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Comment by ceejayoz | Hacker News Reader

N95s are still quite difficult to find here in the US.

Cloth and non-medical disposable masks are not considered protective (although it's likely they block some inbound particles, and there's evidence they may thus result in a gentler illness on average) but do reduce transmission.

You're right that there are multiple kinds of masks; in the US, it's kinda pointless to talk about N95s. No one's wearing them, in part because they're hard to get, and in part because our anti-maskers threw enough of a fit about fairly comfortable ones.

> The other issue you miss is that there really has not been good evidence of outdoor transmission, and the claims of covid living on outdoor surfaces for 7 days also are suspect.

You'll actually find me elsewhere on this thread noting that outdoors tends to be safe, so I'm not sure what statement of mine you're arguing with here.

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> N95s are still quite difficult to find here in the US.

Yes, our government has been incompetent all around. That's a bad thing.

If the country can't gear up production of masks to fight a pandemic, why am I supposed to believe we could do anything of meaning competently? I know I'm a lot less impressed with our military's readiness if we ever get into a real war than I was a year ago. We've shown we're very good at throwing money at fraudsters and very little about actually producing things we need ourselves.

We also seem to care very little about over a million deaths, if we go with something like a 0.5% fatality rate. Puts the reaction to 9/11 and the whole "how dare you disrespect our troops" racist reaction to athletes protesting into perspective...

I don't understand the people who go from "wow, we've handled this badly" to "we might as well never try anything again," though.

That should be the motivation to start paying more attention, from local politics all the way up, not give up.

> We also seem to care very little about over a million deaths, if we go with something like a 0.5% fatality rate. Puts the reaction to 9/11 and the whole "how dare you disrespect our troops" racist reaction to athletes protesting into perspective...

That is something to ponder. What does this say about us as a people? "Hey, we must retaliate, they attacked us!!" vs "Hell no I will not do one simple thing to protect others when we are all under attack from a virus." Hrm.

> What does this say about us as a people?

Nothing. A large fraction of the population does not feel this way at all.

A few bad apples spoil the bunch. A society made up of people that tolerate 20% of their own to be antisocial super spreaders is rotten to the core, even if the majority behaves responsibly.

There's an analogy to US police forces there, too. And to US politicians.

> Yes, our government has been incompetent all around.

I don't agree. This is not incompetence. It is malice. The government absolutely could be responding far better, and doing much of the same things every other western democracy is doing. A popular political position in this country is to prove that we need less gov't by making sure it appears incompetent. Combined with the similar political need to believe the virus is a hoax means we get zero federal response.

I wouldn't argue with that much when looking at federal government (judicial branch excluded), but state and local governments have been varied in their responses, and most have been far from malice. In Chicago, my local alderman has been reactive to events (including non-covid matters, like storm damage) and informative about public services (especially with testing sites). Helpful and without cynicism.

I believe that national politics gets an undue spotlight, and that local government (in particular) does not receive the attention warranted.

>>we get zero federal response.

Or we are a federalist society where by the states need to ask for assistance and not have the response mandated by the federal government.

We are a Union of States, and the states do and should have their own sovereignty from the federal government even in pandemic response.

What works in NY may not be the the same as what works in SD as an example so a Federal response is just not needed

The federal government doesn't seem to feel that same restraint when it comes to sending federal police into Portland to do community-level police work. And they are certainly more than happy to dictate many other aspects of our lives using whatever levers they have available. So why is it suddenly now that they can't provide any help in a pandemic because it's the States' responsibility?

>>The federal government doesn't seem to feel that same restraint when it comes to sending federal police into Portland to do community-level police work

While I disagree with the strategy and execution it is completely dishonest to say they were sent "to do community-level police work", they were sent to protect Federal Property after the City and State Governments failed to provide any protection for said property in the face of riots.

Again if it were me I would have just abandoned the building, and take with it all federal money letting Portland burn setting up a new Federal Courthouse (and giving the money that comes with it) to a new city in the region that would welcome the economic output of such a venue.

>>And they are certainly more than happy to dictate many other aspects of our lives using whatever levers they have available.

2 wrongs do not make a right... As a libertarian I advocate for the reduction in Federal power all the time at every level. It seems however Democrats only complain about federal power when a Republican is in charge, and Republicans only complain about Federal Power when a Democrat is in charge. Democrats and Republicans alike have transferred HUGE amounts of power from the Legislative to the Executive which enabled both Obama and now Trump to use that federal power in ways many people disagree with

> they were sent to protect Federal Property

They may wish that the local police were more successful at suppressing the violence, but that doesn't make it their responsibility to deal with the rioters. And why did they feel the need to meet the Portland protesters with violence but not the guys who occupied federal property out in Eastern Oregon? Politics, perhaps?

