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Comment by zaidf | Hacker News Reader

My pediatric surgeon dad who deals with kids everyday loves to chat with kids about their aspirations. In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. In contrast, when my dad practiced in India, majority of kids wanted to become doctors or engineers.

It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect. May be they both have a little bit to do with each other. But in Indian movies, for example, the doctor and engineer or businessman usually gets the hot chick--not the macho cop or firefighters.

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In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. . . . It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect.

I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. See here: http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16...? for more. Basically, if you have the chops to get a job in science, you're probably better off doing something else (like med school; lots of people want to be doctors).

Consider that firefighters or cops get paid reasonably well; effectively can't be fired after a short probationary period unless they do something incredibly egregious because they're protected by unions; have jobs that demand physical activity, so they aren't just sitting in front of a screen all day; and, in the case of firefighters, have a level of social prestige that means (male) firefighters are almost universally admired by women.

Wanting to be a cop or firefighter requires a two-year degree, if that. Wanting to be a pediatric surgeon takes a minimum of 12 (four for undergrad, four for med school, four for residency, although I think it's more than four). Wanting to be an engineer takes at least four.

> I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. Consider that firefighters or cops get paid reasonably well; effectively can't be fired after a short probationary period unless they do something incredibly egregious because they're protected by unions; have jobs that demand physical activity, so they aren't just sitting in front of a screen all day; and, in the case of firefighters, have a level of social prestige that means (male) firefighters are almost universally admired by women.

But do you think the "vast majority of kids" take that as their main reason? Do you think they know the labor market dynamics? That the job is incredibly secure? Not so mentally demanding? Requires only a two-year degree?

I think that kids in majority think mostly about the act of being a police officer, rather than the auxiliary benefits of being one (financial security being one). Perhaps they are drawn by the power, the apparent admiration, or some desire to "serve his/her country."

But do you think the "vast majority of kids" take that as their main reason?

No, but many adults take it as their main reason, which leads to more potential "role-models" becoming police officers/fire fighters, which leads to more kids wanting to be like these particular role models. Example: kid grows up admiring his uncle the fireman, who has nice things (always employed) and makes a difference in his community. His uncle might have simply taken the job because of the benefits mentioned in the grandparent post.

Kids don't necessarily need to know the labor benefits of a job, but (I think) they know the types of people that take these jobs, and want to be like them. Of course, it doesn't mean that they'll actually become firemen, but we're talking about the "what do you want to be when you grow up" question, not necessarily what they end up doing.

> apparent admiration

This. Kids don't know what power is. Desire to serve the country is not going to play a role here either. It's the cultural programming targeting kids: "oh, cool, look, a firetruck!" Same with sports. It's somewhat ironic that many blue-collar jobs are probably more glorified in the mainland U.S. than they are in former Soviet countries. Though this illusion disappears as soon as you realize that jobs where the majority of the workforce are immigrants immediately lose the "cool" status.

It may depend on the area, but becoming a firefighter is unbelievably difficult these days. The competition is very intense.

My brother spent close to ten years applying to every firefighting job he could find. He has a four-year degree, a diploma from fire-fighting school, years of experience as a private firefighter on a military base and as an EMT, and he's a competitive bodybuilder. He finally gave up this year and went back to school to get his teaching certificate.

Very, very true. A friend of mine is considering the military, largely so he gets more experience and a better shot at a firefighting job.

> I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs.

Hmmm... I'm making 6 figures as an engineer. I really doubt my brother the heavy equipment operator can say the same.

I don't know about heavy equipment operators, but I know a welder without any sort of college education who easily clears 6 figures a year. If you know how to weld under water you can apparently make even more.

Scientist != engineer; the parent to whom your replying is just talking about scientists as is the mostly good essay he links to (the author is quite wrong about this state of affairs "just happening", but maybe he wasn't looking at the situation in the '80s when the NSF (most particularly) started the big campaign for cheap scientific labor).

About a year ago I was in a coffee shop and a firefighter walked in to the room. He had the firefighter pants on, with the suspenders down, and a back fitted t-shirt with his unit's logo on the left breast. He was pretty built, well over six feet tall, extremely handsome, soot on his face, and an absolute air of confidence.

As he walked through the room, the energy shifted in a way I have never felt in my 30 years of life. Everyone stopped and stared at him. Gay women. Straight men. Everyone. It was electric.

I've seen extremely attractive women have a similar effect on a room, but to a much lesser extent. Super attractive women often create in a room a mixture of intimidation and resentment along with the admiration and captivation. The firefighter gave this air of "it's OK, I am here to protect" along with his "look at me I am pure beauty". It was wild.

He kept walking up to the counter and I left and went about my day. But I will never forget the feeling. I had no idea a man could do that.

So, firefighters. I understand why kids want to be one.

This may be regional - in the midwest, "doctor's wife" and, hence, "doctor", are still very prestigious.

(Perhaps you can tell that it isn't my favorite region of the country)

I also suspect that corruption in India plays a role - if policemen are constantly hassling people you know and extorting bribes it may change your outlook on that particular profession. I don't think the respect we have for law enforcement in this country is unwarranted.

I also suspect that corruption in India plays a role - if policemen are constantly hassling people you know...

This also probably explains the low respect the police get in certain communities in the US - cops harass black Americans a lot and get very low respect in the black community.

Add college kids to that as well.

Heh. Some thoughts on this: http://cogsciresearch.blogspot.com/2010/04/math-phobia-pedag...

Excellent read! Here's the author's own summary:

> To sum up, my point in this post was to posit an "internal" explanation, rooted in styles of pedagogy, for why the best and the brightest high school students in the US do not opt for technical majors/careers in college, while those in India do so overwhelmingly. My explanation for this was that, in the US, it is the authoritarian nature of science education, especially when compared with the "creative" way other disciplines (like history or literature) are taught, that is responsible for the math-phobia. On the other hand, in India, the cultural logic of the same authoritarian style of science education works out differently because students can discern a "method" in it, and they can discern no such method in the other disciplines, just a series of facts. Consequently, the best and the brightest high school students in India are less likely to suffer from math-phobia.

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