Stated more broadly to those who may not fall in this bucket: if location did not affect your career prospects and/or economic wellbeing, where would you move and why?
- Identify the thing you really want to do most in life.
- Find the place in the world where you can do that the best.
- Find a house there.
For me, as a rock climber, that meant moving to a little village near Fontainebleau, France, where they keep the best Bouldering in the world.
For you, it might mean finding the best concentration of snowboarding, a really good surf break that somehow has affordable houses near it (which probably means Puerto Rico, from my research), a cheapish southwestern Austin'y town with a good music scene, or if you're lucky in choosing your hobbies, a beautiful, unknown trout stream way up in the hills.
It could also turn out that the place you want to be is "The Road". There's something to be said for flying one-way to a strange corner of the world, and slowly making your way through it while working from the laptop (3G is ubiquitous nearly everywhere you'd expect it wouldn't exist). You might need to choose your spot carefully this year in particular, but this was what I did for 10 years or so before settling on that house.
The important thing is that it's actually somewhere you'd rather be spending your time, so make sure you really know what it is that you want out of life. Because if there's no reason to be near an office, it only makes sense to be near something better.
I still take a few months off to go live in Japan or wherever every year, but I mostly use freedom to optimize for relationships instead of activities. I still see the same group of highschool friends every week - going on 25 years now.
It’s not as adventurous, but this is what my life is about.
Saves a lot of work with step three! All the best.
Few questions come to my mind: - Where was your initial setup (France, EU, overseas)? - How much savings did you have? - Which industry? - Are you working remote as FTE, or are you freelancer/consulting/having your own company? - How's the internet, doctors, infrastructure?
Thanks!
Eventually, as it became more possible, I started lugging a laptop along and doing client work from the beach on rest days from climbing. I'd sometimes stop in one place for a month or so just to go heads down for a client or on my own project stuff.
In 2011, I took a full-time contract for a fully remote company in the 'states, while living in England. I was their furthest "remote" employee at the time, though they quickly started hiring more once they realized that it worked. There were guys on the team working poolside while digital nomadding around the world by the time I left 5 years later.
France happened after a long search to find a good surf break to set up shop at. The issue there is that surf always happens right next to the beach, where they keep all the $5M houses. Or in places full of grumpy expat American surfers that we decided we didn't want to be our sole source of potential friends.
Climbers, on the other hand, don't get grumpy and territorial over climbing areas. They're just generally lots of fun to be around, so the only real trick is to find a place that you won't climb out. Most crags have only a few hundred routes at the level you'll be operating at (even factoring in improvement from living next to said crag), so lots of cool places (including Tonsai beach iteslf) got ruled out on those grounds. Font, however, has 30,000 problems recorded and new 7th grade lines going up at the rate of about one every 3 days. It'll be tough to catch up.
As to living, it works itself out. They have doctors, grocery stores and schools everywhere in the world. Do what the locals do and you'll be fine.
Hope to see you out here one of these days!
EDIT: It occurs that I actually wrote a whole article on this once. Shoulda just linked it:
https://expatsoftware.com/articles/guy-on-the-beach-with-a-l...
Surfers too were once stoked to share. I imagine climbing will soon reach that critical mass?
Nice of you to share this. I'm moving nearer to the coast for the surf/climbing/hiking. (2020 plan, pre covid, now accelerated!)
edit:
> "I suppose", I said, "I could stick around on a Contract..."
Nice article, I like the pic of you doing support on that sailing boat
I’d really like to move to Asheville or Charleston, but the taxes make it a bit too much of a premium over Chattanooga.
I think if I hadn't known Knoxville before, I'd have chosen Chatt due to the internet and vibe. But I can't complain as I've always loved Knoxville.
Edit: California doesn't distinguish between income and capital gain. Federal, though, you would still have to pay even if you go to Tennessee, right?
Started thinking about moving to Denver...
