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Comment by katzgrau | Hacker News Reader

> The President shouldn't have authority to ban anything at all let alone an app available through privately operated app stores.

If it's a matter of national security, yes, he should. Whether it's ultimately seen as an abuse of power can be decided later in courts or via election.

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TikTok is not a national security problem, no more than Whatsapp or Telegram or Skype is a national security problem.

The last time I asked folks here to explain to me why they think its a national security problem, I got a list of arguments that were just a little bit less plausible then those for the existence of Santa Claus.

Just because Trump says something (while providing no proof) does not make it true.

A straight forward argument that comes to my mind is TikTok being used in the manner Cambridge Analytica used Facebook. Except in this case, it is being done by a State sponsored entity with vast resources (monetarily and people-wise). Further, instead of it being used to help a candidate become elected, it's purpose would be to influence foreign opinions of China/the PRC.

That doesn't sound implausible to me.

My wife is on TikTok for at least an hour a night if not more - I've never once seen or heard anything pro-china or anything that would otherwise influence her opinion about China. Not once. It's all content from US social media whores.

You are focused on outputs what about inputs?

What inputs? You mean the fact that she follows cute dog videos? I'm sure China is going to use that against her somehow /s

Yes her data, meta data about your network, devices etc. Just because you arent a target based on that data, doesnt mean someone isnt.

Her "data" is mostly liking cute dog videos. China can have that data for all I care. Meta data about my network, devices? If China really wants to know that I'm on Spectrum internet, and have a few other devices connected, sure, go ahead. I monitor my network and haven't seen any suspicious traffic that would worry me.

They dont want your data, but your data being worthless isnt an argument. You arent the target.

Content doesn’t need to be overtly “pro China” to influence individuals towards goals ultimately desirable by the PRC. Information operations can have a variety of goals are a designed to be unnoticeable, unless otherwise intended to be visible (e.g., making it apparent to GRU cyber actors that we had access to their systems during the mid-term elections).

Edit: Here’s a link to the mid-terms operation by US Cyber Com: https://sofrep.com/news/cyber-warfare-us-cyber-command-strik...

Other countries shold summarily ban Twitter and Facebook, out of fear of possible local elections influence by US government

I don’t think the point I made disagrees with what you’re suggesting. The US can absolutely use social media for information operations as well.

They should, actually.

If foreign speech is a threat to a free country's national security, then I think that the free speech experiment has ran its course, and its time to pack it up. /snark

Just imagine what would happen if the foreigners say the wrong things at us. How is our freedom so brittle that it cannot handle speech?

This whole avenue of argument sounds an awful lot like one that authoritarian regimes use to block Google, Facebook, the NYT, etc.

I think you are missing the point. There are many many goals that support the PRC’s strategic goals/interests other than persuading people to be pro-China. If you ever get a chance, look up some of the publicly available US military doctrine on information operations and what the possible uses of it are.

Here’s one to start with: https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Doctrine/pubs/jp3_1...

Grindr was a national security problem . The precedent is there.

That's a problem for people with security clearance. For the other 99% of Americans, how is it a national security issue?

Compromising the people with nuclear codes is a security problem for the rest of us.

I am just saying such apps having Chinese ownership being considered national security has a precedent

> TikTok is not a national security problem, no more than Whatsapp or Telegram or Skype is a national security problem.

Yes, TikTok is potentially a national security problem. Sending a lot of citizens' personal info to an opposing super power is a national security problem. This is especially true when we are in disputes on many fronts like Taiwan, Hong Kong, islands in South China Sea

Telegram, maybe, but the founder makes it clear that he escaped from Russia, and Russia wants to imprison him(?).

Whatsapp and Skype are US companies, so they send info to US. There's not much security risk here. Their founders are US citizen or in a country that is aligned with US.

> Just because Trump says something (while providing no proof) does not make it true.

There's never proof in any geopolitical issue/scandal. At best, you have expert hearsay. Maybe CIA's opinion from wikileaks.

If we had to wait for proof for any geopolitical issue, US would probably already collapse for being incompetent long ago.

Now are you trying to say TikTok will never ever send personal info to Chinese government (if China requests)? I hope you're not. We know this isn't true.

Saying US and China having no tension against each other is just very strange; The tension is blatantly obvious for decades. I'm not sure if you aren't truly aware or you just pretend you don't know.

I said if it's a matter of national security.

> TikTok is not a national security problem, no more than Whatsapp or Telegram or Skype is a national security problem.

Yeah, you don't actually know that. What we don't know is the most consequential for us. China is ambitious and is clearly engaged in a long game against the US.

We should watch our backs, no apologies necessary.

From an outsider view, all I see in this thread is the US constantly attacking china and accusing it of what they are doing to them.

#2 always wants to be #1, #1 wants to stay #1. This has played out many, many times throughout history. Pick your loyalty.

So you are giving uo on the whole concept of a justice system, evidence of wrongdoing and public hearing?

Might as well start putting random chinese people in jail just to hit back at CCP, "no apollogies neccesary"

My original post referred to national security coming first — and evaluating any actions taken via court, if it's questionable.

That's pretty naive, in my opinion. TikTok has access to your microphone, even on an iOS device where it's far more limited than Android, which means that the Chinese government has access to ultrasonics. This means that China can create maps of infrastructure for hardware devices (Cisco IP cameras, for example) and create aggregated profiles of things like what products people shop for, what TV shows they watch, and even what commercials they've seen. Yes, Whatsapp and Telegram potentially have the same access to that information. The difference is that they are not owned by a state agency and especially not of a country that has shown, time and again, that they do not have to play by shared rules.

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