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Comment by michaericalribo | Hacker News Reader

It seems the problem is not that _everyone_ needs a full 8, but that many people _assume_ they don’t need that much, even though they do.

I don’t sleep 8 every night: sometimes it’s longer, usually it’s more like 6, but either way I don’t use an alarm to wake up.

The key for me was to prioritize my sleep health by minimizing screen time before bed, going to bed consistently at the same time, and always leaving enough time to get 8 full hours if my body ends up wanting it.

I don’t _always_ need 8 hours, but it makes a huge difference when I do. And empirically, my well being—physical and mental—improves substantially if I am going out of my way to tend my sleep health.

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I feel that most people would benefit from knowing more about how to get a good night's sleep, but have a hard time figuring out what to do exactly.

So this thread helps but also something like this article about sleep hacking is very helpful: https://medium.com/better-humans/what-i-learned-from-six-mon...

I recently experimented with bed linen made by bamboo, but did not experience any big effect. Bamboo is supposed to regulate the temperature at night, but didn't seem able to on warm summer nights.

> I feel that most people would benefit from knowing more about how to get a good night's sleep, but have a hard time figuring out what to do exactly.

I personally don't agree. For pretty much all the people I know who won't sleep enough (that is, most of the people I known), it falls into the more general problem of health hygiene denial:

  - knowing that one should sleep more, but for <any reason> one doesn't,
  - having anxiety problems (eg. waking up early and not falling back asleep due to "mind rush").

While the second is certainly a serious problem that needs a medical (in a broad sense) approach, I'm very skeptical about dealing effectively with the first.

The negative effects of eating junk and smoking are extremely well known, and still, there's a large amount of people who do it.

Sleep deprivation on the other hand has obvious negative effects, buy they're not documented/perceived, in common culture, as being catastrophic (eg. you risk to die); it has also the perception of being a time waste, which conflicts with the busy requirements of a modern life.

Call me pessimistic, but I can hardly see a way to realistically (I stress "reastically") improve the situation on large scale (like smoke campaigns decrease smokers).

You may be on to something with the smoke campaigns. Maybe there could be some campaigning directly for sleep quality.

For example, I sometimes smoke "socially", sometimes up to half a pack during a night out. I never perceived it as "catastrophic", just as you say people don't perceive not sleeping enough as catastrophic. I would bet a lot of people don't feel like dying after smoking a cigarette or ten. The point is that maybe those campaigns do work, even when the issue isn't perceived as "critical" by the people. It could be launched as an education campaign, for the long haul.

Another thing which helped me a lot with sleep quality is exercise. And this is something for which there already are campaigns, at least in France, and from what I see it becomes more and more common to see people advocating for it. However, I don't see those campaigns talk about the effect of exercise on sleep.

When I started lifting some weights (nothing much, just a bunch of dumbbell exercises in my apartment) and going for short, light runs (around 30 minutes around my neighborhood) I noticed my sleep quality had improved enormously. A few weeks in, I actually started to sleep less than before. Went from around 7-8 hours and having a hard time waking up to around 6 hours and waking up refreshed and without an alarm.

So what I found out was that exercise actually turned out to be "free" from a time standpoint. But the overall levels of energy during the day went through the roof. Of course, the first two to three weeks were hard, especially waking up in the morning, but it was worth it.

Don't underestimate smoking, especially it must be avoided at all costs as a programmer. The minute you stumble on a problem which happens all day in the life of a programmer, the brain cues to smoke which actually causes digestive problem leading to constipation and sleep deprivation. Occasional smoking is a joke. Take a look at other profession and you can see smokers have an amazing career such as movies. I have not found a single programmer who has rose to the top of the field while still being a smoker.

I've found sleep hygiene is a big part of it for me. If I'm on a screen all day and night, right up until bed, I will need 8-9 hours to feel well rested. If I'm screen-free for 2-3 hours before bed, after a night or two I am as rested on 7 hours. And this maintains for as long as I'm good about being screen-free (Kindle included but that's just me perhaps, or psychosomatic maybe). Unfortunately it's not always possible to be away from all screens for that long at the right time, and it seems pretty easy to mess it up for several days with one or two slip ups.

I wish I could sleep eight hours but I tend to get up regardless at the same time alarm or not. I do try to enforce an afternoon nap or just eyes closed time.

I know nothing about the viability but like others you just find what works for you. I do know when I don't have enough sleep, it is really easy - I am irritable

Same here, even if I fall asleep as late as like 2am (which is rare) I tend to wake up a little after 6am now.

I do have a sleep apnea issue so that might have something to do with it but I think I'm currently sleeping in a way that it's not bothering me as much, in a recliner (at some point I need to get the machine but I can't get the titration right now because pandemic).

