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Comment by lazyjones | Hacker News Reader

> Fifth, the idea that people "will just move to another country" is very silly. If some people do leave, or start companies only in other jurisdictions, that just means there's a market opportunity for the many people who remain.

You're just name-calling here, it's not "silly" just because you don't like the fact. If they leave, they actually leave, period. Sweden's left-wing majority abolished the inheritance tax(!) because so many wealthy people left because of it (among them, the famous IKEA founder).

It's sad that your non-arguments and whinging are being upvoted by people who "feel" the rich ought to be taxed but refuse to think about the consequences.

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It is silly. Your example isn't even about a wealth tax, it's about an inheritance tax. Sweden has a 30% Capital Gains tax (likely the vehicle for any form of future wealth tax) and seems to be doing much better than the US.

Not in terms of class mobility. Yes the floor is higher but try accumulating wealth in Sweden.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

Sweden: 4th

Usa: 27th

Normally class mobility is not thought of as equivalent to accumulating wealth. In some ways they're almost opposites.

Sweden typically ranks much higher on class mobility measures than the USA.

> Normally class mobility is not thought of as equivalent to accumulating wealth. In some ways they're almost opposites.

Accumulating wealth is the only way poor people can stop being poor. Of course it's related to class mobility.

Sure, they're related, but they are not equivalent and even oppose each other in some ways.

A society that emphasises wealth accumulation above all else will have the privileged accumulate so much wealth it'll be nearly impossible for the poor to catch up, no matter how talented or hardworking.

One way of measuring class mobility is looking at your liklihood of finishing your life in a higher 'class' (variously definied) than you started it, or than your parents had. With that kind of measure, Sweden does extremely well. Certainly much better than countries like the USA, which arguably do emphasise making the accumulation of wealth (when you already have a lot of it) easier.

Is that right?

Sweden -- along with virtually all European countries other than Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg -- have much poorer middle classes than most US states.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/if-sweden-left-the-eu-and-joi...

https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-state...

Not sure what you mean by much poorer... in any case here is a list of European countries which have a higher median wealth per adult than the US, roughly in order of wealth per adult:

Switzerland, Iceland, Luxmbourg, Belgium, Ireland, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Italy, Malta, Norway.

If you go by mean wealth on the other hand, only Switzerland is higher than the US. But that is not a measure of middle class wealth.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

A relevant factor is that the US has both a much higher income and a vastly lower savings rate than in Europe. Also, much of the wealth in Europe comes from hereditary property, which is not really a thing in the US. As a baseline, median Americans have much higher discretionary income than in Europe, so it is only savings habits that prevent many of them from accumulating wealth.

Americans with savings rates that are comparable to Europeans end up accumulating tremendous wealth over their careers, even in the middle class. This is offset by the majority that spend every penny. That Americans don’t save their prodigious income is an unfortunate artifact of having multiple generations of nearly unbroken prosperity.

This does seem a bit of a chicken and egg issue. If more countries followed suit, same as much of them followed suit on almost all other taxation schemes that were put in place in the past, then it's just a matter of time.

And the US is not Sweden. If the US blocks your company's access to its market for leaving or not paying taxes, you'll most likely lose more money than the tax.

Not saying I'm pro wealth tax, I'm still having to think about it, but I do feel the US is in a position to be able to protect itself from founders leaving.

I'm not saying that people won't leave, I'm sure some will. I'm saying worrying about some people leaving is silly. What disaster befell Sweden because the IKEA founder left?

> What disaster befell Sweden because the IKEA founder left?

It's not hard to figure out if you try to think about it in a curious, scientific manner instead of through your ideological glasses. Many wealthy people left and Sweden lost tax income, investments and angered people. To the point where the left-wing parties realized how bad an idea it was.

https://iea.org.uk/blog/how-high-tax-sweden-abolished-its-di...

An annual wealth tax of ~0.5% and a floor of ~$10million is very, very different than an inheritance tax of 30%, to the point that they're not even that comparable. So sure, I agree we shouldn't have a high inheritance tax.

> An annual wealth tax of ~0.5% and a floor of ~$10million

... is pointless, as it will just drive wealthy people away, into tax evasion schemes etc. while providing only tax income from the stupid. I'm in that bracket and if my country decided to introduce such a tax, I'd be somewhere else in the EU in no time.

(still expecting a haircut-like single tax grab of 10% or more from our idiot government because of their ruinous Covid-19 politics though)

Let's talk rough numbers - I'll assume you have a net worth of $15 million. You'd owe 0.5% on $5 million - $25k a year. That would be significant enough to move countries over? Completely upend your life, move kids out of school, buy/sell a home, etc.? It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

You assume a number that is too close to your floor. Duh, someone with $10.5 million would not care unless he expected his wealth to grow quickly, eh? My taxes under your scheme would be well into six figures, more than it takes to house and feed a upper middle-class family with room to spare. So yes, I'd leave for greener pastures, since my frugal lifestyle shouldn't be punished.

By the way, I already paid 25% capital gains tax when I sold my company I'd grown over the years, at the time it was easily 20% of my total wealth.

Right-wing parties abolishing wealth taxes is not the same as "Sweden realized". It's fascinating how often I hear these kind of arguments. It's as if there have never been right-wing parties in power in Sweden that have adopted, well, right-wing policies.

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