Cardiovascular MRI in Patients Recently Recovered from Covid-19
jamanetwork.com
jamanetwork.com
Normal flu can cause long term cardiovascular effects in some people and Swine flu even more so. Given the severity of the effects of Covid-19 on peoples lungs, serious long term seems likely.
The pattern here is denial, for which dismissing long term consequences is just a continuation.
Lockdowns only started four months ago.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PNgXIV...
Daily deaths have been very low in Sweden since July 11. No more 2 more weeks.
Sweden, a country of 10.1 million people, in which annual all-cause mortality is around 93,000, is currently reporting a total of 5,743 "COVID-19 deaths" (using a very broad counting standard whereby anyone who dies within 30 days of a COVID-19 diagnosis is counted as a "COVID-19 death," irrespective of the actual cause of death). Of those 5,743 "COVID-19 deaths":
Almost 90% (89.1%) were over the age of 70 Over two-thirds (67.6%) were over the age of 80 Only 71 deaths (1.2%) were under the age of 50 Only 1 death was under the age of 20 [1]
In the US, around 80.3% of deaths have been individuals aged 65 or older whereas in Sweden, around 89.1% of deaths have been individuals aged 70 or older. [1]
In the US, only around 2.64% of deaths have been individuals under age 45 whereas in Sweden only around 1.26% of deaths have been individuals under age 50. [3]
Sweden is currently reporting an overall death rate of 556 deaths / 1 M population which is higher than the current US figure of 433 deaths / 1 M population. But Sweden's population is older. Around 20% of Swedes are 65+ versus only around 15% for the US. The size of a country's 65+ population is a reasonable proxy for the size of its vulnerable population in view of the fact that the vast majority of deaths have come from individuals 65 or older. If we calculate total deaths (any age) / 1M 65+ population for both countries, we get 2886 for the US vs. 2780 for Sweden. Sweden's death rate / elderly population is actually lower than than that of the US, and the US should only be expected to fall further behind in this metric as time passes in view of the fact that Sweden is further along its curve than the US.
[1] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-corona...
[3] - https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-...
There are widespread reports indicating that surviving COVID-19 doesn’t mean you’re in the clear, regardless of your age. Yet a significant number of people continue to focus exclusively on death rate.
To reiterate the parent’s question: why are you, personally, focused exclusively on the death rate? Presumably, you’re young, and your risk of dying from COVID-19 is low. Why aren’t you more concerned about non-fatal but irreversible damage to your body, since that’s a more likely outcome for you? This is a perspective that people like the parent and myself genuinely don’t understand. What is your thought process?
More generally, chronic and potentially permanent damage is a fact of life. If the long-term nonfatal consequences of the coronavirus don't pass the scale or severity of, say, carpal tunnel syndrome, I'm comfortable rounding that off as "not a big deal in the scheme of things".
I think you are imagining the most mild manifestations that could be categorized as those things. Those terms could cover a range from trivial to debilitating/life destroying.
It's like when you read that someone isn't or no longer is in "critical condition". It sounds good, it's antiseptic, but it could conceal unimaginable horror.
How many years of shutdown can we handle?
Nearly every person I know is beyond stressed out. I’ve seen work people break down on calls. Remote just isn’t for everyone.
There is a period where you allow time for doctors to figure out best treatment. Maybe we’ll get a vaccine.
How many people are going start dying from sitting and watching tv all day.
Rona is the #3 cause of death in the US right now.
I question how much of quarantine angst is actually real. In most states it's barely a thing... You stand in line at the grocery store and eat outside at restaurants. That's not a substantive difference. The only real thing is that people haven't been going into an office, which honestly... Harden up, or at least find coping mechanisms that can handle the slightest disruption.
Imo quarantine is exposing a lot of social rot and forcing confrontations with chronic unhealthy behaviors. Work should not be a crutch for your social life, and you should be able to handle being with your children.
Since antibiotics became a thing, it seems like it has mostly fallen out of fashion to associate long-term, permanent issues with a one-time infection. It used to be normal to think of infection in terms of permanent impairment.
Scarlet fever could do permanent heart damage. Polio could leave you unable to walk again.
But antibiotics and vaccines have helped create a mindset that if it's serious, you see a doctor, you get good drugs and it's a short-term issue, not something that will maim you for life. The world used to more routinely think in terms of a single infection maiming you for life.
Covid-19 possibly marks the end of an era in that regard. With antibiotic resistant infections on the rise and what not, we may see a return to those mental models of infection.
