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Comment by Thorentis | Hacker News Reader

There is no way to prove beyond doubt that ByteDance isn't having their data watched by the CCP, or that the CCP won't forcibly take their data in the future. That's just part of dealing with a company based in a country like China. You don't need proof that ByteDance is controlled by the CCP. You just need to see the way CCP deals with companies in its country, and the powers they have over companies within their borders.

Note: Yes, the US gov can do the same thing to US companies to some extent. But this about ByteDance and the CCP. And I think the assumption that you can't trust a Chinese based comapny (because of the CCP) is justified.

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> There is no way to prove beyond doubt that ByteDance isn't having their data watched by the CCP

Same is true for Microsoft.

World powers’ signals intelligence services don’t only monitor domestic or domestically-owned traffic.

I already addressed this in my comment. This decision is about the US government acting in the best interests of the US government. I was making the point that from a foreign interference perspective, the decision is justified.

> I already addressed this in my comment.

No, you didn't even attempt to. You addressed a concern about US government monitoring of Microsoft (which seems to be based on the same false premise that intelligence services only monitor domestic entities).

My point, which you did not address, is that transfer to a US owner doesn't somehow mean you have a guarantee that the PRC intelligence apparatus isn't monitoring it, just as it currently being owned by a Chinese entity doesn't provide a guarantee that the NSA isn't monitoring it.

So your argument is that any data that exists in the world might be monitored by the PRC, therefore we shouldn't be more wary of companies that operate inside the PRC because the PRC could be spying on everything everywhere anyway? Weak argument.

By that logic, you also can’t trust a US based company because of the US military intelligence community, which makes a Microsoft-run TikTok no more or less safe than a ByteDance-run one.

Which gets us back to square one about comparing the danger of each.

TRUE! Except this is the US government acting in the interests of the US government, you see?

No more or less safe to who?

It's the US Government doing this. The US Government probably doesn't view itself as a threat.

The users of the app, naturally. The concerns over it being a CCP-controlled app are about the risks to the users of the app.

Having it be a US-controlled app does not reduce those risks.

> You don't need proof that ByteDance is controlled by the CCP

Well, there is a counter proof. One of ByteDance's app (com.ss.android.essay.joke) was shutdown by CCP in 2018. Bytedance is a victim of governments bullies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/china-toutiao-...

> Vulgar content on the Neihan Duanzi app had “caused strong dislike among internet users,” a brief notice from the State Administration of Radio and Television said. The company was told to clean up its other platforms, too.

That's actually not a counter proof. It shows that they couldn't stand up to the bully. We don't have to question the Tiktok leadership's intent, just the CCP's intent and its ability.

That... just shows that ByteDance will do what the CCP says. Which is exactly the problem being discussed here.

> ByteDance will do what the CCP says

If bytedance does what CCP says there won't be any app shutdown in the first place.

> There is no way to prove beyond doubt that ByteDance isn't having their data watched by the CCP

Is there a way to prove after Snowden that there is no direct data pipe between Microsoft data centers and NSA

I'll speak for myself only, but if the choice is between the US gov't (or any Western gov't) having my data versus China having it, I'll pick the Western countries.

to be honest, you'd rather have the government other than your place of living to have your data.

Not necessarily. For example, if your data contains something that is embarrassing but not illegal, a foreign government is more likely decide to use that to blackmail you into committing crimes (say, industrial espionage) on their behalf.

this is not technically impossible, but a slippery slope to go on, I wouldn't risk prison time just to save an embarrassment for sure.

For most, this depends on how serious the embarrassment is, and how much risk there is of getting caught.

The same can be said about US companies as well, or not?

I mention this in my comment. The same can be said for US companies. But this is the US government making a decision about TikTok. And obviously the US government is okay with their own companies seeing the data. This isn't about that. This is about the US Gov assessing the risk of data being collected by the CCP. And I'm saying that the decision is justified based on the CCP's track record.

No need to justify anything. The US gov can do whatever it wants

For the exact same logic - there is no way to prove beyond doubt that you are not stealing money from your mum!

Correct. And so when the government assesses my risk when going for a clearence or job application, they will look at whether I have a history of theft, a criminal record, etc. We can see the CCP's track record when doing the risk assessment of TikTok.

Which is not the same comparison. That would be that kids have a track record of stealing from their moms, and since you're a kid you don't get clearance.

the thing that troubles me that an entertainment platform becoming a national security risk. what is the boundary?

The way I see it...

If ByteDance is letting the Chinese government use their other app, Douyin, as a propaganda platform for the CCP and banning entire races from using it in their native language on their direction: https://www.codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/xinjiang-china-...

And entering joint ventures with CCP owned media companies https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bytedance-filing/bytedanc...

... then why shouldn't people assume they're not independent of the CCP?

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