Grit Has a Negligible Effect on Success Compared to Intelligence
journals.sagepub.com
journals.sagepub.com
> The Short Grit Scale (Duckworth & Quinn, 2009) was used as a measure of grit and was administered to most of the NLSY participants in 2013 (6,476 of the original sample of 8,984 in 1997). It consists of 8 items in total, 4 items for each grit facet—perseverance and consistency of interest. Sample items are “I am diligent” (perseverance) and “new ideas and projects sometimes distract me from previous ones” (consistency of interest). Answers are given on a scale from 1 (very much like me) to 5 (not like me at all).
This is like measuring intelligence by asking people whether they identify with statements like "I am a fast learner." Most people aren't very self-aware. I often find that people that work less hard (in general across a wide range of things) often self-identify as having more grit because people work hardest when they work on something they are motivated to do, but being able to work superficially in the absence of motivation for long periods of time makes people feel they have more grit.
My suspicion is that grit (in the sense that matters, not whatever the grit researchers have been pushing) is mostly indistinguishable from intelligence as it's typically measured. I'd be shocked if most intelligence tests don't already do a better job of determining grit (in terms of the level of perseverance you could expect from someone) than asking someone if they are diligent.
I don’t know about that. I’m pretty intelligent, but don’t have much grit at all.
1. Those R squared numbers in table 2 are quite low. The statistical analysis itself is painfully basic. I'm a statistician, and I've a bookshelf full of excellent books written by statisticians who publish in psychology, so they should have been able to find someone to beef up the analysis a bit. That said, psych publications is also notorious for bad data analysis. I'm an outsider to this field, but this feels like an omission.
2. The paper doesn't use any causal inference techniques despite making a clear causal claim in the title. They use simple linear regression, which is not a causal model unless causal assumptions are made explicit. In my book this is a grave sin, one avoids making causal assumptions that might be hard to defend, fits a model with linear correlation, then makes causal conclusions. To understand what I mean by causal model, read this (these techniques are well-known and if the authors' defense is that they don't know them, it reflects badly on them): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_causal_model
3. It is worth thinking about what the intelligence assessment, the AFQT test, actually quantifies. One critique of AFQT is that it is more of a measure of literacy than intelligence. Read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Services_Vocational_Apti.... Maybe the title should be "Having parents that make sure you can read by age five has a greater effect on success than grit."
4. The AFQT and other intelligence tests have a pesky problem of having averages that change in time. This suggests that much of what they measure is not innate, but learned.
5. Social psychology is plagued by a reproducibility crisis. I'm sorry to say, their papers, no matter how provocative the findings, have to be viewed with great skepticism. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/replication-crisis
6. The paper says social economic background has a significant effect, but about the same effect on pay as intelligence. That seems to conflict with a pile of research that says that social economic background is the strongest predictor of success. To say that IQ is just as important as your parents' wealth is pretty eyebrow-raising.
1. Her advisor told her to use a student's t-test for multivariate data.
2. When the P value insufficiently low to reject the null hypothesis, he walked her through p-hacking the data.
She was aware that the statistics were not strong, but they were horrendous.
After helping her to get at least a bit back on track I developped a strong skepticism to anything published without a rewiew of the stat methods. Which is almost everything one can read in the press.
Very challenging to evaluate without paying $40 to read the paper. They mention a difference in how they group the subjects (by intelligence). My gut take (often wrong!) is that they're grouping the subjects in some way that pushes part of my understanding of grit into intelligence.
I think it’s very likely environmental factors and personal mindset have considerable impacts both positive and negative on intelligence. I also suspect in the next decade or two research will come out on pharmaceuticals that show improved mental performance. There’s already the beginnings of this.
Perhaps for performance on a fixed kind of test or for certain kinds of raw calculation speed, it is true, but handling complexity and problem solving skills can continue to develop based on experience and exposure to concepts.
The belief that intelligence is fixed is a trap for the mind.
It's a morass I'm uninterested in getting into.
I agree your original comment used the conditional ‘if’ about the truth of fixed intelligence.
Such a proposition naturally invites examination of whether the conditions are in supported by evidence, which is all I am doing.
I am curious if you have a definition of intelligence that sheds light on your original argument.
I have no stake in what truth you believe.
However I think your argument is clearly incorrect.
As you suggest, I could be basing my conclusion on a different definition to the one you are using.
But if you won’t produce a clarifying definition, you can’t reasonably make claim to be operating under any principle of cooperation.
It makes perfect sense to say that one factor is more important than another if it has more effect on the outcome.
Intelligence is not fixed. It can certainly be decreased by long term stress and environmental toxins etc.
It can also be enabled or inhibited by situational factors such as access to information, available time, etc.
Working ‘harder’ is not well defined. Do you mean going faster at doing the same things, or spending more time working? If not, can you define it?
Working harder or faster on something that is systematically unproductive will only make ones situation worse.
Intelligence is the capacity to select valuable activities in which to invest one’s energy.
