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Comment by jordanbeiber | Hacker News Reader

Tangential but something that have been buging me for a while - these type events are not enough brought in to the equation when EVs are compared to ICEs.

I usually get comparisons to the refined gas/diesel with the whole process of the battery.

Not saying batteries are great for the environment, but we have had so many leaks during the years. Deep horizon is still leaking and where almost at 1.000.000 m3 if I recall correctly.

At least with batteries the pollution is kept more localized, which I believe is to be preferred.

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Wait till all the used Tesla’s get resold in poor countries and all those batteries end up in rivers and the ocean.

By that time these countries all have a stable power supply for EV, and we together enforce an improved recycling technology & policy.

If they reach a point where it makes sense to buy teslas, we’re all good!

We who buy teslas (I’m not though. Out of my league) today have a responsibility in this world, IMO.

NOT because we can and buy teslas, but because we are super rich. We have to use this wealth better, set examples and improve technology and our ways of living.

You are not super rich, you cannot even buy a Tesla.

That aside, you are correct though.

I think he was referring to his society not himself personally.

This was not meant about me as an individual, but...

I’ve got way more than I need in life.

Riches should be judged differently - I have a really nice home in an somewhat expensive city, clean tap water, comparatively clean air and access to all the healthy food I can ever want. Also great healthcare and schooling, cause welfare state and all that.

Let’s start there.

I could buy a tesla if I really really wanted to, but there’s no need. I’d have to take a car loan, but most who buy a tesla do I reckon.

A car half the price suits my needs, and no loans. This means I’m comparatively super rich.

If the people who could afford Teslas had not bought them, Tesla would have failed as a car company. VW and others would then not be interested in electrification today, and the environment would have been a lot worse off in the long run.

Few would argue that Tesla hasn't significantly sped up the transition towards electric cars. It's easy to fall into the trap of underestimating (or completely forgetting about) effects that are hard to quantify and/or are long-term.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. Tesla has been instrumental to opening up the EV floodgates.

What I’m saying is that we need to set examples with regards to manufacturing, recycling, waste management and resource consumption

Today we use and abuse a bit to much.

It will realize prices of stuff, meaning less overall consumption per individual, but might end up globally sustainable.

Nissan Leaf outsold Tesla for several years, until other carmakers joined the market. Tesla is just one of many.

You mean in the countries where they literally dig up live copper wires to sell for cash?

Why would they dump hundreds of kilos of very expensive rare earth metals to rivers?

technically true but in this large mess you're never sure material won't leak (maybe few but still)

Li-ion batteries generally don't contain appreciable amounts of rare earths (if any).

By weight they're mostly nickel, cobalt, aluminium and copper - all valuable materials, just not rare earths.

I think "dump them in the river" was a metaphor for "seriously damage the environment in order to extract the valuable bits" which is what we currently see with most waste processing.

Used EV batteries will probably be a backbone for gridscale batteries and quite valuable. Nobody is going to dump them anywhere. Even after they're through in their grid role they're still full of expensive metals. A recycling industry is bound to pop up.

the same is true for computer hardware, but have you seen how electronic waste is actually recycled?

It's basically an environmental and health disaster, just shifted to poor people in China.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Guiyu

Imho a better comparison are lead batteries where we achieve really good recycling rates.

Most old computer hardware isn't re-used (and often cannot be).

sure, but I was referring to the part in the parent comment which talked about a "recycling industry".

You mean burn the precious materials out of them and all the waste going into the water/air like you see with electronics boards...

Recycling for Battery EVs is going to be a much more thriving industry as the designers are taking care of these things. Also i believe mining the batteries for the constituents will always be valuable.

If the Tesla 1 million mile battery is as real as the CATL 1 million mile claimed battery, an electric car is actually going to last at least 3x that of an ICE car assuming all other components (motors, body, powertrain) is also improved.

Brakes already last longer whereas because total no of components in EV is much lower (literally like 10x less moving parts) maintenance is also much, much easier.

You need to educate yourself on how rapidly EV manufacturing, recycling and other aspects are evolving.

I look forward to it. Lithium batteries are quite 'meh' compared to other battery technologies using carcinogenic materials, or combustion technology which leaks many nasty liquids.

I doubt that is a concern but it’s easy to prove me wrong. What has happened to the 15 year old hybrid batteries?

Oil extraction issues comes up all of the time in the discussion of fossil fuels vs electric.

Maybe not enough or frequent on a higher level such as in regular/mainstream news then.

Being an early owner of EVs I’ve had to explain my rationale many times to people, where oil spills is one part obviously.

The Anti-EV crowd tends to include everything starting from the diet of the mine workers digging up the metals needed from the batteries into the emissions of the EV.

They tend not to include the environmental effects of oil drilling and transportation into the figures for ICE cars.

Double standards and all that.

Let's not forget the costs of wars to keep the oil flowing (when calculating oil costs).

The wars are not for oil. The wars are for control of the profits from oil

Massive batteries on EV is another dangerous parts.

Anyway it's off topic. Leakage from oil tanker accident is unrelated to leakage from ICEs accident. Reducing importing oil by EV would be on topic.

Well the gas doesn’t magically appear at the station...

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