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Please stop throwing good money after bad. You’ve proven that your approach doesn’t work, stop it!

Go find yourself a more business-minded partner in this undertaking so that it can be financially sustainable.

Noble intentions are great but in the end you will be left with nothing and unable to help anybody.

> You’ve proven that your approach doesn’t work, stop it!

I haven't proven anything yet and I have learned alot. You seem to have reached a conclusion though, care to share how?

You spent 4 years failing to find a sustainable, repeatable model with economics that work.

Right now it’s a matter of when you burn out, not if.

The only thing here that "doesn't work" is that there aren't enough people like the OP. He's helped dozens of people learn a worthwhile, mind expanding skill that pays well enough to have a family.

Let the man help people. He's got plenty of time to make back money and I highly doubt that after helping all these people that in the end he'll be left with nothing. He already has more than most people.

How are you planning to keep this sustainable for the long term? Burning out one's personal finances doesn't sound like it furthers your mission/passion.

The way I see it, I'm paying to study how people learn and how people's standing in society affects their learning. It is very interesting and definitely opened my eyes and helped change my philosophy in life.

I haven't learned enough to confidently strategize a way to keep this sustainable, because I noticed a pattern between people who don't do well and their personality (but I can't quite put my finger on it). I'm still observing and trying to figure this one out.

You probably should add a 5-20% take of atttendees first 6 month or year pay. You could argue that is 'expensive', but the value add for the students is probably more than they made otherwise with no upfront cost. Your incentives are aligned, and this could help you enroll even more students.

The alternative of you no longer providing the service is worse.

> ...but the value add for the students is probably more than they made otherwise with no upfront cost.

I really don't want to set a precedence of charging students for something I don't think they should be paying for. I'd rather have them keep their money so they can help improve the world in their own way.

> The alternative of you no longer providing the service is worse.

Worse for who? Society? I don't believe it is my job to fix societal problems. I can help in a way that makes it fun and interesting for me and if any of the graduates want to continue providing the service and charge 5-20% of the students pay, they are free to launch their own service. Everything is open source.

> I really don't want to set a precedence of charging students for something I don't think they should be paying for.

What do you think students shouldn't be paying for? Education?

Some people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for learning materials and a certificate of completion. Up front. With no guarantee of future income. And no refund if you don't finish.

Offering learning materials that only cost money if you profit from them seems like a much better alternative.

I don't think students should pay for education, correct. I would enjoy life more if education was free and I'm free to pursue whatever I wanted to learn.

It would be even cooler if I was paid to learn so teachers get to experiment with all different ways to teach and they are fully vested into my growth.

Everything has costs. Nothing is free. Public education funding has to come from somewhere so that educators can eat and classrooms can be built and maintained.

Financial transactions are not inherently bad. They are one half of value transfer. In your case, a win-win situation.

> Everything has costs. Nothing is free. Public education funding has to come from somewhere so that educators can eat and classrooms can be built and maintained.

If you believe that, then it will be true for you. Alot of things are free. If you plant a potato you can end up with a whole field of potatoes that you can eat forever, for free. And all the potatoes you don't eat decomposes back into the soil and makes the soil healthier.

Nature is fundamentally free and abundant and I can't figure out why our society isn't. Everyone around me seems to conclude that nothing is free though so maybe there's something I see that others don't, or there's something everyone else sees that I don't.

Time has value, and economies of scale make it more efficient. I worked at a CSA for a while and the amount of time it would take an individual to have the diversity of foods we provide would have taken them far longer. I have nothing against gardening on its own, but the marginal value add of doing something else yourself doesn’t always exceed the value of your time and the opportunity cost of not doing something else.

You could always live an AnPrim lifestyle and that’s fine (one of Kaczynski’s main points was that specialization in the abstract is incompatible with people), but there are more obvious reasons why more people don’t do that.

Give them the chance to participate and give back to their society as well!

> because I noticed a pattern between people who don't do well and their personality (but I can't quite put my finger on it)

can you talk about this?

I'm not really comfortable talking about this because is just speculation and I don't have enough time / data to defend my position. If you have specific questions though please contact me.