It's because most people who claim this know that they're being disingenuous. Minimization is a common manipulation technique.
Not everybody wants to join a hand-wringing pity party for no valid reason.
however, it is quite documented by now that any kind of heavy, long term inflammatory response trigger cascading effects on health, including atherosclerosis
what it's missing from the discussion is whether these findings from covid patients are within the standard expected outcome of a heavy inflammatory response or something new and specific to covid response
No, you're being reasonable in your assessment. It's an entirely common reason for why it happens. People rationalize away things that make them feel uncomfortable, scared, or things they simply don't want to deal with (if they confront it, it forces a change in their life, or a difficult choice and similar).
There's a finite load that people can handle at one time, whether that's trying to quit smoking or dealing with problems with their children or work, etc.
Ignorance plays an important role, no question, however it's related to the unwillingness to confront an issue first and foremost. An unwillingness to confront a thing (eg ignorance about SARS-CoV-2) is a consequence rather than cause; that unwillingness is often caused by the existing mental tax, life stress, the person is under (and all people have varying capacities for absorbing that, some people can't absorb much). This is another reason why childhood education is so critical, it can be very difficult to find the time to properly educate yourself later in life, as life's burdens attempt to swallow you; and your brain is more often going to spongehappy (knowledge nom nom nom), versus a more resistent adult brain that recognizes the effort and untangling required in dealing with/reconciling internal knowledge conflicts once incorrect information is in place. Teaching children how to think is hugely important, versus the person attempting to remake their brain processes later in life (such as during a global pandemic, as they're losing their job), when it's guaranteed to be a huge struggle with existing cruft/debt.
From the beginning, a bunch of people decided what the effect of Covid-19 should be and they simply kept pushing for it. It was never well thought, they just kept saying stuff as long as they could get away with it. It was only the flu, It was under control, it was already spread out and the test were detecting only the few and all this will be over in May so on and so on. There was even an Oxford study produced and used to support these claims[0].
These propaganda wars are taking victims now.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22697163
Just dive into the online activity history of the people who spread these things, it's a fascinating world of pushing for edge cases that never materialise but they keep pushing it anyway.
Populism / neo-liberalism in general don't arrive easily at "unknown unknowns".
Serious, long term health problems are a pretty normal part of the human condition. Serious long term damage is not actually an automatic call for action upending everyone's lifestyle. There needs to be a more precise explanation of what the problem is for it to be meaningful. Background risk for disease is already very high; as you point out normal flu is already threatening and most people basically ignore it.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_herpes_simplex
"Oh, okay, lots of people have herpes and herpes infections have unanticipated consequences. I guess COVID-19 is no big deal."
If people are going to argue it is a big deal, they need to articulate their concerns more precisely.
Look at what's happening in Florida, Texas, Arizona with COVID-19.
Sure, for routine care because people are avoid healthcare environments because of the risk of COVID-19. At the same time, the same systems are unable to deal with critical needs because ICU beds and other related critical resources that COVID-19 puts a high demand on are exhausted in some localities and nearly exhausted statewide in the worst hit areas.
Colleagues at wife's work (TX) believe it is a democratic hoax.
https://twitter.com/leticiakawano/status/1279960010504749061...
This is unexpected. A chronic inflammatory disease seems to persist well beyond recovery from SARS-CoV-2 infection.
A total of 78 patients who recovered from COVID-19 infection (78%) had cardiovascular involvement ... The most prevalent abnormality was myocardial inflammation ... detected in 60 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (60%), followed by regional scar and pericardial enhancement.
If anyone can else can give us a better breakdown that is succinct and doesn't require a medical degree to follow the jargon, please do. (I have had a class in medical terminology and I read medical records for five years as part of my job. But I was processing accident claims, not sickness claims, so I almost never read medical records saying anything about the heart.)
If damage to people’s hearts proves long term or if even mild COVID cases predispose people to heart problems later on, the knock on effects for countries that chose to let the pandemic run rampant are going to be horrendous.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...
https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-l...
But even ignoring that, there is just no reason why COVID should be compared with the flu and not, say, Hepatitis A (B or C), Ebola, HPV. Route of infection (here: respiratory) correlates welll with the effectiveness of various countermeasures. Symptoms are still somewhat similar but less so, with COVID causing rare symptoms like anosmia but relatively little fever and almost no rhinitis. It's completely useless for pharmaceutical treatments as well as for predicting severity, which for respiratory (and every other class) ranges from benign to certain death.