My Custom Payment Implant | Hacker News Reader

My Custom Payment Implant

forum.dangerousthings.com

98 pointsc0inster50 comments

This is such a bad idea it's beyond words. Why would you implant something that will 100% be outdated within the span of a few years and and can be done just as easily with a watch, a phone or a plastic card, things you very, very likely carry on you anyway. Even if you don't have a wallet because your minimalistic or whatever and you don't have a watch because you have a phone that shows the time YOU STILL HAVE A FREAKING PHONE FOR THAT.

Don't take this the wrong way i had a magnet implanted in my finger for a while so i am not against body mods but this is just plain stupid.

It's "dangerous things"

I think it pays (money) to post about doing stuff that would make people like it and cringe at the same time.

(I wonder how much simone gertz made from her Truckla videos, which included sawzalling into a brand new model 3?)

There's a real difference between chopping a car in half and injecting stuff into your body.

There's also a similarity, which is that they are both publicity stunts that draw their attention-getting power from "cringe" reactions in people who hear of them.

I went to something called a bio hacking village at a conference called "DefCon" a few years ago. I thought it sounded pretty neat but the thrust of whole thing seemed to be implanting various things like this, from key fobs to RFID tags to payment cards. Seemed pretty out there to me under the same argument you're making. The general feel seemed to be that the implants wouldn't go obsolete but I want so sure. Left me very skeptical of bio hacking. This was a relative large conference too, so I don't attribute it to just being a small fringe conference.

You can use the exact same argument for carrying a small magnet in your pocket. The satire might be going over my head though.

The argument that magnetism will inevitably shut down its attraction and repulsion services within a few years, rendering your implant useless?

The implanted magnets actually do tend to lose their magnetism over a few years, or at least I've read multiple accounts indicating so, eg https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/21/15999544/biohacking-finge...

No Satire here. The thing about the magnet in the finger is that you can not only feel metals or other magnets but with it beeing implanted near a very sensitive nerves you can feel alternating magnetic fields, for example transformers, electric powerlines etc. Thats something a magnet in my pocket cannot do. That beeing said, my magnet got rejected pretty fast and i chose not to reimplant it after that since i also had problems typing with it.

My argument for a magnet, even though it might lose magnetic power over time, compared to an RFID Chip is that the magnet implanted gives you a new sense that you cannot get without implanting it. Compared to a rfid for paying which can be replaced by a phone/watch/card without losing functionality and magnets aren't going to become obsolete by the whimps of a bank or cc provider.

>with it beeing implanted near a very sensitive nerves you can feel alternating magnetic fields, for example transformers, electric powerlines etc.

That sounds like the worst experience ever, it would be like giving yourself touch tinnitus.

Oh no it's super harmless. You can only feel it close to a source like when you feel your hand along a wall with an embedded wire running main AC. The only time I was genuinely surprised by it was when i walk past a motor in a train that was starting up but even then it wasn't annoying.

I prototyped a glove with hall effect sensors and vibration motors to allow sensing magnetic flux without needing to implant a magnet in your finger.

Also because you might be broadcasting some kind of ID all the time.

If you didn't make it to the very end, he finds out from his bank right after the implant that the PayTag will no longer be supported in 3 years! What an unfortunate turn of events!

This is quite expected. If the subdermal installation was so quick, so should be the removal, too.

What is really sad that the card (and so the implant) can be compromised any moment because CC data sometimes get stolen, and banks cancel and replace a card even on mere suspicion that it could have happened. So it could as well be arbitrarily shorter than 3 years.

I understand the cool factor, but, to my mind, it's not not great from the systems-building angle. Usually you want more modularity and easier modification or replacement of any part, not more of a monolith.

Looks like this was some sort of proxy card, which is just associated with the actual card, so it shouldn’t need to be physically changed if the parent card is compromised.

A company run by the same guy as Dangerous Things is Vivokey, who are hoping to have (among other things) payment capabilities supported by Visa/Mastercard on on upcoming implant, the Apex. That should allow them to be updated with new details so they won't expire permanently: https://www.vivokey.com/apex

I have a beta version that can do crypto operations such as PGP decrypting/signing and generating OTP entirely on the implant.

Taking a look, it looks like they want to be an identity provider as well as hocking implants. tbh it's kinda weirding me out. Does the more complicated stuff like bank payment require a vivokey identity?

I appreciate the coolness factor, but from a practical perspective I think it would make more sense to go with something that's wearable but more easy to replace, such as a ring or even a piercing.

Piercing seems like a really bad idea unless you can guarantee that no malicious actor will find out about it. Those things hurt when they're ripped out.

I think it wouldn't be that hard to cut open a hand either...

The risk of that happening would seem to be equal to or less than the risk of you getting robbed of your credit card, which also carries a risk of physical damage. Normal high-value piercings such as expensive earrings carry a greater risk of theft as they are much easier to covert to money. A wireless payment device requires a second factor for large withdrawals and can easily be blocked.