There's just something about 6am (the light? my dogs wanting to go outside?) that gets me every time.

Didn't used to be the case when I was younger. I could sleep 10+ hours easy. Now I'm lucky to get more than 7 usually, and usually only about 6 hours.

Anyone who isn't using flux[0] after 8pm is seriously hurting themselves. Once you use it, you can't go back.

[0] https://justgetflux.com/

Or the blue light-removing features that are built into most modern OS - Windows 10 has it ('Night Light'), Android ('Night Mode') and IoS ('Night Shift') have it.

Flux was great but for the most part modern OS' have caught up and it's no longer needed.

'In 2009 we first approached Apple to get f.lux on iPhones. Years of promises of API access. The last conversation we had with them was "that's too weird for most of our users. Like the Klingon keyboard." Then, they announced their clone onstage, Macworld 2016.'

— https://twitter.com/JustGetFlux/status/1288979404677292032

It's very likely that the team that said "yes" is not the same team that said "no". Apple is a big company. There's more than one person there.

Either way it demonstrates that their judgement was flawed

Or their judgement is sound, and they correctly assessed that the weirdness of f.lux or the thresholds of their userbase had changed in the intervening 7 years.

IF they first approached in 2009 and then had years of promises it follows that the intervening years should be 5 at the most. but maybe quite a bit less.

Ah, yeah, good catch!

I think it doesn't really eliminate the possibility, though, with different numbers.

They just went on with the times, 2016 was the year when everyone was obsessed about the "blue light disrupts your sleep" theories. Android, Windows and macOS were all on-board.

This is just Apple. It's useless, implausible, unreasonable, unviable...

Right up until other people do all the R&D for them so they can pick out the parts they like for a big announcement on stage. It's a smart strategy. They get to look like geniuses while others do the hard work and take all the risk.

Flux is still so much nicer than Windows 10's Night Light feature. Flux is gradual and has a transition over a few hours while Night Light has a transition over a few seconds.

Not to mention, with flux you can get the schedule just right. I work night hours, so it’s a light shade of red. But around 1:30 am it gets really, really red. It 1) tells me I should go to bed if I want to be functional when I wake up. 2) I don’t need to be paying attention to the clock and incidentally rush some work.

I read recently that light brightness is also very important in regulating circadian rhythm; not just blue light. I'd recommend f.lux or similar + dimming your screen until just before the point it's too hard/straining to read things.

I remember installing flux when dealing with a very severe bout of stress induced insomnia. I kept struggling to fall asleep and then giving in and playing temple run until 7 in the morning

Every couple of years I see a comment like this and give it another chance, but I honestly cannot tell a difference. Other than the annoyance it gives me with taking the contrast out of everything and de-colorizing my syntax highlighting. Maybe it makes the experience less attractive so I tend to use the computer less late at night, but other than that, what is the big deal?

Yep, between nights I use my computer late and those I don't, I see no difference on in sleep patterns or next day fatigue etc.

I think it's probably much more of an issue for people already susceptible to inspect insomnia or other sleep issues.

I've found that the effect of sleep deprivation and fatigue in general tends to lag by one full day on average, which makes it harder to mentally correlate between causes and consequences, especially when you're tired. In other words, my alertness on Monday mornings directly depends on how much I slept between Saturday and Sunday. OTOH it also means that I'm able to pull an all-nighter if necessary, but the adverse effects will kick in one day late.

F.lux, Windows 10 night light and Android's bedtime mode are great distractions at best and to me they serve more as a bedtime reminder. I feel that most sleep assistants and other life-hacking tools are mostly placebo that give you the feeling you're in control, which is a state the human brain likes. Sadly, it also means that once you know the placebo effect, those tools become useless. :-)

You sort of have to go full sleep hygiene mode for it to work.

I use flux, but I also cut all blue light after 10pm. I use 1850k lights (aka candlelight) throughout the house after 10pm. My phone is also yellow shifted and I watch tv yellow shifted too (by only watching from a computer with flux at night).

All those things together made a huge difference in sleep quality.

And when is your target time to go to sleep?

1am sleep 8-9am wake up.

Why do you go to bed at 1am if you only sleep from 8 til 9am? ;)

he goes to sleep at 1am, and gets up at some time between 8 and 9

"Does it help you sleep?"

"Yes. Mainly when I practice good sleeping habits, though."

/s :)

It's part of an overall routine. Like how they tell you the cereal is just part of complete breakfast, as long as you add milk, fruit, and a some eggs. :)

But then how do you know how much of a role Flux is contributing (if at all) to the effectiveness of that routine?

If I use non-flux screens but change nothing else my sleep is a lot worse.