Have you thought of maybe investing in real estate or something? I want to do this and get others to join and do it, then use the proceeds to pay medical bills for people. But, if you can get recurring monthly income from something, then that could fuel some endeavor like this.

Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply? I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required.

I contemplated doing something similar in London (not paying money per-se, but providing a location & good hardware for the students to use) but was kind of worried about ending up with an office full of freeloaders that just enjoy the amenities provided without caring about the curriculum itself.

I've experimented with a few people I know that are stuck in bullshit jobs and gave them hardware, software and any books/resources they'd need to learn programming, but while they are very grateful for it I haven't actually seen any progress or frankly even long-term motivation.

> Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply? I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required.

I think people that never worked in the public sector, particularly in something like social services, overestimate the goodness (for the lack of a better word) of average people. People that do this usually come from highly-competitive and privileged backgrounds -- top tier universities, FAANG jobs, etc. And the assumption is that "anyone else" could have made it, too! Everyone is just as stubborn, just as motivated, and just as smart. But FAANG jobs and top-tier universities are self-selecting.

There's a nugget of truth here, and we shouldn't forget what Rawls taught us about the Veil of Ignorance[1], but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high. I'm not saying don't donate or don't give back (as a Christian, I feel a moral obligation, in fact, to donate to the less fortunate), but just that implementing welfare policies or -- as @songzme did -- giving resources away, is pretty tricky. Not only do you want to avoid the Free-rider problem[2], but you also want to make sure that people won't end up being wholly dependent on the resources they're the beneficiaries of.

[1] https://fs.blog/2017/10/veil-ignorance/

[2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/

You comment was downvoted but I upvoted it because you bring up a valid point. I've noticed first hand the free-rider problem and I have mixed feelings.

I thought it was interesting that all students with the free-rider symptoms did not feel good about free-riding. They tried to help out and feel bad when we meet for 1-1 and they haven't done much.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm actually fighting against FAANG because these companies are spending billions trying to capture as much of my students' attention as possible and I have to spend more time helping manage my students out of these distractions.

I'm actually starting to wonder if the free-rider problem exists because of FAANG creating addictive content and the media glorifying a certain lifestyle. If students were not exposed to these distractions, would they still be free-riding? I honestly don't think so and my next year's plan is to try and simulate this.

The economy of distraction is indeed a fucked up economy... there are just 24h in a day. And we have billionaires competing for our attention. Creating opium-like content and experiences (tv, social media, videogames).

I wonder myself how deal with that in a systemic level. A society of consumers is bad... but a society that is a audience is worse.

I think your wrong about the "all time high social mobility" my understanding is that the peak was reach 40 years ago. I'm currently reading Thomas Piketty on the subject

40 years ago, most of Eastern Europe was under North Korea-like Communism, China was still enforcing the one-child policy, and South Africa was still under Apartheid. Not to mention the looming fear of nuclear annihilation. I’m not sure how 40 years ago, we were better off.

But I’ll look into Thomas Piketty.

That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence, I’ve seen no evidence in a life lived among working class and professional-class individuals that there is any significant difference in work ethic. I wonder if you’re even aware how many poor and working-class individuals work 2 full-time jobs.

The reason why folks working in social services might have a different impression is that they’re primarily coming into contact with people who are in failure mode for a variety of reasons: addiction, health-issues, mental illness, etc. They are not representative of the poor and working classes in general, and their failure to maintain a strong work ethic is often impeded by their life challenges.

Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system. That may make them seem more common than they actually are.

> but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high

No idea about global social mobility, it’s entirely possible it’s at an all-time high. But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. It’s been declining for many, many decades:

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th...

A few studies show that the decline in social mobility may be leveling off, but if that’s the case (and even that isn’t clear-many studies show the opposite), then almost certainly the financial crisis and COVID will reverse that trend.

> That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites.

Nowhere in my post did I mention elites. In fact, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. Tech fares much better here than, say, investment banking.

> While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence

That's not what I said at all -- if I had to say they selected for one thing, I'd say that the institutions I mentioned probably select for conscientiousness.

> Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system...

Again, this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers. I'd prefer looking at this in the abstract (because studies will always be politicized), and freeloading can definitely be an optimal strategy[1].