Yeah, I think you're right.

Wait until you hear about diamond piercings!

Well, now that I've heard about them, I can't say I'm interested, lol.

Cool! How do you confirm the chip isn't going to have any weird reaction under the skin later? And there's minimal risk implanting it in the first place will cause damage?

From what I remember, this is handled in the "conversion" process mentioned. Part of that is coating the entire implant in medical grade silicone.

> My bank contacted me to tell me that the PayTag will no longer be supported in 3 years time, So this is obviously disappointing

I definitely think this is a cool concept, but how do you get passed the planned obsolescence of these implants?

To be fair in terms of the cyberpunk future this is one of the problems built into the setting in fiction. Upgrades, firmware versions and planned obsolescence.

This custom job is for the true early adopters, who accept that eventuality. There are implants that already have the capability to be updated with new payment details, but it requires the cooperation of the payment card industry to initially provision them under their supervision.

Ah the old mark of the beast. No just no, this is a future I don't want to become part of.

you don't have to, there are better alternatives ;)

Read through most of this and I was thinking this is a pretty weird thing to get implanted. In which world would it be necessary to have a payment implant?

With Coronavirus, it’s clear contactless payments are becoming common place. But I’d venture to say we’re going to continue moving towards things like online ordering for almost everything imaginable and then picking it up which means rarely would I need to show/use my credit cards.

I'm sometimes thinking about an implant, but then I realize a ring or bracelet would work better.

A current concept I've been fiddling with is a personal assistant that's always on me.

Yes, a phone, but strapped to my back. Why? Because I can't leave it somewhere or change the volume or ignore it.

It's meant to nag me until I finish the task (verification/confirmation is difficult though).

That's a smartwatch. Obviously you need an incentive to wear it continually; that could be exercise (step counting), health tracking (heart rate plus (as of a few months ago) pulse oximetry), etc.

Also you can get contactless payment, and it can even tell the time.

After a few months you get used to wearing a watch continually again.

That's an option, but I hate watches. Always have for some reason, even when it was the only portable accessory I had it in my pocket.

That looks fun. But in practice, from your video it seems you need to keep the implant extremely close, and hold it near the chip reader for a few secs before it’s recognized and accepted. That’s a major downside. I use Apple Pay and swing my phone somewhere close near it and it’s done within a second.

An implanted payment chip seem to be an interesting idea. You could be stranded anywhere in the world with nothing but an underwear and still carrying enough money to get by (assuming the contactless payment protocol used by the implant is accepted everywhere). A wildly unlikely scenario for most people. A more likely scenario is it allows you to pay something when you forgot to bring your wallet and your phone and you have to make the payment now or never. Or maybe you could be in a beach with nothing but a swimsuit and want to buy an ice cream without grabbing your wallet in the locker.

Realistically, I will never do a minor surgical operation just for having an ability to pay without my phone or wallet. My intolerance of needle and pain far outweigh the benefits of having this implant :)

> You could be stranded anywhere in the world with nothing but an underwear

I am curious about the life choices of people who see planning for this type of situation a worthwhile investment of their time. :)

> A more likely scenario is it allows you to pay something when you forgot to bring your wallet and your phone and you have to make the payment now or never. Or maybe you could be in a beach with nothing but a swimsuit and want to buy an ice cream without grabbing your wallet in the locker.

My Apple Watch is an acceptable compromise when I go out on runs without my phone and wallet.

I can pay at most convenience stores, and even withdraw cash at a bank that has a contactless-supporting ATM.

Some day, this may be the ONLY accepted payment method in a future society.

I think it's a little crazy. The implanted material over several months your body may not accept it. This should be tested very well. And I don't see a big benefit, since you can pay with your cell phone.

We've been implanting electronics in people for a very long time, we have a good understanding of the process now.

"I buy, therefore I am"

Puts a whole new emphasis on the sum part of cogito ergo sum

Oh man, I was not able to make it through that needle video... I love the body-mod community, but I don't think I'm fit to serve in their ranks.

I kept thinking no, no, No NO NO Make It Stop!

How permanent is this implant? Can it be easily removed?

I’m not sure about removing an implant from the hand like in the article but I’ve had the similarly sized/shaped Implanon removed and replaced from my arm several times. It’s just a small incision, a pair of tweezers to pull it out, and a stitch or two to close it back up. The whole procedure takes less than 15 minutes. They could probably do it in five but I’m kind of squeamish so they go slow. They use local anesthetic so you can’t feel the incision but you can still feel the implant coming out and your skin being pulled which grosses me out big time.

Yes, they come in bio glass capsule and do not get attached to the soft tissues (unlike chips used in animals, as I’ve heard), so can be easily removed.

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