But, I don’t really want to move yet. See - the thing is - I’m in the Bay Area because I want to make it. I came here because I needed /a/ job. Then I got sucked in and decided I wanted /the/ job. I want to get the big $$$ and be able to afford that nice house in Los Gatos with a 911 in my driveway. Doesn’t mean I would pull the trigger if I had the money - I won’t know until I’m there. But moving away - well, it means that’s definitely never going to happen. I’m not ready to accept that level of failure yet. After all, I’m not even 30 yet. I got a few days left. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.
You don't need to own a 911 and a nice house in a super expensive part of the world to be happy and have a very successful life.
It's nice and important to have goals, but it seems like you are falling for a classic capitalism trick : you always want more expensive possessions and you keep working hard for that. Overall, nobody really cares about what you are driving and how nice is your kitchen.
You can rent a 911 and a nice house for holidays if it's your dream. And move on.
> The median home value in Los Gatos is $1,984,735.
https://www.zillow.com/los-gatos-ca/home-values/
L6/E6/etc... should do it
There are very few places in the country that can give me all of these things I want at a bargain value. Even though I'm 100% remote, I always have Atlanta to fall back on if remote work dries up. I can't stress how important that peace of mind is (pun intended). I've lived and worked in the Pacific Northwest and just couldn't make it work financially.
Good place to be, as long as you're not a chicken.
I’ve always wanted to buy some land there to recreation. I’d love any advice you want to share.
I honestly don't see companies going back to in-office stuff, at least not as much as it was in the past. I could see meetings and stuff like that being in-person. My company has already basically transitioned to 100% online and our productivity has increased overall so no way we are going back to in-office working exclusively.
Also, how much did you sell in the Bay? I’m just kinda like... “why live in Reno if you sold Bay Area property and therefore could easily buy a house in Lake Tahoe proper...”
Move to Hawaii? :)
If 50% of income goes to rent, you burn right through your savings if you want some time off.
Another thing to consider is that if you're young and don't have a family yet, moving to a remote location where you'll be completely alone just so you can pay less for rent seems kind of dumb.
Yet another thing - nobody's job is all that secure right now. Even if attitudes towards remote work have changed, a big city is still your best chance of finding work. So if you're laid off in near the future, living in the middle of nowhere will only make things worse.
I’m sorry but this just strikes me as an extremely black-and-white view of the world. I for one moved to a village after college, work remotely for about 10y, and couldn’t be happier. I have a decent sized house, my backyard is the start of a small forest, and I’m in a city in about 1h of traveling.
To each their own, I guess, but I can equally make a case why moving to a city to pay high rent prices seems kind of dumb.
No one moves to a city to pay high rent prices. The higher rent is a tradeoff that you make for certain benefits of living in a big city (which may or may not be worth it for each individual). My point was that when you move to a remote location purely for the lower cost (which people do), you're making another set of tradeoffs that are often ignored.
Obviously no one is going to check whether a couple is actually cohabitating or whether a group of friends are actually roommates. Compliance is low. But that's why this mess is dragging on forever.
While I agree that lackadaisical response is making this drag on, I don't think San Francisco contributes much to that.
Prioritizing harm reduction interventions (e.g. handing out masks) over punitive enforcement (e.g. tickets) is more of a general San Francisco policy. Still illegal.
[0] http://sfrecpark.org/AlertCenter.aspx?AID=June-1-Health-Orde...
In Denmark, private meeting has never been banned, and public meeting was limited to 10 at the strictest point.
Companies provide remote work options all the time and once you move they ask you to come back into the office out of the blue thenlay remote workers off if they cant come back into the office.
The other thing you need to keep in mind is a lot of the places you want to live have people who don't want you living there. If they find out you work remote and don't need anyone they will start screwing around with your life.
If you move and work remote be extremely careful, dont assume you're welcome anywhere in the countrh a lot of places are filled with backwards luddites who hate anyone in STEM fields. Yes, this is a real thing.
I've lived in po-dunk farmlands in flyover states and actual swamp towns of 900 residents during my time as a remote software developer, and have never experienced any of this. I don't understand why it would ever come up. Can you elaborate?