> 2 wrongs do not make a right

Sure. However, promoting the general welfare of people in the US by supporting pandemic response is a good bit less bad than creating arbitrary new regulations and laws that criminalize behavior which is really a local concern.

I find it kind of odd that there appears to be a huge overlap between the following two groups of people:

People that say government can or should impose/strongly-suggest/mandate mask wearing to protect overall population. Essentially the pro-mask wearing individuals.

Individuals that believe that we need end-to-end encryption, and that we can't have government watching our emails, tracking our movements, doing facial recognition, profiling, etc to stop violence.

In both cases, one could argue, the solutions being pushed-back against can effectively stop their respective problems. E.g. large scale big-brother surveillance of all individuals could effectively reduce crime to near zero. Just as 100% large scale government lockdowns/SIP and mask-orders can stop the spread of an epidemic.

Obviously I'm generalizing to try draw a comparison and point out the hypocrisy. Both of the problems require a suspension of some set of rights for "the greater good", yet we somehow balk at one (surveillance, facial recognition, centralized DBs, etc) whilst applauding and being offended when people question the other (mask wearing, SIP laws, social distancing, etc).

It's probably time that we decide as a society what we want instead of incessantly debating back and forth with contradictory requirements and expectations we impose on our governments.

Mass surveillance has a huge potential for abuse. Mass mask usage has what potential for abuse?

I'll agree it's not a perfect analogy. But if you want to press me on a potential abuse of a government-mandated and punishable order of wearing masks: Abuse of power by corrupt government officials that can use this extra and easily-fakeable "offense" in order to punish individuals that they don't like. Or what about the negative social aspect of creating laws that have neighbors secretly reporting each-other for this? Or the potential for child-traffickers to gag + hide the gag with a mask while they're busy engaging in trafficking?

If you sit long enough you can come up with a potential abuse for any government law or idea. Just as is done with mass-surveillance. What we don't do is sit down and come up with extraordinary ways and means for us to use powerful tools/ideas/solutions such as surveillance in a responsible and safeguarded manner that is not exploitable by bad individuals in government, or bad governments themselves.

> can use this extra and easily-fakeable "offense" in order to punish individuals that they don't like.

So they can fine them? There are already hundreds of offenses that can be used for that purpose and that can actually land you in jail.

> the negative social aspect of creating laws that have neighbors secretly reporting each-other for this?

Is that really happening? There is no special incentive for reporting people for not wearing masks.

> Or the potential for child-traffickers to gag + hide the gag with a mask while they're busy engaging in trafficking?

They could already do that, wearing masks was already legal.

> If you sit long enough you can come up with a potential abuse for any government law or idea. Just as is done with mass-surveillance.

False equivalence, the potential abuses from mass-surveillance are much more dangerous.

Governments spying on their people has been happening for decades and there is little evidence of any significant benefit for society, while the potential for abuse is obviously huge.

By comparison wearing masks to slow down infection rates of viruses/diseases that spread via nose/mouth secretions has centuries of evidence backing it up and the government doesn't really gain anything by enforcing the use of masks in places like supermarkets. Maybe it can artificially increase demand to benefit some mask manufacturers but that's it.

Do you still think it's hypocrisy?

The right to not wear a mask is not enshrined in the constitution.

Freedom of speech is another matter.

N95s are still quite difficult to find here in the US.

Yes. That's pathetic at this late date. Worse, many of the off-brand ones don't do much. Some tests found masks performing around the 20% level, instead of the 95% level. This problem should have been fixed months ago. Part of the problem is that manufacturers didn't want to invest in the equipment, because the epidemic was supposed to be over by now.

Good N95 masks use a clever technology. The inner layer is a stretched film with holes. That layer can stop particles smaller than the holes - it's an electret, with a permanent static charge. Anything solid small enough to get through the holes gets pulled to the edge of a hole electrostatically and sticks. This has the interesting property that it works better on smaller particles; the static charge pulls them in more easily. So these can filter solids far below the hole size. Masks lacking that technology either don't work or obstruct breathing too much.

3M 8210 masks work that way. You can get them expensively on eBay, and cheaply if you're willing to wait 60 days for delivery. The "8210 Plus" model has a better elastic strap, which mostly matters for long-term use or storage. Aging of the elastic band is the weak point in the base 8210 model.