> But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA.

Oh come on, at least let's be fair. This is a contentious issue and there are disagreements here. Some say it's gone down, others say it's gone up[2].

[1] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory...

[2] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leadi...

> That's not what I said at all

Well, what did you mean by “just as smart”?? Most working class men and women are in fact fairly conscientious. The institutions you mentioned do select for higher IQ. Are you claiming that software development does not require a higher IQ than a typical non-professional job? There’s a lot of psychological research that suggests otherwise.

> act, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites.

By any reasonable definition, anyone working as a software developer in a FAANG is an elite. Most of you are in the top 1% income-wise. Most of you share the same cultural values, and live in the same isolated environment (note: I’m generalizing - that may not apply to you personally).

> this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers

Are you talking about me here, or the OP? If me, it’s particularly amusing. I went to a state school, never worked for a FAANG, and have actually worked in social services (for a charity, for 2 years). I have a very different view of working class work ethic than you do. Most people work hard.

By the way, have you worked in the public sector, or in social services?

> ...contentious issue...

No, it’s really not a contentious issue. The title of the article you referenced is misleading, if you read the whole article. Heckman doesn’t claim that social mobility is going up. He just believes that the data isn’t as bad as Chetty claims it is. The vast majority of research in this area shows declining social mobility. Some of it suggests the long decline in mobility may be leveling off. None I’m aware of suggest it’s rising.

Read Piketty, Chetty, and Milanovic. The data is clear. In the US, social mobility has been dropping for decades, and income/wealth inequality rising. For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up.

> For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up.

You make some fair points, and maybe our life experiences are just vastly different. Having grown up in abject poverty (post-Communist Eastern Europe), migrated to the States when I was 11 with my family, and watched my parents struggle and, to a certain extent, "make it" in America, the idea that there's no social mobility in the US is foreign to me. And this applies to my extended family as well.

Keep in mind that my grandparents don't even have 4 years of school, so it's not like I'm some blue-blood elite. The opportunities that the US gave me and my family make me immensely proud to call myself an American.

You have a great story. Out of 100 people in abject poverty in the US, how many do you think ended up like you to "make it"?

Rather than talk about your story and how you were able to "make it", I think it'll be really cool if you found a way to help open up this social mobility so that is is accessible for more people.

That's what I'm trying to do anyways. I've moved quite a few people from 40k / year (whole family) to making 150k / year. You not only learn alot by doing that, you can also create miracles in people's lives.

> Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply?

No vetting process, it was first come first served. As long as a student kept showing up, I will do everything I can to help. I don't advertise paying students, I offer it after I've seen them make some progress.

> I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required.

This actually happened to a few students. But in their defense, I would do the same. If I had been struggling month to month and suddenly I get a chance to breath and relax, I would relax.

I've been trying to condition myself to be okay giving money to people and not expecting anything in return (in the spirit of basic income). It is a hard path to take emotionally but I am making progress.

> I contemplated doing something similar in London (not paying money per-se, but providing a location & good hardware for the students to use) but was kind of worried about ending up with an office full of freeloaders that just enjoy the amenities provided without caring about the curriculum itself.

This will happen. People will find a way to build a community with regular parties and alcohol and weed and other drugs will come in. Some students will start binge watching TV shows, start gaming, etc. You need to make sure to set some fundamental rules.

The way I plan to solve this (next year) could be very controversial, but I believe it based on my experiences so far: No internet until you finish the curriculum, no alcohol, no drugs. Maybe also no meat but that's still up in the air.

> I've experimented with a few people I know that are stuck in bullshit jobs and gave them hardware, software and any books/resources they'd need to learn programming, but while they are very grateful for it I haven't actually seen any progress or frankly even long-term motivation.

That's how I started and the reason why there is no long-term motivation is that there is nobody around them to help them manage their feelings. Once you help them manage their feelings, their drive is infinite.

If you want to talk more, shoot me a message in the chatroom on c0d3.com (my username is gnos), I'll be happy to share everything (curriculum, apps that powers the curriculum, vision, etc).