Therefore grit doesn’t matter at all in the absence of intelligence, or can even be a negative.
Pedantically speaking, a depressed person can easily have zero drive to do stuff and still be intelligent.
As I said in another comment, "fixed" intelligence implicitly means a fixed ceiling; assuming we all know of intoxication, dementia, etc. is something I think is required by HN standards of being reasonably charitable towards the people you are addressing, also known as the Cooperative Principle.[1]
Implying that I’m being uncharitable is the antithesis of the cooperative principle.
I’m being neither charitable nor uncharitable. I am merely disagreeing with your logic.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I disagree with the idea of a fixed ceiling on intelligence as a general concept.
If you mean performance on narrow tests then I agree there will be ceilings, but that is irrelevant to the general idea.
>The AFQT score in the NLSY is the sum of the standardized scores of four tests: arithmetic reasoning, paragraph comprehension, word knowledge, and mathematics knowledge, and is expressed as a percentile score out of the general population
To my non-expert perception this does seem like a test that benefits from studying and general schoolwork (ie: reading books).
They used the The Short Grit Scale to determine grit (http://www.sjdm.org/dmidi/files/Grit-8-item.pdf) which seems like it biases toward un-creativity and "OCD completionism."
"Intelligence" was measured by an individual's performance on the "Armed Forces Qualifying Test" (AFQT).
"Grit" is self-reported on the "Short Grit Scale" which asks participants to rate themselves from 1 to 5 on statements like "I am diligent."
"Success" was measured by level of education attained and hourly wage rate in 2015.
Control variables include: Gender, household income as a child and level of education by parents. Study participants were born in the early 1980's.
Top-level findings:
> Although in our representative sample of the American population grit does explain educational and job-market success over and beyond other predictor variables such as socioeconomic status, intelligence, and the Big Five personality characteristics, its absolute effects are rather minimal. In particular, its effects are negligible in comparison to the effect of intelligence. Finally, the effects of grit were also considerably weaker than the effects of conscientiousness.
This is a pretty awful way to measure grit and makes me doubt the results
"Given the NLSY 2-item measure of conscientiousness and the 8-item measure of grit, this comparison is likely to overestimate the effect of grit relative to conscientiousness (Crede et al., 2012 for the consequences of using short measures of the Big Five personality traits)."
Plus, going from an 8-item test to a longer one isn't going to close a gap with IQ that large, and as they point out, the reliability is decent enough and pro-Grit authors have no trouble making claims based on, so what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander:
"The reliability of the scale in our data was .72, which is comparable to the reliability reported by Duckworth and Quinn (2009) and within the ranges reported in the meta-analysis of Crede et al. (2017)."
> a 10-item measure of the Big Five (or five-factor model) dimensions of personality: openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and emotional stability
This isn’t particularly shocking. There aren’t a lot of high paying jobs for dumb people and nepotism doesn’t scale enough to make up for that.
As an aside, there seems to be some sort of snowball effect that might confound a naive interpretation of the role of intelligence. For example, getting a high SAT score (and AP scores) is likelier to lead to Ivy admission. Ivy admission is likely to lead to above average training, as well as more influential social networks. This can lead to interviews with above average firms... etc. You get the picture.
Now, intelligence played a role in the high test scores and admission to an elite undergrad, and still plays a role throughout the journey of a successful (whatever the definition) individual. However, there are many feeback loops and amplifying/compounding first and second order effects as well. Quantifying the effect of grit, intelligence, etc seems very difficult.
>The measure of intelligence was taken from the 1999 wave, the measure of grit was taken from the 2013 wave, and the measures of suc- cess from the 2015 wave. Thus, intelligence was measured when the participants were aged 15–19, grit was measured when the participants were aged 29–34, and success was mea- sured when they were aged 31–36.
Jesus.
Also, if you define "merit based" as "capable of improvement through own effort" then both "professional network size and health" and "residential location" fall under that.
Compare that to India where if you are born into a low caste you can't do anything. Even if you are the most competent person that has ever walked the earth.
Not everyone in the US has the exact some opportunities but that is orthogonal to merit. To call it the US a low merit society seems completely bonkers to me.
>Compare that to India where if you are born into a low caste you can't do anything.
Black men born into the top quintile of family wealth are as likely as black men born in the bottom quintile to die in the bottom quintile. White men born in the top quintile are highly unlikely to drop even to the next lowest quintile. Americans criticizing India's caste system is laughable.
> Black men born into the top quintile of family wealth are as likely as black men born in the bottom quintile to die in the bottom quintile. White men born in the top quintile are highly unlikely to drop even to the next lowest quintile. Americans criticizing India's caste system is laughable.
First of all I'm not an American. It's quite funny that you criticize me for not using precise and absolute terms while you yourself use the same terms. Your point is even self-defeating. That a black family(which you indirectly compare to a low cast family in India, which I don't agree with. But that's beside the point.) can be in the top quintile already means that the situation in America is vastly better then in India.