There's a vast supply of cheap "surgical" masks available. At least get a supply of those. Only ones with a bendable nose clip. Anything that leaks around the nose is worthless.

Machines for making N95 masks are available for sale, although some of them look like prototypes and are far too slow.

How are you verifying they're real N95s if you're buying from eBay? And where can you buy them cheaply with the 60 day wait?

All verifiable sources I've seen have them reserved for medical personnel, although I haven't looked too hard.

So let me get this straight.

For some reason it is absolutely CRITICAL for me to not go outside to a beach, but it isn't critical for the folks lecturing me to get their act together and make masks that cost basically 10 cents to $1.50 and would allow myself and others to carry on productive and healthy activities?

This is the issue - YOU are not listening. People see through the pantomime. Google and apple have API's to help with exposure notification - no apps developed at national level and few at state level. Other countries went big on apps.

Sure, they may not work great, but there just is a total lack of effort to actually solve the problem.

Same thing with masks. Countries with fractions of our per capita GDP and income levels crank up huge mask production. Total availability - literally the post office handing them out. No, not N95's always, but KF94s and other very effective masks. We are still talking about mask availability?

Same thing with testing. I'm talking walk up no dr referral needed testing. My health care provider WILL NOT test unless you are basically dying. I had a collegue, a once in a lifetime chance to see family (10 years) came up. I told him, find a private pay / doesn't do insurance / doesn't deal with govt testing facility and get tested before traveling so you don't spread it by accident.

What about contact tracing. You have millions of folks unemployed, are paying out 1+ trillion in checks etc to all sorts of people, and you can't get a contact tracing program going. Your telling me none of these people can go down a call list and call folks up?

All I hear from health professionals is how they can't do anything about anything, nothing helps, except staying alone at home. Masks don't help if you don't wear them perfectly, masks can't be found, the apps won't really work so they aren't going to do that. PLEASE get a grip.

Masks will help - so get production going. Contact tracing - hire folks sitting around. Get the apps going, get testing up, get rears in gear. I think if we saw more credible action by the "proper authorities" lecturing us we'd all be more enthusiastic in doing our part (now we can't even get good masks or apps etc).

> For some reason it is absolutely CRITICAL for me to not go outside to a beach...

No. Beaches are quite safe.

> but it isn't critical for the folks lecturing me to get their act together and make masks that cost basically 10 cents to $1.50 and would allow myself and others to carry on productive and healthy activities?

It is! (It's not happening in the US, though.)

> This is the issue - YOU are not listening. People see through the pantomime. Google and apple have API's to help with exposure notification - no apps developed at national level and few at state level. Other countries went big on apps.

You seem to be ranting as if I'm supporting the current state of things. The current state of things is bad; the Feds are largely AWOL. States are muddling through with various levels of competency, mostly poorly.

Everything you're saying I agree with. The reaction to the pandemic has been absolute shit, and it leaves us in this position now - ongoing lockdowns, supply shortages, and the like. One need only look at Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, etc. to know it didn't have to be this way.

A argument I have seen made is that a national contact tracing could be utilized by the antichrist for thier identification procedure.

Why would they do that? They’ll no doubt control the credit agencies so there is no need for them to track anyone that has a credit card :/

>> N95s are still quite difficult to find here in the US.

No they are not. This misconception is absurd. I bought 200ct of KN95 in early April from AliExpress and got them in 10 days. They are still plentiful.

"I found some, therefore there's enough for 300 million people" is... skipping a few steps.

NPR article from today on even medical clinics and dentists still struggling to keep up N95 and other PPE supplies: https://www.npr.org/2020/08/19/903612006/yep-masks-and-prote...

N95's aren't KN95's, minor nitpick.

N95's are available on eBay as a black market ish item. Sellers come and go. I've bought dozens and given them to friends and family and use them when in an Uber.

KN95s are fragile, have crappy fit (leak air enormously, obvious if you wear glasses since they fog), and aren't very well regulated. But they are better than surgical or those ridiculous cloth masks.

> I bought 200ct of KN95 in early April from AliExpress

How certain are you they are authentic? Remember a couple years back when everyone bought glasses online for watching the solar eclipse and then it turned out they were all fake and wouldn't protect your eyes?

Especially given the economic incentive present today for anyone willing to sell "N95" masks.

