What is Jio, and why are tech’s biggest players suddenly obsessed with it?
onezero.medium.com
onezero.medium.com
> Jio was able to achieve these cheap rates by acquiring the only firm that won a pan-India 4G license, leveraging the superiority and cost-efficiency of 4G compared to older cellular standards, and because of the unparalleled size and resources of its parent company. [emphasis mine]
> A sizable portion of the investments will go toward paying off the existing debts accumulated by Reliance to fund this extravagant project and its other businesses,
Reading between the lines in this article, it sounds like Reliance is simply buying market share by running Jio at a big loss, and temporarily making up the difference with huge investment rounds. I feel like we've seen this show a lot lately and it doesn't always work out.
https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/reliance...
IIRC, that farm was simply a proxy with some back channel deals. Parent Company didn’t want their names in auction, that would have made the auction much more expensive. So they acquired the spectrum trough a front-face farm and later acquired it.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/telecom/teleco...
I'm super curious what technical reasons mandate that there can be only one 4G license in a country with 1.4 billion people. And how that affects competition in a country that has Corruption Perception Index equal to that of Morocco, Ghana, China or Benin.
edit: formatting
Source?
Jio is not the only telecom in India with 4g spectrum or services. I personally use Airtel, and I get 4g everywhere I go without issues.
>I'm super curious what technical reasons mandate that there can be only one 4G license in a country with 1.4 billion people.
The confusion you have seems to stem from the fact that Jio advertises itself as India's only full 4g network. What that means is that the greenfield network build by Jio only uses and supports 4g networks and not the older 2g and 3g networks. So in other words, the Jio network is 4g exclusive for it's customers.
The older telecom are older and still operate old 2g and 3g networks so they cannot market themselves that way
Longer version : Reliance/Ambani family have ties to pretty much the entire political spectrum in India and not just the current govt. This is one of the reasons why they have thrived since 70s when the group was started by Mukesh Ambani's (current CMD) father Dhirubhai. But this is not the only reason they have thrived, they started with polyester and captured the entire upstream upto crude refining. The Jamnagar refinery project was started in the 90s and was setup under the supervision of Mukesh. It is the largest refining complex in the world with some of the best refining margins in the world. Aramco almost bought a 20% stake in it recently, a deal which got suspended because of Covid.
As far as the pan India 4G license goes, it came at a time when others were still topping up their 2G and 3G licenses which were selling at a much higher premium due to the competition. It wasn't as if it was not on offer to others, it just did not make business sense for them at the time. And the license was auctioned around 2009-2010 while the current government only came to power in 2014. The conversion of pan India broadband license to 4G also happened before 2014. Heck, I remember seeing the Jio backbone OFC cables being laid in multiple cities before 2014. Corruption at the highest level (multiple cases involving multiple ministries, even reaching the Prime Minister) was one of the main reasons the previous UPA govt was routed in 2014.
Ref : https://web.archive.org/web/20130606064256/http://www.ground... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/oil-gas...).
Jio has the market.
It completely ignores the real stories in technology and development which make people invest.
Read the book "The Polyester Prince". The Ambani's got it banned in India.
It's an open secret that the Ambani's are the most corrupt family in India.
Not very sure about that lol!
That way corruption is very hard to measure in India. There was one story like an year back in the state of Telangana where a sub-inspector was caught, the raid revealed he was worth around 300 crore rupees. That is what he was unable to hide. What he was able to hide would be way more. He was also stupid flaunting around his wealth. Your tax commissioners, property registration DCs, other government front line approval staff, or police are just worth more than your ordinary industrialist these days. The ones below them, the lower level government bribe potential jobs easily beat the net worths of may be even top execs in your Software firms.
This is illegal bribe. Legal bribes run even more deep. I knew of a person whose dad was in IAS, that man would get a plots(for negligible prices) from politicians every time BDA launched a layout in Bangalore. This is legal stuff. Their family is likely worth in upwards of a few hundred crores.
Another sorry sight in any Indian city is traffic police standing around in corners making bribes, when they pull out bundles from their pockets to dispense change. Even a back of visual evaluation and a worse case back of envelop calculation you will see those men would have a few lacs in their pockets.
All the best catching them, because most of these people have associations, and they meet bi-weekly in hotels and work with their legal teams to safeguard themselves.
That way its hilarious to even try to evaluate net worth of politicians or big industrialists. Try checking the quantity of land banks real estate developers in a city like Bangalore own. Their game is set for decades.
Also looked up bribing traffic police as it sounds somewhat incredible. Found this: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio... According to that article, 82% of respondents (among truck drivers and fleet owners) alleged to have paid bribes in their last trip, at an estimated average of Rs 1257 (US$17) per trip (I assume people who’re annoyed about bribes are more likely to respond, so the reality should be somewhat better than 82% which is kind of crazy...).
if you do your due diligence companies like Reliance (Dhirubhai Ambani) are the reason most honest smart Indians are fleeing the country
From things like bribing the government at city and state levels, to 'disappearing competitors' to going after competitors with the sole purpose of killing them off
Of course, now with what is happening with TikTok you could argue US is fast becoming the same
you can just buy Government influence instead of having to compete
And I write this as an honest, maybe smart Indian sitting outside India.