> The way I plan to solve this (next year) could be very controversial, but I believe it based on my experiences so far: No internet until you finish the curriculum, no alcohol, no drugs. Maybe also no meat but that's still up in the air.

Sounds like today’s version of a 17th century monastery. Maybe, you should push it further

that is the plan. No phones between 8am - 8pm, like a true bootcamp :)

If this can help you ... From my own experience, I advise you that you should also ban music, external noises and any other distractions ... Basically to make your students bored and that the only thing that "entertains" them is to code in the computer.

By the way, I would be interested to know more about your project and its progress, if you could give me some form of contact I would greatly appreciate it.

hn at hoie dot kim

I sincerely hope the students that went on to become full time developers paid you back handsomely to pay it forward to future students, otherwise you have nothing to retire with if you sacrificed your life savings. I hope your altruism is rewarded because you are such a good person for doing this. Maybe take donations and create a fund from wealthy tech enthusiasts?

Thanks, but I've come to realize that I'm not altruistic so I want to clarify so you don't leave with the wrong message.

I'm using my wealth to build a learning environment and remove obstacles so I can observe what the true barriers to learning are. I essentially created my own lab because it was too much work to convince others to create it for me.

So, I'm not the good person that my story seems to convey, just curious.

Well I for one am happy that your deep seated curiosity is so aligned with an altruistic cause that despite my typical trait of believing people when they describe their motivations I still have some doubt about your true motivations. I've taught a number of people software or data science for free. And yes, teaching is its own reward and seeing people that you've taught land gigs as data scientists at companies like Shopify is gratifying, but ultimately it would be dishonest of me to say that my teaching others was purely for selfish reasons. It wasn't. I like helping people and I wish more people did too.

Thanks for doing what you're doing and please keep pushing forward to make the world a better place.

Thanks for doing this. This is really awesome of you but you need to find some way to subsidize the cost in the long term.

Have you got any ideas?

I am thinking for-profit divisions such as a hiring agency (you will be able to fix the hiring processes) and training services for interns and juniors of companies, etc. You can sell enterprise subscriptions that companies can pay to give their employees access to training material whilst still providing an open source version via GPL.

Maybe crowd funding. Some kind of lambda school agreement or help spin off companies from projects and take a cut.

I would love to talk more about this. I am starting a similar endeavour as a hobby. Email is in the profile.

will reach out and we can bounce ideas :)

This was one of my dreams, using my excess wealth to do some form of subsidized education with my twist on it, as an alternative to hoarding it all and ignoring requests for handouts, providing no opportunity to earn the money.

Thanks for spelling out the financial disaster that is, pass.

good. It is difficult, but interesting.

I think what you're doing is absolutely brilliant, despite the financial difficulties, which are not your fault, because you're a programmer -- not a businessman (don't feel bad, I'm sort of in the same boat, and many users/posters of HN are in that same boat too...)

But the fact that you're helping others is absolutely awesome!

More power to you, and I'm sure if you persist down this path, you'll figure out better ways to handle the financial side of things!

Business is its own learning process -- much like programming was a long time ago! <g>

Anyway, best of luck with your endeavors!

thank you!

Really nice!

"After completing our curriculum, you will gain access to our internal code repository that powers c0d3.com"

Out of curiosity, why aren't you opensourcing the code? That would make it easier for your students to showcase their contributions and how they communicate.

My personal experience when I was a gsoc admin was that it was hard to get the students stick around after the end of the summer, do you manage and have some tips to share?

it is open source: https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app

It used to be closed source, but it was only because I wasn't confident about the quality of the codebase. Now it is much better.

> My personal experience when I was a gsoc admin was that it was hard to get the students stick around after the end of the summer, do you manage and have some tips to share?

First you should realize that some people just don't really see the point in coding. These people are just going to wander off.

The ones who are dedicated though, its important to spend time to talk to them and make sure your project aligns with their goals. Then they will contribute above and beyond. Our project mission is simple because most students want an engineering job: Working on c0d3.com repository will not only help you gain the skills as a software engineer, it also counts as work experience and makes your resume look amazing.

Does your gsoc project lead to a full time job conversion? 100% of the people I know who did gsoc did it with only one goal in mind: get a full time job.