KN95 != N95

N95s would have had to be produced non-stop for a decade prior to a pandemic to satisfy demand. We are 10 years behind schedule because our government only prepares for wars with $300M tanks instead of $100M stockpiles spread around the country.

this website was spun up to combat price gouging, they have also always had n95 masks in stock for a reasonable price.

https://maskorlando.com/

I don’t see any N95 masks on their website, which was last updated in July. Only KN95, which are far less protective.

> Cloth and non-medical disposable masks are not considered protective

> anti-maskers threw enough of a fit about fairly comfortable ones

How's this for a solution? Make masks with inhalation valves. You can find masks for dusty work with exhalation valves. It wouldn't be too big a change to reverse those valves. The lost protection against inbound particles isn't much, and the gain would be near elimination of the inherent discomfort of re-breathing CO2. I'm not an anti-masker, but I notice I'm a lot more comfortable with my mask off.

> The lost protection against inbound particles isn't much...

Why would it not be impacted? You'd be breathing in unfiltered air, and that's the main method of transmission.

> the gain would be near elimination of the inherent discomfort of re-breathing CO2

Which isn't really the comfort problem with N95s; they're just tight and hot.

> The lost protection against inbound particles isn't much...

Why would it not be impacted? You'd be breathing in unfiltered air, and that's the main method of transmission.

It would be impacted. You'd lose 100% of that benefit. But 100% is still not much.

>You'd lose 100% of that benefit. But 100% is still not much.

What would even be the point then? That'd just be reduced to obstinate anti-maskers wearing lace 'masks.'

The GPP describes an inhalation value.

The mask still protects other people from transmission by you.

Anti-maskers wearing lace 'masks' does not protect other people.

They are completely different, and that is the main point of mask wearing for the general public - to protect each other by reducing the chance of ourselves transmitting it if we have it.

Protecting others is the main point but protecting yourself is still very important and shouldn't be discarded.

You're pretty much back at ubiquitous and widely available surgical style masks at that point.

That’s uh. Silly. It defeats the entire purpose of a (nearly) sealed mask.

If you want to do that you can just wear a surgical mask instead.

Your comment assumes the entire purpose of a (nearly) sealed mask is to protect the wearer from incoming droplets or particles. I don't understand where this ignorance comes from; it's been widely known and repeated for some time that masks do much more to protect others from infection from the wearer. There's only a small amount of protection for the wearer from infection from others.

An inhalation valve preserves the mask's primary purpose by closing off during exhalation. It gives up a small amount of protection for the wearer, but obviously a lot of people aren't interested in that anyway and refuse to wear masks. With an inhalation valve they could at least protect others.

Where is this coming from that only a small amount of protection is provided to wearer. For a while I kept on posting studies showing the effectiveness of masks in protection infection by wearer, but it's hopeless - somehow public health authorities have gotten everything so muddled in folks minds.

You answered your own question.

> Where is this coming from that only a small amount of protection is provided to wearer [...] public health authorities

I clicked the HN link to your comments. I couldn't quickly find studies, just a mention of Korea having success with KN94 masks. I think it's safe to repost them now without being repetitive.

> Your comment assumes the entire purpose of a (nearly) sealed mask is to protect the wearer from incoming droplets or particles

It doesn’t just assume it. It’s the whole point of the masks.

If your aim is just to prevent making people sick, a surgical mask is just fine (exhibit A, normal doctors).

If your aim is to prevent getting sick yourself, a N95 respirator is a better choice (exhibit B, doctors treating COVID patients).

An inhalation valve does less to protect other people, because the expelled air still has to go somewhere, and will just blow out of the sides of the mask. It could theoretically go through the mask material if it was thin enough, but there’s probably too much pressure inside and it’ll burst out the sides.

That in reverse is the whole idea for masks with an exhalation valve. Breathing in creates negative pressure inside the mask, so air gets pulled inside through the mask. When breathing out the valve opens and releases the extra pressure without blowing out the sides (not really a problem per-se, but would compromise your protection).

> An inhalation valve does less to protect other people, because the expelled air still has to go somewhere, and will just blow out of the sides of the mask. It could theoretically go through the mask material if it was thin enough, but there’s probably too much pressure inside and it’ll burst out the sides

No, an inhalation valve makes 0.0% difference here. Here's a simple mental exercise to understand better. Imagine two people side by side. They are wearing identical masks, except one has an inhalation valve. They breathe in, pause, breathe out. In your mind, freeze the frame at the pause between breathing in and breathing out. At that moment, what's the difference between the two? Nothing. Now watch them breathe out. What's the difference? Still nothing.

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