> The regulatory capture of TRAI by JIO is very well known
It is very well known in the same vein as "Bush did 9/11", "George Soros is the boss of Illumnati", "Zuckerberg is a lizard human", "Freemasons rule the world", "Area 51 has aliens", etc. Essentially baseless urban myths.
They have none. Just arm-chair conspiracy theorists.
There are two things Modi is known for: 1. 2002 massacre of Muslims in Gujarat 2. Being friends with crony capitalists.
This is not an exaggeration. You can read about what he did in his state when he was the chief minister.
Not proved in any court of law in India. On the contrary, the Supreme Court of India exonerated Modi of all charges in the 2002 Godhra riots (source: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/sit-finds-no-proof-ag...).
Hacker News has become a den of conspiracy theorists! It is getting ridiculous now! How low will you stoop to defame someone without proof?
Can't believe there are ahole Modi bhakts here on HN.
What has this got to do with Modi? This is the biggest problem with you liberals. You can't debate on facts. The moment you are presented with facts you either shoot and scoot or indulge in diversions. Shows what shaky grounds you stand on!
As far as Salman Khan is concerned I believe he was driving and killed poor in 2002. Now this is my belief. It hasn't been proved in any Court and I am not fighting a case against him nor I have the urge. It is for the victims to take it to the logical conclusion and they are doing it. He was exonerated of charges in a High Court. It can always be appealed in the Supreme Court. I don't have any particular hatred for him, like you do for Modi, to pursue that case. I base my belief in circumstances surrounding the incident. I might be wrong too. That is why it is my "belief" and not a "fact".
But I will never turn my belief into a fact and try to assert to others that my belief is a fact. That if you don't agree with me you are an "asshole" and a "Salman Bhakt". Do you realize how stupid and ridiculous it sounds? You are trying to pass on your beliefs about Modi as facts and then getting riled up because someone called you out! It is borderline juvenile behavior. If this troubles you so much why don't you go to some Court and prove your allegations? Do some hard work for once?
> Can't believe there are ahole Modi bhakts here on HN.
You can call me an asshole as much as you want but you are just exposing your own self. You haven't proved anything against Modi. In any Court of Law. Neither when Congress was in power nor now. This is all you people are good at: calling sane people "bhakts" and "assholes". But when it comes to actually walking the talk you guys hide in some closet!
How do you explain TikTok getting banned when Facebook got away with same stuff?
How do you explain the amendment of Privacy Bill to become something so embarassing that Supreme Court even felt ashamed to pass it?
Frankly, it is getting a bit stale and feels a lot like the standard Redditesqe drive-by factless commenting behavior to gain cheap karma and dopamine hits of raging against the system. HN is supposed to be better.
> They can essentially bulldoze government over any rules and regulations, and bribe around freely.
Um no. Can you show any, any incidences of them breaking the law or bribing anything other than "I know deep down in my heart of hearts that they do"?
And regarding bulldozing regulations or skirting them, isn't that how every corporation works. Hell, that is essentially how every SV company, big or startup works. And so does any other company in any other country. Nothing unique or special going on here that should be pointed out in every thread.
> This is how Reliance got big.
This is not how Reliance got big. They got big by work and bringing products to the market. The founder made his first IPO by quite literally hawking his shares alongside his products to retail customers. And Jio is not something that is mandatorily being shoved down people's throats. People willingly use it and pay for it.
Not a corporate scenario but google how Ambani took care of his son's car accident.
And anyways a lot of people can take care of such issues in every country. Not all of them are capitalists or businessmen. So I doubt this scenario ties in anyway with suspect business practices.
It does, it reflects your moral character, only someone who does not respect the rule of law would do what he did.
Mukesh Ambani is taking on seemingly unpalatable risks because he has nothing better to do with his money. He has a large amount of shareholder support and a huge base of users he can market Jio's products to. These users and the overall market will ultimately decide whether they want to use these products or not.
I'd also wager that Facebook has been lobbying the US government to ban TikTok. This is the first big threat they've had that they haven't been able to buy or crush
https://diff.substack.com/p/to-understand-jio-you-need-to-un...
a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24008244
a couple weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23908057
a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22941489
Oh dear...
Reliance has a lot of political backing (and Jio is what it is today because of concessions), but again strictly IMO, I think all these tech companies “investing” in Jio will be left holding the bag in a few years.
JIO already has a good amount of paying, repeating customers and they have the infrastructure setup and working already for 1B+ people (not subscribers).
So yeah, the tech companies might lose it but not like Uber / Wework did (IMO). Also, another important point to note is that Reliance, regardlesss of the political party, will have the backing.