On a side note, I have a neighbor that decided to run for local office the first year he moved to our town. I found it interesting that someone would want to run for office before getting to know the people, not to mention that's a pretty quick time to form opinions about the town's politicians to the point of wanting to take their office. I guess it doesn't matter since he wasn't elected.
I will warn you though that if you move from population centers you will soon discover a lack of the stores and entertainment venues from them.
I watched this happen a few jobs ago. New CTO came in and changed everything. Fired all the Business analysts and gutted a few other teams. The few remote workers were told to move back or say goodbye.
I imagine if that's your attitude then you are pretty much guaranteed to experience that wherever you choose to move. Even another big city.
>If you move and work remote be extremely careful, dont assume you're welcome anywhere in the countrh a lot of places are filled with backwards luddites who hate anyone in STEM fields. Yes, this is a real thing.
I've never experienced this, especially renting long term 3months + or airbnb for weeks-monthly.
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>thenlay remote workers off if they cant come back into the office.
Agreed, this is the IBM and Yahoo plan all over again.
This is why I'm staying put in San Jose, at least for now.
But Hawaii looks incredible. I hope to visit them both and make a decision when more things are open in both places to get a feel for them.
I think both are probably close to tech wastelands so will need to have employment that allows remote from those states to do it.
And you're right, it's definitely a tech wasteland here. And the predominant culture of locals and hippies is anti-intellectual. But it's great to live near the ocean, hiking trails and one of the safest places in the US (if you're not directly in Honolulu)
It's a small community but not totally a wasteland
What does this mean to you?
There is not much hunting on the islands, other than iguanas, but there is a big spearfishing community which is a lot like hunting underwater. That being said, there is hog, duck, python and alligator hunting 2 hours up the road in the everglades.
I am a hunter (I eat what I kill, I don't kill for the sake of getting the kill), and I will tell you, Python hunting ranks up there as one of the craziest, scariest hunting I have ever done. They just don't die, their nervous system takes over when you shoot them and they are pissed, they know who shot them, and they want payback. They come straight for you and you have to get enough shots in a fast moving snakes head before he gets to you, to stop them. I have literally had to shoot one with my sidearm, as he latched onto my leg and was winding up on me. Python hunting is not for the faint of heart.
https://www.sfwmd.gov/our-work/python-program#:~:text=An%20a....
Let’s see how things are looking come winter though. Could be pretty grim without bars/restaurants to go to.
I can't wait to get out. Been here ten years, working remotely for the past five. Can't really justify it anymore unless things improve quickly. Got randomly assaulted outside my own building a few weeks back - the guy didn't even try to take anything. Just punched me in the face five times and ran off. I went through a similar wave in the late 80s as a kid, I don't like the looks of all this.
It may get bad for you quickly as well. Consider being ready with a plan B.
What's the point of paying 2k+ to be there if you're just gonna sit inside all day.
The financial leverage of USD is great there, and the last few years have led me to believe I'm not a good culture-fit in the US.
Tourist and expat investments have brought money to the area, and the city we're headed to is considered notably safe for North America generally, let alone Mexico.
https://ss2.climatecentral.org/#7/18.579/-91.967?show=satell...
The motivating factors for me are money and family (though I would argue that my brother more importantly means friendship to me).
Would you mind sharing your experience with 4G connectivity? Where do you get service? Is it good enough for video conferencing?
Combination of family and a more favorable climate. The somewhat lower cost of living doesn’t hurt, but it’s not like Denver is cheap.
Low humidity is also why we get the really powdery snow that is great for skiing.
My MIL has been living on her own for a while now, so my wife and I will be moving in with her to help her out, be close to family, and save $.
My quick estimate is that it'll save us ~24K/year. I used to be able to justify rent and other expenses but it's never seemed dumber to me. If/when we move back to the city where I work, we will do so when we can buy a house/condo.
We will use this saved money to pay off debt, save, and help out our family.
P.S. I should clarify that we are moving from a large city to a very small town in a nearby state where COL is significantly lower.
A little bit lonely, too. But, the cities are too expensive and everything is so compressed. Maybe if I could afford an actual house in a city that would be OK.
