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Comment by FooBarWidget | Hacker News Reader

Wait a minute... what happened to "we are against the CCP, not the Chinese people" and "the Chinese people and the CCP are separate"?

There is no concrete evidence of spying. Tiktok is a private company. Yes one or more people in Tiktok may have ties with CCP members. But doesn't banning the whole of Tiktok, without concrete evidence, based merely on some level of association with CCP (and the level of association isn't even clear or proven at this point), then how can people still claim "the Chinese people and the CCP are separate"?

It seems more like we're moving more and more towards "anything and everybody from China equals CCP and the whole of China is evil".

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> There is no concrete evidence of spying.

No but there's evidence of CCP propaganda already, just try to make a video about Taiwan, Hong-Kong or the insecurity issues within China and notice your account being banned.

And before anyone tells me "it's the same as Facebook", I can go right now on Facebook and find as much anti-american or anti-Trump content as you want.

> But doesn't banning the whole of Tiktok, without concrete evidence, based merely on some level of association with CCP (and the level of association isn't even clear at this point)

The level of association is pretty clear, unless you have no knowledge on how large companies operates in China.

> It seems more like we're moving more and more towards "anything and everybody from China equals CCP and the whole of China is evil".

No, I'm only against the CCP, maybe one day the Chinese people will have the government they deserve.

I can tell you one kind of content that can get someone banned from Facebook: pro-China content. Even if someone genuinely believes that being pro-China is right, and that that person is not a bot.

> The level of association is pretty clear, unless you have no knowledge on how large companies operates in China.

> No, I'm only against the CCP, maybe one day the Chinese people will have the government they deserve.

This looks like a huge contradiction to me. "Private companies in China have to follow Chinese law, so private Chinese companies are associated with CCP, so we should ban private Chinese companies, but I'm only against CCP".

Imagine someone disagreeing with PRISM, and making the same statement as above, but substituting "CCP" with "American government".

> I can tell you one kind of content that can get someone banned from Facebook: pro-China content. Even if someone genuinely believes that being pro-China is right, and that that person is not a bot.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. CGTN is still there on Facebook for example. They weren't even kicked out despite blatantly faking their subscribers count (yeah it's that obvious).

> This looks like a huge contradiction to me. "Private companies in China have to follow Chinese law, so private Chinese companies are associated with CCP, so we should ban private Chinese companies, but I'm only against CCP".

In China, if you did not know, there is no rule of law, the CCP is the law. Any large companies needs to have a CCP representative. There is no independent large company in China, that's not a thing yet.

> Imagine someone disagreeing with PRISM, and making the same statement as above, but substituting "CCP" with "American government".

The problem isn't just the data, it's the propaganda and the reach of the CCP.

>> Imagine someone disagreeing with PRISM, and making the same statement as above, but substituting "CCP" with "American government".

> The problem isn't just the data, it's the propaganda and the reach of the CCP.

The problem is the method by which each entity might effect their goals.

In the US: Go to FISA/FISC and request a warrant. Otherwise, request a surveillance warrant in normal court.

In China: Go to the company in the dead of night, and tell them what they need to do.

In the former, you at least have a paper trail. In the latter, you have nothing.

I dont have any friends who are pro china on Facebook so I cant prove/disprove but I see plenty of pro china content on hacker news. None of it is being actively scrubbed by the US Government. This is the big difference between operating in China vs United States.

> try to make a video about Taiwan, Hong-Kong or the insecurity issues within China and notice your account being banned.

That seems to be a meme on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@smokingpineapple/video/6747343325621...

Edit: Also this hashtag: https://www.tiktok.com/tag/chinazi?lang=en Less than 4000 views implies that it might be censored, I guess?

I would be convinced if you can find a Chinese citizen, in China, posting about Pro Taiwan or Pro Hong Kong videos on TikTok.

Tiktok is blocked in China and can only be accessed using VPN. Of course there are still people who do that, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to identify them and verify their nationality. So you'll have to remain unconvinced.

Edit: Actually, if you could find that kind of video on another platform, it would be possible to upload it on TikTok and see what happens.

> No but there's evidence of CCP propaganda already, just try to make a video about Taiwan, Hong-Kong or the insecurity issues within China and notice your account being banned.

https://www.tiktok.com/tag/uighur https://www.tiktok.com/tag/hongkongprotests

Go to any of the hashtags for those issues and you'll find the hashtag still active, people bringing awareness and jokes about how they'll be banned.

China's National Security Law makes it a legal requirement on citizens that:

> Any organization or citizen shall support, assist and cooperate with the state intelligence work in accordance with the law, and keep the secrets of the national intelligence work known to the public.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law#Lega...

At that point, the CCP doesn't differentiate between "the Chinese people" and the CCP. They legally all have to do what they are told by the CCP for spying or whatever else. "Non-democratic" can sound a bit abstract, but...

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