>First of all I'm not an American.
I'd like to know what then qualifies you to make these statements. With this:
>That a black family(which you indirectly compare to a low cast family in India, which I don't agree with. But that's beside the point.) can be in the top quintile already means that the situation in America is vastly better then in India.
you're revealing a poor understanding of racial and social dynamics in America. Perhaps of India, too; there are Dalit millionaires, after all.
This conversation doesn't make sense for me to continue since you keep assuming things about me and claiming I said things I never said. I don't like such bad faith arguments.
In my personal, political opinion it seems that being good at convincing others and being greedy gets rewarded way too much over creating direct value.
edit: For example, standardized tests for advancement are a meritocracy even if the tests are divorced from the requirements of society.
No? There are tons of studies about childhood development that focus on intelligence being affected by their environment / upbringing.
But I wonder, - Do you want a brilliantly gifted surgeon or one who gets by on grit to operate on your loved one? - Do you want to listen to the effortless musician who seems to have some gift from god, or one that practices 6 hours a day even though they know they kinda suck?
> or one that practices 6 hours a day even though they know they kinda suck?
Again, we know that practice does not make perfect, but rather perfect practice makes perfect. Just because he practiced for six hours a day doesn't mean he practiced well.
grit == effort, not results, and not even effective effort, since that would take an inheritance to understand what is and what isn't effective. you dodged the question
1. Pretend that only effort exists
2. Assume beforehand that all your results are equal to <insert first-rate role model>'s results in <insert your desired field>
3. Only exit this make-believe world by looking at your actual results in order to measure the quality of your effort
Ow!
Between those 3 cohorts, I see a phenomenon that cuts across a wide slice of the population.
It might make sense that West Point students differ largely by grit, especially if all other variables are controlled for. That does not prove that the success of people generally is significantly affected by their grit.
But you'd get far different results in the general population.
As an easy example: if I independently studied kindergarteners, fifth graders, and twelfth graders, I will have might discover that age has no correlation with verbal proficiency. The problem is that by studying homogeneous groups separately, I've thrown away the possibility of studying the effects that may have induced the homogeneity.
The reproducibility crisis across the social sciences (and sometimes even in biology and medicine and - hot take - machine learning) is evidence that many of these models are both wrong AND useless for prediction, as opposed to just being incomplete.
Back to my original point, it’s misleading to claim that social psychology is not a science and should be ignored.
That's very different from the other items listed previously.
Partially true.
> and economics
Yes.
So what?
What are you even talking about? STEM is science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Yes, these are hard sciences.
Medicine and economics are soft sciences and yes, they suffer a lot more from a lack of reproducibility than STEM studies.
Like... Samurai’s and self-immolating monks are human.
Post-enlightenment, post-Kant, social sciences treat man as an individual unit “homo-economicus” — nothing could be further from the truth.
The way the phenomenon of gravity is tested: by deriving (predicting) consequences with auxiliary hypotheses(or theories), then do empirical tests and compare.
That's not the case in social sciences: they pick an explanation(explanans) that only explains what is already picked(explananda).
Just pick up some facts, say, X, Y and Z. And postulate A to explain X, Y and Z. Then do all mumbo jumbo: statistics, surveys, questionnaire. That's not what theories in physics do: they explain/predict something(not from the set X,Y,Z) that is NOT already there.
Larry Laudan in his philosophy of science makes a distinction between confirming instances and positive instances. Social scientists just pick up positive instances(X,Y,Z), Natural sciences are on the look out for confirming instances(instances that are not of the type X, Y and Z).
Take a crude example from our ordinary experience: all swans are white. Go and look out for a white swan. That's a positive instance, not a confirming instance.
What Separates Science from Non-Science? - https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2012/05/30/what_se...
That is, raising your "grit level" by 1 standard deviation will only increase your pay by 0.09 standard deviations, when compared to your age-matched peers. Somebody only one standard-deviation down on each of the other factors would have to be 6 standard-deviations higher on grittiness in order to get the same pay. That's the difference between the 0.1th percentile of grittiness and the 99.9th percentile.
The data shows that increasing your grit enough to compensate for even small levels of adversity is impractical.
Yes, because if you buy into that narrative, you're going to be a loser, guaranteed. If you don't, you might still be unsuccessful, but you will earn (self) respect. You gave it your best shot.
Nobody respects the person who never tries, who always makes excuses, who blames everyone and everything but themselves. It's bad for you.
Also, if you're lazy and smart, you're still going to be a loser. You'll still need some amount of grit.
Eating soup with a fork is still a success with enough intelligence.
Pfffft. Spoon-fed geniuses raised with only forks was a cruel joke.
Let me guess... For an encore, they'll do a study that says AI is more successful.
A suckers iterated ever minute on the Internet with a path/information like that.
A fork, spoon and a knife are required tools for most meaningful job/professional successes.
It may even mirror the mind, body and soul tools needed to achieve personal successes. 2 outta 3 sucks. 1 outta 3 is worse..