Picked suburbs between Denver and Boulder. Good tech jobs, similar sunshine and outdoor activities as the Bay Area (but with snow also! we’ll see how that goes), affordable housing and better COL.
If location did not affect my career I probably would move around a lot. (Sans covid19) I'd like to go to Mexico, Italy, SE Asia ... many places in the US too.
It affects my well being in a very positive way. I can walk my dogs without breathing in polluted air. I sleep great since it's very silent and get to do other stuff than just sit by the computer.
Also - companies that are doing salary "adjustments" because employee wants to move to another location needs to be publicly shamed.
Meanwhile they can't create a decent online curriculum so kids can learn from home.
It's a joke. Teachers and the School Districts get whatever they ask for because voters are too stupid to figure out what it costs them. I guy I work with doesn't even know how much he pays in tax every year since it is in escrow with his mortgage payment. He just votes yes because it's for the kids you know.....
It of course depends on where you live, but if you want to live anywhere that's desirable near city centers..
https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-property-tax-calcula... https://smartasset.com/taxes/texas-property-tax-calculator#t...
And since I would only get to stay 180 days per year in Colombia, I would probably spend a few months in Costa Rica and in the Peruvian Amazon.
- super cheap cost-of-living
- no state income taxes
- cheapest flights in the US
- no natural disasters
- close to Los Angeles (where all my friends/family live)
- no grafitti or litter in most places
- reasonable traffic
- plenty of things to do (shows, Red Rock, conferences)
- friends from across the US will visit once or twice per year
- lots of open space
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But I guess the REAL reason I moved is because I wanted a chance to reinvent myself. My friends weren't helping me grow, I developed some terrible habits, I felt "trapped", etc.. Changing cities gives me another chance to be intentional about my time, career, and relationships.
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If there are any other current/future Vegas locals out there, I'd love to meet you! Feel free to reach out with an email or DM.
I mostly lived around the city center in a house until the high rise condo developers came.
I like visiting Austin, but after spending time in Boston and NYC Austin is flat out boring and self-centered.
It pains me, but for the past 2-3yrs I candidly refer to my home-town as quote "a shittier less cool version of LA that somehow manages to try harder".
In US, I would get somewhere with a lot of land. Montana, ND, Wyoming, something like that.
Outside US, Probably Norway for a while. Would also love to try out New Zeland or SE Asia.
ND has quite a lot of Norwegians. Since I cannot eat potatoes, I fear their cuisine.
My plan is to work here for a few more years. If the trend continues and remote working proves itself, we are dreaming about moving to Asheville NC. Cheaper CoL, beautiful scenery, and a microbrew scene that is awesome. Also close-ish to Charlotte if you want to go to a "big city" for the day
Kira beach is amazing.
Stan
Relative to the Bay Area and other major Texas cities, it has a really low cost of living. We also have great parks, great food, less traffic than Austin, and it's only about 2 and a half hours from the beach. In non-COVID times the social life is pretty great too.
There aren't a lot of tech companies, but there are enough jobs for me not to worry if for some reason I couldn't do fully remote in the future.
It's generally just a laid back place to be, and I enjoy living in a place where the cost of living is low enough that people in a variety of non-corporate careers can do pretty well.
The only downside for me is the brutal heat, but you kind of get used to it.
I am from San Diego. It took me awhile but I eventually got the courage and circumstances to move to Tijuana a few years ago. I couldn't really afford to stay in the US anyway unless I got a different job.
Its a tiny startup and very low pay but I have plenty of energy on the weekends etc. for my own projects and it's low stress. Also have the ocean a block away and convenience store downstairs and very low rent.
If I had a real salary I would probably move back to the US though. Somewhere that they don't turn the water off multiple times during the summer.
Moving up from there you have the no-mans land of the beach rich that spans from Jupiter to Sebastian. This is a nice area, has a bit of a drug problem but not that bad. But if you don't like the rich socialite yacht club type, there is not much in this area.