Lots of laptops and OLED phones flicker in low brightness, using this actually make it worse as your eyes strains quickyly from the combined effect, at least for me.

I'm currently using Iris Pro in max brightness, in which the display doesn't need to flicker, the software still can dim the screen itself.

Do OLED displays flicker? I thought it happens only with LED backlight panels that were dimmed using PWM, which was quite unpleasant when I switched from a CCFL one.

Most OLED displays use PWM, as the color dots are hard to control, PWM has no issue in this regard.

People said that, and flux and other apps came out. Then Apple added it too (and perhaps other OS makers).

But there's this too - and increasingly more stories like it:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/12/191216173654.h...

https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/

Interesting, thanks for sharing those articles. redshift lets you adjust brightness in addition or instead of color temperature (there is a Windows version but it is command line only, doesn't look like it supports macs and does not work with Wayland). Someone mentioned brightness a while back and I've been adjusting both since then but I'll try just adjusting brightness and see how it works. If nothing else, it is possible that warm color temperatures might end up being similar to the issue with flashlights where full spectrum lets you use a lower brightness than red light (of course, with flashlights there is also the issue that many "red" flashlights, even some that advertise as being night vision preserving, aren't in the right range to actually preserve night vision). It does seem like I could lower the brightness a bit more without the warmer color temperature.

https://github.com/jonls/redshift

There's a GUI redshift for Windows: https://github.com/maoserr/redshiftgui/downloads

if anyone is interested, Michael from f.lux provided some great info in relation to the study the above links are referencing when it was originally posted on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21916679

Flux needs to decouple it’s dimming timings from your local day/night cycle. I don’t care if it’s light or dark out, if it’s between x and y time I want the screen dimmed; otherwise, I don’t want it dimmed.

For a non-day-aligned f.lux to actually help you, you'd need to have blue-light filters on your windows, such that you aren't getting natural blue light during the day. Screens have only maybe 1/1000 the lux of daylight. Letting in even a little bit of daylight (e.g. through blinds) would completely swamp any effect from blue light on an LCD/LED panel.

What about the inverse? It's dark outside, but it's 7pm and I'm not about to sleep.

> blue-light filters on your windows

Yes or good old fashioned curtains or window blinds.

Well recent studies show that software like flux only does a little and maybe even nothing to help you sleep better.

The problem is that we keep our brains active late at night and that's the reason why it is hard to get to sleep.

For me alcohol is the one that messes with my sleep. The lack of deep sleep makes me feel tired the next day(s).

Edit: an article about recent studies: https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/

Maybe it's placebo, but after installing flux I fall asleep at 22:00-23:00. Before I often stayed up till 01:00.

I still read a lot on computer in the evening, but I get sleepy much earlier.

Can confirm sibling's observation.

I find it much easier to fall asleep when the light is redder. Even for example when reading a book, if there's a lot of bright light in the room I will have a much harder time falling asleep.

I've noticed that if I wake up for some reason at night and turn the lights on, if the light is bluer it will tend to wake me up completely, whereas a red light will allow me to stay "sleepy" and fall back asleep quicker.

> The problem is that we keep our brains active late at night and that's the reason why it is hard to get to sleep.

You are correct, however, that's a confounding problem. The (relatively) weak effectiveness of software solutions is due to blocking only a small percentage of blue light from a (relatively) strong light source (assumes short distance to screen, low ambient light at night).

Blue light (and even some green light frequencies) is a hardwired stimulus feeding into your circadian rhythm. Blocking all blue and green frequencies, e.g. with simple welding glasses, is effective in supporting the creation of melatonin.

But again, having enough melatonin in your system is a necessary but not sufficient condition to be able to sleep.

if anyone is interested, Michael from f.lux provided some great info in relation to the study the Time article is referencing when it was originally posted on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21916679

Reducing the light temperature is not enough. After 8 pm I turn off all harsh lights in my home and avoid things which excite me. Evenings I often tell my wife to postpone lively debates to the next day.

All this makes my body ready for sleep and at 10 pm I feel relieved to close my eyes and dozing off. I have accepted that I seem to need more sleep than others. Usually after 8 to 9 hours of sleep I wake up on my own.

Redshift is the free alternative for GNU/Linux.

I also have a positive experience with Redshift, and use it on both computers and phones at night. Since I live in the north, I also have good experience with "rubber curtains" that block out all sunlight at night in the summer, and a "wake-up light" that simulates sunrises in the winter.

> Once you use it, you can't go back.

I did and I went back.

It does very little you use night mode everywhere.

It might help with white backgrounds but I remove or avoid those even during daylight. I do use the 'Eye saver' mode on my smartphone, but only to visually let me know that it's after midnight.

I wish we had a non subjective way to quantify sleep quality.

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