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Comment by Kapura | Hacker News Reader

Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think that, regardless of how the election shapes up this year, next year will see an enormous uptick in the number of Americans emigrating to a country less burdened with problems of its own making.

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Universities pay better in China, South Korea and Canada for professors to do research. I personally know people who moved out of United States after getting PhD and postdoc to those countries.

I am surprised to see Canada there. Jobs in tech in Canada pay lte half of the comps in US.

Between SK and China, SK's per capita income is not far off from US but China's is. I am surprised China is able to compete better than US purely on financial might.

Not everyone goes to be a professor at MIT or Harvard. State Universities actually don't pay good and it's hard to get tenure (literally have to wait for someone to get retired or die ...)

There is the uncertainty and high cost of living in the USA as well, so having a high salary isn't the big factor people always make it out to be.

If you make 1000000 but all of that does down the drain because the country you earn it in doesn't have common facilities available you end up with a pretty bad bottom line.

For Canada, its not always about comp. If you're Indian there is a 100+ year (projected) waitlist for US permanent residency. Chinese have a 5 year waitlist and every other nationality has no waitlist.

This means for the whole waiting period you need to be employed (in a job that's related to your degree) or you lose legal status.

Compare this to Canada where you arrive with permanent residency, have good healthcare and don't have to worry about losing your residence. Easier to put down roots.

The best deal is for those who earn their stock grants in the US and make a mid-career move to Canada. They start with a good asset base.

That is very specific to Indians. What percentage of them make up the people in unis/research? From your comment it seems like rest aren't that affected by this.

The stock grants in US ones definitely are better off, a lot of Europeans also use this and go back.

Majority of STEM grad students in the US are either from India or China. They are also the biggest pool of potential immigrants (2B+ combined population).

For Chinese, it's becoming more and more attractive to just stay back (current geopolitical tensions aren't helping).

If you're a EU citizen, grad school in the US is not that attractive comparitively unless you're specifically targeting a lab. Over there you have flexible options like doing a PhD through research projects at work (some govts even give you a subsidy for this). Full time grad students have decent benefits too.

As far as I understand most of the Indian STEM(specially CS) students treat higher studies in US as a pathway to a job in US. I was asking as to how many eventually go into academia professionally.

For Chinese, I think there are a lot of other strong reasons to stay back. As I understand from the amount of research coming out of their unis in mainland, they seem to have improved a lot there. Also, R&D in some industries reaching on par to Western counterparts, with jobs paying quite well in big cities, so little reason for them to move away from their homeland.

It's definitely not all about compensation, and it's not just an industrial move away from the US. I personally chose to do my CS PhD studies in Canada rather than at (better funded, higher-status) American options, after leaving a US undergrad. Those other options would've been strongly preferable had it not been for my experience with US culture during undergrad; as it was, US culture made clear to me that staying there was out of the question.

More than a dozen of my friends who graduated at the same time did similarly, both those who went on to grad school and those who went into industry. This wasn't because there weren't options for us in the US — we all had choices. The honest truth is that, among those bright people I knew in undergrad, the large majority (Americans and international alike) were wholly disgusted by the US in recent years, and being unable to effect any change, they left the country.

Just an anecdote, but within my friends, only those who work in tech are eager to move to US. My physics and math friends from college focused on research moved or like to move to other countries. The ones who I know that moved either have family in there, or are working in technician positions and are not really regarded as "the brightest" on our circle.

As for myself, I have avoided any position that requires me to move in the US. I take a substantial cut because of COL adjustments, but I'm not that interested FU money.

Yeah, I think the appeal for tech in US has been either on money/cutting edge stuff.

I think the cutting edge stuff is getting less pronounced now because of either global offices/remote or ease of access of resources anywhere.

> America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to.

It still is. you theory is that it suddenly stopped being that country suddenly from April of this year? Totally absurd logic. Check back how many ppl apply for h1b next year when pandemic is over.

Obviously this is a sample of size one, but growing up my dream was to move to the US. Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money, but that's true of literally anywhere.

Edit: actually, it's a bit more than one - I have friends who work for SV companies in their London offices and they all rejected real offers to move to US(with an increase in pay) citing issues plaguing the country. My cousin had a transfer visa already arranged and ready and changed his mind for the same reason - US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in - I'd consider it for good money but it's not normally on my list because it seems like the systematic issues of the country are off putting.

> Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money.

stupid amount of money , what would this be for you, compared to current amount of money you make?

> with an increase in pay

Maybe they were low balled. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid. Just wait till pandemic is over.

I don't even know, I have everything I need, I honestly don't see or have a need to change a job for more money. If someone offered me 500k I'd obviously give it a serious consideration because that's "stupid amount of money", but even then I'd do it for a year or two and come back(I could get several houses for that amount of money here lol). But like I said, that's true of anywhere - offer me 500k and I'll work in North Korea for a bit.

>>. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid

I don't know, I have a friend who moved from a £50k/year job in UK to a $250k/year job in the US(SV) and he's currently planning to move back, he massively dislikes everything about working and living in the US. Money isn't everything. But of course, these are anecdotes.

> he's currently planning to move back

Tell me when he actually moves back :), i guarantee you that he is BS-ing.