From there you get into what I consider to be one of the worst areas of FL and that is Melbourne and the blight pretty much runs all the way up to Jacksonville. It is littered with Meth heads, Oxy, joblessness, economic depression and suburban blight. Think a run down suburbia of central New Jersey in FL and that is pretty much what it is. The only city in that swath that is nice is St. Augustine, I got married there and honestly it is the only city on the east coat that I would consider moving to.
Central Florida is pretty much all the same as Miami with the exception of Police corruption, the cops there are generally pretty decent. The one bad thing about Central Florida is the shear sprawl of it, no mass transit and every bad driver in the world wants to go to Disney so they bring all their different ways of bad driving to Central Florida for a grand demolition derby.
North FL and the panhandle are nice, but you have to be the type that can deal with the people there. They are ultra-conservative but generally have a live and let live attitude. For example, say 2 gay guys went into a diner in NF, they would most likely be greeted with some kind of slang like what will you have fruitcakes and stuff like that, Think being welcomed in by Andrew Dice Clay with a southern accent. Manytime's these people think they are generally being funny, but what you won't see is them following them down the street, harassing or assaulting them. But if you trigger it is not the place for you, they will say sexist, racist, and homophobic stuff a lot of times just as jabs to see if they can ruffle your feathers. But they would not go and burn down their house just because they are gay, black or lesbian. That being said, they like their sleepy little towns sleepy so if you started instigating for change, you might ruffle some feathers in that area. Point being, it's nice, it's quaint, the people are not hate mongers, but they are also not politically correct. They kind of live by a motto of don't cause a problem and their won't be one. If you can live in those parameters, North Florida is a nice place.
Now and I hate to even put this on the net, the real gem of FL is the west cost. It has it's pockets of blight like Polk and Hernado county but pretty much all the way down, you will find beautiful, old Florida towns, where the people have the old Florida attitude of live and let live. Of note some of the really nice places are Cedar Key, Hommossassa, Crystal River, Tarpon Springs, Tampa (the only big FL city I would ever consider living in again), Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Punta Gorda and Port Charlotte. If I went back to the mainland it would be to the west coat. That being said, I live in what I consider to be the best part of FL, the Keys.
I'm in SoCal, not sure what you mean?
I honestly would not be surprised if they do layoffs at the end of the year. I'd flip out though. Ideally, we'd like to move to Austin to save $2k per month on rent and 13% of our salaries on state income tax.
But as I’ve said in other threads where this comes up: Working from Thailand legally is not the easiest thing in the world, and doing it long term is even harder.
3/4 of the Engineers on my team have moved to the 'west end' neighborhood in the last couple years. And i'm now the 4th. Incredible nature w/ healthily-managed high population density & safety. And it's incredible being in close proximity with your team (e.g. hike/ski-meetings)
My future plan is to identify a place where I can find good dev projects, next to skateparks and surf areas.
Any recommendations are welcome !
Indonesian government allowed to stay everyone until the end of the pandemic even though the country is closed.
I am in Bangalore so I guess I'd be Hyderabad or Chennai. On the plus side I will also get rid of atrocious rents and traffic of Bangalore.
1-2 year plan also involves exploring options outside India. Somewhere where if something like COVID-19 hits again I won't need a politician's phone call, or a powerful bureaucrat relative's clout to get even a test done (though I've neither), let alone a hospital bed. Yeah, it's that bad here.
Maybe years/months later when real numbers come out (if it happens) the world will see on what scale it was going on in India. Is there a word for this - something like a genocide but not really genocide in literal sense?
[NSFW/L] https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/andhra-pradesh-shocker...
It's 100% worth the money IMO, however, I've also strongly considered New Hampshire, Utah or Nevada.
and maybe the market will normalize enough for me to be able to buy in!
Most people have ZERO idea what this country is, how vast and unpopulated it is. You can have a mountain to yourself in many areas. The west is essentially empty. You can have 360 mountain views in a beautiful agricultural valley. You can live on a uninhabited part of a lake or river. You can live in an area that looks like a national park. Just need stable power, water, and internet which is/will be easy with solar and sat internet.
But seriously, has me wondering how sat net will change the RE market once people can move away and stay connected.