearth of talented and well meaning people in India that cannot tackle these issues. It's only for lack of interest that it is languishing - as long as that is on the rise I have my hopes!

Anti-corrupt people are considered to be incompetent in Indian society. Lokpal is going to be another epicenter for corruption.

You have been constantly adding comments throughout the thread which add little in way of enlightenment or perspective. I have know idea why you have an axe to grind, but please be more constructive in your efforts.

I can abuse India eloquently, and criticize her very vehemently, having suffered at the receiving end of its failings. Complaining about them is a common Indian past time and we are all past masters of it.

That said, there is more to be done than just slanging out negative comments without constructive suggestions or criticism.

Lokpal = 5 Corrupt Cabinet Ministers + 5 Confused Desis

Nothing new here. Move along.

This is not about you & me.

Yeah we have had this talk for decades - it's now time to stop that and do something about it. No offense but the belief that things will change themselves magically while I sit and complain - hilarious at the best!

Don't get me wrong; I love the optimism and determination and endurance by the young people in India I saw. But they're running out of time.

Investment in emerging markets is drying up (and will be for the foreseeable future), as developed countries are starting to hike interest rates to fight inflation. Oil and food prices are skyrocketing. So one side is jobs growth slows. On the other side is cost of living goes up. Same conditions around the world, but when you are living in India, that really hurts. And when jobs start to go to other countries with better skilled labors (better English fluency, better city infrastructure) such as philippines and malaysia and vietnam, watch out.

Honestly, considering the following facts: 1) The amount of cash still sloshing around in world markets, 2) That interest rates on loans in India are around 14-17%, 3) The fact that the Reserve Bank of India has not started to print money like the Fed, and 4) India has been hiking far earlier than developed nations - I'd say investment capital is not going to be an issue.

(Let me further add, that working in a financial firm which works with PE funds, I can assure you that interest in the emerging markets will NOT end.)

We, and almost all 3rd world nations, are also FAR more sensitive to inflation than the west, and have been working to curtail it for a while.

With regards to losing jobs to the Philippines and Malaysia - their competition is actually something that will do wonders for our competitiveness.

Perhaps what people don't see is the huge amount of work going into HR development in this country. For all those outsourcing jobs, India has had to take the HR manual, and rebuild it at a scale most people would not have expected.

For example the recent WSJ article on talent crunches in India - well that article was several years late. Vivek Wadhwa already wrote a comprehensive piece on how talent in India doesn't measure up in 2008. http://hir.harvard.edu/how-the-disciple-became-the-guru?page...

Its worth a read (also informative for any Indian entrepreneurs who are trying to figure out recruitment- which is a huge pain in the country.)

I think Indians should break free like USSR.

Except Russia, remaining USSR republics are relatively free from corruption and prospering rapidly. http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/

   Georgia - 12,
   Estonia - 17,
   Lithuania - 23
   Latvia - 24,
   Armenia - 48,
   Azerbaijan - 54,
   Kazakhstan - 59,
   Belarus - 68,
   Moldova - 90,
   Russia - 123,
   INDIA - 134
   Tajikistan - 139,
   Ukraine - 145,
   Uzbekistan - 150.

Break from what? How do those numbers support the breakup argument? :) Also the numbers are for ease of doing business and are not predictors of future growth, HDI etc. Also are the numbers high for those countries because they broke up? Also the US is number 5 in that list and is united.

There were 500+ Princely States and India never existed till Portuguese/French/British arrived in 1505.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Indian_history

Thats why the Portuguese/French/British arrived in 1505 and stayed till 1947.

We (India) are prospering because we are united.

Pakistan and China are trying to help India 'break free' but I am sure they won't succeed.

I have visited almost all states in India. And the current status is:

   Kerala - c/o Gulf
   Tamilnadu - c/o LTTE
   Andhra Pradesh - Telangana
   Karnataka - c/o Cauvery
   Bihar,UP - Their weapons are sophisticated than Indian Army's
   Bengal - c/o China.
   Seven sister states - Instant death if you are non-Assamese.
   Punjab - c/o Khalistan
   Kashmir - Kidding?
   Rajasthan - They call you 'Paradesi'.
   Maharastra - c/o Vidarbha.
   UP - Bundelkhand, Poorvanchal etc
   Chattisgarh - c/o Maoism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movem...

"Seven sister states - Instant death if you are non-Assamese. "

From your phrasing I am assuming you are not Assamese. It's really amazing that you are able to comment from the grave! :D.