If Jio is profitable, or would be profitable if it did not invest all the profits (like Amazon used to do), it's another story. But if the unit economy isn't working, then yes, it'b be an Uber, a unicorn which is too heavy for its own hooves.
https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/reliance...
They're also heavily indebted and that profit is propped up by some rather questionable accounting shenanigans, so take that number with a pinch of garam masala. Still, the unit economics in mobile telecoms are very different from an Uber: setting up a network from scratch is extremely expensive, but the net cost of adding an additional subscriber is nearly zero and the revenue from each additional user goes pretty much directly to the bottom line. (Again compare Uber, where they probably lose money on many rides due to driver subsidies, predatory pricing, algorithms not accounting for traffic etc.)
That is not the story with JIO, also JIO is also owned by RIL which has other businesses and would NOT need approvals / investments / bureaucracy to move cash from there to JIO, if need be.
WAY different than Uber / Wework, etc.
Probably something involving VoLTE.
- Jio is basically a monopoly
- It prints an absurd amount of money
- It's only "tech" because it can essentially control the smartphone market in India (INSANELY HUGE GROWTH)
- Ambani is the most powerful man in India, but also was over-leveraged on his oil business and needs capital for growth. He wants more global control/influence and US tech companies want more control over India. It's a win-win for both.
- $100B in 5 years is probably a lowball figure
In other words, imagine Google, AT&T, and WeChat all controlled by one company in one of the largest potential GDPs in the world.
Both grew up in India before migrating to US so understand India very well
In reality
Sundar Pichai - no
Satya Nadella - yes. This guy is a @#$#$ genius. And Indians have a lot of respect for smart people who deliver results
So, Indian Goverment is not owned by Reliance
However, all things being equal Indian Government would prefer an Indian company like Reliance owns the keys to the kingdom, rather than some imperialist cunt like Bezos or Zuckerberg
So now these imperialist companies have no choice but to team up with Reliance
Bezos' plans in India are screwed, though, by the way
WalMart/Flipkart was good competition and still #1
However, JioMart is basically as vicious and happy to do illegal things as Bezos and he has all the connections in India
So India can be written off completely for Amazon retail
Bezos' only choice now is to partner with Ambani as a small stakeholder
Recently ordered a few items on it. A toothpaste, some Almonds.
It came in a paper bag, wet from rain, soggy and a mess.
However there are two things that are massively in favor of JioMart.
Reliance already has about 11,000 stores in over 6700 cities. These are called "Reliance Fresh" and are quite popular. JioMart is using these stores to send orders to and deliver them.
The costs for capital and expenses for these stores are already done and most of them are profitable.
All JioMart is doing is to consolidate the stock information, take orders and push orders to appropriate stores.
Imperialism is a function of nation-states, not corporations.
Most nations have "national champion" corporations that work with the nation's government to promote/influence other nations. US/Boeing, EU/Airbus, France/Bull, etc.
So calling Bezos/Zuckerberg "imperialist" while Pichai/Nadella are somehow not is ridiculous. These are CEOs of corporations. All corporations are "imperialist" in that they are attempting to gain "market" against their competitors and they will co-opt their associated nation-state to help that.
Corporations are amoral by definition.
If the way this dynamic works in India is as I was told, like in Eastern Europe, then no.
A lot of stay at home high class people often have scorn for "whiz kids" returning from abroad, bringing with them their baggage, or plainly they envy them.
They see men who made to the top in a much more level playing field as somebody much superior to themselves, and they don't like it.
"What is Jio" isn't mentioned until the middle of the article.
Short answer, it's currently the most popular wireless provider in India; and it provides much more services.
I don't know how, this medium article I was able to read and other useful articles asks me join their membership.
End of day, 1. BSNL has higher reach in rural areas after then it was idea. Airtel & Jio are city based mostly that's where the speed is.
2. JioMart is a provision store, DMart is a provision store. If JioMart buys DMart then you can say ok he is here to stay. But buy FutureRetail which already sells only few specific brands not all. So what's the point.
3. Jio University, It's graded eminence but yet to be built. No comments.
May be ban of tiktok could be due to investment. Everybody in the country had Tiktok installed and happily watching all the 15-30sec videos, nobody was using fb. After the ban, in youtube now they are promoting some 15sec, it's not so interesting as tiktok. JioMeet was a ripoff of zoom. Just before a month, JioMeet was introduced GoI said zoom can be compromised, it's not banned because large corporations are already using it.
Ok. Now I am expecting some traffic to my site.
Since it’s inception they have been able to get unfair advantage by having or buying insiders from the government also they hire ex-bureaucrats for their network and no the moves in the government before it becomes public.
On top of it Indian government was holding back retail market access from international competition till they get to ramp up (which they have done for donkey years).
So if you need access to Indian market, you have cost up with Reliance and that’s why you see big players lining up.
If you manage to find it watch On YouTube their annual conference of a sort (similar to US Tech Companies), you will see all of this on display.
Essentially they are the Indian Government.
Case Point : TurboTax