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Comment by tetha | Hacker News Reader

Reliable 10mbps is a stable full hd stream and 5ish mbps to spare. Easily one stable video call or two at lower quality.

It'll be annoying if you want to download the latest AAA shooter coming in at dozens and dozens of gigabytes, sure. But you can do a lot at 10mbps as 1-2 people needing the uplink. That's really nice.

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Totally agree.

Also - my frustrations over the last few days compel me to point out that the latest AAA shooter is in fact 227 GB, plus >100GB of updates.

Has anyone come out with a reason for the size? I mean they seem to reuse a lot of the same textures throughout the game so I have a hard time understanding how it managed to swell to that.

People keep paying for it. That's pretty much it. There's no legitimate reason for a game at the resolutions common to modern consoles to be that big.

Then again, I guess you have to store all those textures for the $9.99 exclusive hot pink and baby shit yellow digital camo shotgun skin somewhere...

IDK if they do this for PC versions...

But a lot of these games not only Reuse textures but also duplicate them. They do this to improve load times for levels/etc (less seeking).

Playstation DOOM is an early example of this pattern. The WAD files were actually 'per-level' and contained all sprites/textures/etc used in said level.

Wouldn't duplicated textures get de-duplicated by any halfway-decent compression algorithm though? I'd assume the game is sent over the wire compressed

That's not how compression would work. Think about if they are adding a new level. The algorithm would have nothing to compare the files against except what is actually being sent. If the texture appears in each level, and each level comes in a separate update, there's no way for the algorithm to reference or incorporate the files that are already in your computer, so it has to compress it like it's a brand new file. That is unless you have a costume installer which duplicates the file once it runs, but that would probably be a ton more work for the developers.

I think AAA games do this now anyway to allow this like smaller patches and playing while the game downloads.

You have this completely wrong. "there's no way"? It's extremely easy to make a patch file that references existing data. This is a problem that has been solved many times.

And that's not relevant to initial install anyway, which can/should be a single download.

But thats not compression. That's downloading and running an executable that duplicates files.

What's your definition or compression? A .tar.gz will de-duplicate files that will be re-duplicated on decompression.

Having a reference dictionary is a type of compression.

You need a program that decompresses no matter what, and the ability to reference existing files barely changes it. It's not a post-processing stage where files get copied around. It's the ability to reference arbitrary chunks of data inter-file just like it can reference arbitrary chunks of data intra-file.

At the most basic level it's like taking a compressed file and chopping it in half. The user already has the first half, then they download the second half and "resume" decompressing.

That MIGHT be happening, honestly not sure.

There are possibly challenges in that however, my understanding of most compression algos (which may be inaccurate or incorrect) is that you'd run into limitations either with size of data overall or the memory requirements.

Of course, I'm sure there's other ways around that (And I have no clue if they are in use). One option would be to send over the assets in a master 'assets' package and then duplicate/assemble the data as intended during installation.

Most compression algorithms have a limited data reference window (dictionary size) - tens to hundreds of MB being typical upper limits. If duplicated data is further apart, it gets compressed again.

If the data isn't pre-compressed, or doesn't otherwise significantly vary, then using the right tools should de-duplicate the data. Things like lrzip, rsync batch mode, bdiff should work well. If large blocks are identical, many filesystem archivers/backup solutions should do good deduplication, and squashfs can be kind of nice.

I assume it must be a massive refusal to deduplicate. For example in the Verdansk map, many of the houses and buildings are cut and pasted. In theory, these could be aliases of the same model, but I suspect they are all baked in.

Other than that I just don't know. Maybe they used bad settings for whatever is their compression algo and they don't have any experts who could actually identify the problem? It's a preposterous idea but I can't explain it otherwise.

The house models themselves might use the same geometry and textures, but if you pre-bake any lighting then that’s a unique texture across every single surface in the world that can’t be deduplicated.

Depending on how the models are expressed in the environment, theres a good chance they end up as triangle meshes with unique coordinates by the time the running game eversees them.

Wouldn’t they want to keep reused objects instanced for performance, or is there some other advantage to just meshing everything out into a unique set of level parts?

Unless it’s changed a lot since I worked in game dev, models absolutely are instanced but poly counts, texture resolutions and number of textures have gone through the roof. You used to have a texture and maybe a light map, now you have separate diffuse, specular, bump, glow, decals, etc. etc.

Everyone’s doing physically based rendering, so now it’s base color, roughness, metallic, and specular. Plus the glow, decals, etc.

The amount of uncompressed audio in todays games is too damn high.

I can think of two reasons which are purely non-techincal:

- The bigger the game, the less space for other games.

- Much like adding metal to the inside consumer headphone purely to weight it down and give a premium feeling (they do this with other products as well). A larger program may be perceived as more significant.

That backfired, I chose my last premium headset over the other because it was lighter.

Who wants a rock attached to their ears? In their carry on?

People who buy Beats headphones.

Here are some reasons I can come up with (3 is weak):

1) Fancy updaters with bindiff and compression take time and money. As a first step, you need repeatable builds.

2) A broken fancy updater results in a reinstall, support calls and refunds.

3) If the updates are pushed by the store, there is no incentive to reduce the cost.

With those three, if you can get away with shipping everything that's changed, you're going to do it.

Games have always had this dilemma. Content creators and level makers will simply try to push in as much as they possibly can until something says stop. Historically this has been the size of one CD but nowadays there are no such clearly defined limits.

If the engine starts compressing better then the map creators will just use that newly gained savings to add even more content.

Exactly. The limiting factor isn’t megabytes, it’s how long the customer will be willing to wait for a download.

Probably because bandwidth is cheap and artists are expensive.

Google Stadia should ship 1TB disks filled with 3-4 games to Starlink customers.

Edit: these customers would be unable to use Stadia properly, because of bad latency; at least you can capture them as customers.

This right here. In 1997 I resold a 56k connection over dialup and did a bang-up business until the local phone company put me out of business.

If you're already used to scheduling this overnight, having it done in only one night is going to be a significant improvement.

In KC you used to be able to get free Google Fiber at 10mbps. Free as in beer.

I never needed anything better than that to watch Netflix or program or enjoy basic internet browsering. It was awesome!

To get that out in a rural area and have it reliable is a game changer for a lot of people.

As someone who lives in a city where ~15 mbps is the max you can get... this is accurate. Streaming in 1080p with high quality may not work. Downloading a game over 80gb requires a couple of days. Oh, and I have just 1mbps upload, so syncing a video from my phone to Google Photos may take a couple of hours as well. ISPs need competition.

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