Regarding TN, do you mean the LTTE which was decimated by Sri Lanka?

It's really amazing that you are able to comment from the grave! :D.

Grt idea, please iplement on USA .. all the best

>A luxurious car with an unspeaking driver who works for 12 hours every day at less than $200 a month,

Again. Comparing earnings in terms of USD is meaningless. $200/month in India is vastly different from earning the same amount in the US.

Sad that even some HN'ers are taken in by this. In comments the other day about outsourcing it was about Indian IT workers working for peanuts. Let me tell you, first compare the prices of services and commodities and then compare salaries and you will see the discrepancy.

>Rags-to-riches stories in India are popular but rare.

Rare? Well, I don't know the metric that the author is using for 'riches' but it certainly is not rare.

Let me reveal a little secret. 80% Indians are willing to migrate to USA for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility at $200/month salary.

I don't think so, can you prove your little secret and what social reasons would that be? just curious to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

The only place where 'India' was mentioned for the link you provided is at the last section towards the end of the page. It just talks about technological advances and how people are related to that, but it doesn't say people are migrating countries because of that.

You could have seen caste (in 1st para), unless you wanted to willingly suppress it.

I really cannot undertand what you are trying to express. I really don't see how 'caste' is linked to the article and your initial comment "80% Indians are willing to migrate to USA...". Please try to understand what the problem is and post comments on how that can be solved, that will make the conversation interesting and live. I am not trying to suppress anything and i see most of the comments here have gone in different directions.

I said in plain English that 80% Indians are willing to migrate to USA or Western Nations at $200/month salary due to lack of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility in India.

I think you need to understand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

At the same time lots of Indian's currently staying in US are migrating back to India. There used to huge difference in earning but the gap is now narrowing down.

It is quite easy to understand Indians and Indian society. If you meet anybody from India, ask him "what is your caste?"

Answer: Probabaly higher than yours because only only low class people ask crass questions.

Here's the book to actually understand India:- "Late victorian holocausts and the making of the third world". http://www.amazon.com/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Maki...

As Nehru and others had observed, poverty in India is highly correlated with the length of British rule in that part of India, Bengal being the poorest and Punjab the richest. This is actually true of the world in general - compare Africa with Japan - prosperity is highly correleted with the colonial experience a country had.

Caste is almost irrelevant - the Gini coefficient which measures inequality is much higher in the US than in India.

India which was 25% of the world's economy in 1800 was essentially crushed by the British to make way for their industrialization via a captive market. Internal trade in India was crushed by internal tariffs. Railroads which had a positive network effect in the US, had the opposite (destructive) network effect in India killing its manufacturing base and driving millions to unemployment and dependance on agricultural land which lead to the widespread poverty you see today.

One of the most corruption nations in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India

836 million people live on 20 rupees a day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

Pakistan is a better nation to do business than India & China http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/

Indians among most corrupt while doing business abroad http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-...

Economic mobility != Social mobility

You are probably a low class person.

I was once told that if Hell is here then Heaven is also here. The Heaven is hidden from material eyes.300 - 1000 years back it was present even in the material form.But it attracted lot of crusaders. So now the heaven is hidden by poverty and slums.The heaven is in the form of spiritual knowledge which can lead you to self relaization.Only people actively on the spiritual path can relate to this.

Typical liberal media crap

Which is why I believe that nothing competes with a Zombie Apocalypse as a social equalizer.

In all honesty, that was not meant to be mean. Really, do you think Zombies choose between Rich or Poor?

I am an Indian, has lived in US for the past 12 years. Every time I go to India, I am all the more reminded of how the so-called progress has not penetrated in to the lower stratas of the society.

I use public transportation every time I am home, not because I cannot afford to shut out the outside world, but I love watching humanity upclose. To ride in a bus along with 60-70 others, people whose sons I might have gone to school with, finding familiar faces in the crowd, eavesdrop on conversations, and for a moment think of their lives, and their dreams. You cant do that while tucked away in the backseat of a Mercedes.

Class based social racism is a real problem in India. While trying to catch up with their neighbors, we ignore the ones getting pushed deeper and deeper in to the depths of poverty.

Another social equalizer? Education. And the fact that most of its free (regardless of how bad it sometimes can be in India's public schools), I am proud of my country.

I see you are a fast learner as to what sort of comments are appreciated here. You two comments are like the before and after photos for a fad diet plan. Thanks for clarifying, and welcome to HN!

Jingoism != Patriotism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

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