All my indian friends always talk about "moving back" but we never do. Everyone knows that its BS but we let it slide.

remember all the celebreties that vowed to renounce their citizenship if trump is elected. Yep, they are still here. every one of them.

You seem to be actively discounting other people's opinions. Why not just accept that the US is no longer aligned with the interests of some (not all) skilled foreign workers. OP does seem to be open to discussions of increased compensation which seems to be one way to address the additional risk foreign workers have to manage in the US.

Heck I wouldn’t move to SV for any realistic amount of money I could make and I live in the southeast US.

Once you have “enough” you don’t have to make choices based on making more.

so you are willing to work 20 yrs of your life in southeast of US vs working 10yrs in SV and retiring to wherever you want?

Have you heard the story of the Mexican fisherman?

You mean if I were hypothetically 27 years old, with a 3100 square foot house in the burbs where I am paying $2200/month mortgage, married with 2.1 kids, both my wife and I working and we are able to put one spouses entire salary toward long term goals, I could move to SV, work 10 years and move somewhere cheaper to buy the big house in the burbs so I could enjoy the nice laid back life that I already enjoy?

I was a lot older when that decision became a realistic possibility for me to pursue. But I made the same calculation. In hindsight, I’m glad I did. I chose to go down a road that allowed me to work remotely for BigTech. But I had no idea that I would fall into this position. I thought I would be working for a local consulting company at best when my youngest graduated.

Bingo. I have a house, two brand new cars, can afford holidays few times a year(and actually have the holiday allowance to go on them), growing savings, growing pension fund.....so why would I move to US and deal with all the BS of American life? To achieve exactly the same thing, but maybe with a slightly bigger house and a fancier car? I'll pass thanks.

We have two cars that sit in the garage now most of the time because we don’t go anywhere (Post Covid). We don’t buy lunch out, we don’t eat out, no gym memberships etc.

> To achieve exactly the same thing,

Maybe you already live in a rich country. My savings went from ~20k to ~150k / yr (not counting investment market growth). I actually have a better lifestyle and vacations here, eg: I spent 2 weeks skiing this year in mid Jan in brekenridge, CO, something I couldn't even dream of in my home country.

So, yea if you are already from a rich country where a software dev can afford 2 brand new cars then it doesn't make sense. correct. "BS of American life" is a matter of perspective, to me america is heaven on earth.

I think you're exaggerating a bit. The US has some drawbacks (like healthcare and a tendency to social conflict) but americans seem to be welcoming people and if you're in a high paid field, definitely the US offers way higher salaries.

If I was offered a good contract I won't lie, I would think about it, but it's still pretty attractive compared to anywhere else.

I don't see any reason to "not move no matter what". It's definitely in the top list of desirability. I'm pretty sure that I would have an easier time making friends and a life for myself in the US than in Germany or most northern-european countries, and if you're qualified enough you'll make decent money.

Now imagine you're a top IT guy in some poor country. Do you really think that it would be that difficult decision? It's easy to say "meh" when you live in Europe.

The pros and cons vary significantly based in the nationality and skin color of the applicant.

>>It's easy to say "meh" when you live in Europe.

Well yes, obviously this was spoken from a perspective of a European so moving to US is not exactly appealing. But if you're from somewhere else then I can see how US would be at or near the top of your list.

US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in

Come on. Really. Equal to Russia.

We're reaching levels of antiUS kneejerking that shouldn't be possible. On the upside, salaries here will grow, which is nice.

The key part that you have missed is "in my mind". I'm personally equally likely to move to either US or Russia, if I was offered enough money. And reasons why I wouldn't want to move to either are pretty similar - that's not me saying that the countries are the same.

I'm personally equally likely to move to either US or Russia

You've established a hierarchy and placed both countries at the same level, thus making them the same.

Depends on the elections outcome, I guess.

> Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to

Poppycock.

That runs counter to the article's statement there were a record number of applications.

Something happened between the application deadline in early April & now, and that something is quite obviously COVID-19.

You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that there's a pandemic on?

If anything the pandemic is an even better indicator of US decline.

I don't think the decline narrative makes sense here. Most of the H1B applicants would have been from India, where the pandemic isn't any better controlled.

Well, there's no way that me, a white guy, would go to work for FAANG in Silicon Valley. An office abroad, sure, but not there.

so how would I go and apply for a visa then beyond the green card lottery? seems a great moment to get there. the situation will solve itself sooner or later and at that point you'd be in ahead of the frontline

First half of 2020 also a 6X increase in the number of Americans giving up their citizenship compared to the prior year.

heard the same thing in 2015

http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans...

another one from 2017

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10...

> compared to the prior year

why only compare it to previous year? Previous year was the lowest. ~450 compared to ~3500 in 2014.

Alternate headline from last year:

CNN: Record number of americans not giving up citizenship .A fall of 600% compared to Obama presidency.

1. H1-B is time bound , 3yrs with 3 yr renewal

2. I may be wrong, but if you get H1 completely approved the clock starts ticking even if you are unable to travel to US

3. Looks like students\ppl already here picked up, and those coming from outside did not because in spite of having sponsor (a consulting company), they have to find job in pandemic job market and of course travel restrictions.

America is still the place smart people want to come.

edit: i would appreciate feedback while you downvote me, what the disagreement is.

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