Zucchinis linked to rare poisonings in England | Hacker News Reader

Zucchinis linked to rare poisonings in England

foodsafetynews.com

88 pointslightlyused48 comments

I had the misfortune of eating one of these bitter Zucchini flowers. It was extremely bitter and I could not even swallow the single bite I took. But it was enough to make me sick for two days. I couldn't even drink plain water since it caused instant vomit and/or diarrhea. Those were some of the worst days I had ever been through.

The plant was from my own backyard, but it was stressed due to some insect / squirrel eating many leaves and buds. Possibly that triggered the plant to make the toxins that keep predators away.

Maybe you poisoned yourself trying to get rid of the bud eaters. Where you using a slugcide?

EDIT... nah, I'm reading about the compound and could be perfectly the plant. Today I learned that the Cucurbitaceae make some of the most bitter substances known among vegetables, wow.

This being England, the title should of course say “courgettes”. Nobody calls them zucchinis over here!

This actually being the internet, shouldn't the title use whatever is most commonly used in the world at large? Someone who knows the word courgette, probably knows the word zucchini. While someone who knows the word zucchini, might not know courgette. I certainly didn't know about courgette until just one minute ago.

And I didn't know what a zucchini was until this year

> Someone who knows the word courgette, probably knows the word zucchini. While someone who knows the word zucchini, might not know courgette.

I don't see why this would be the case.

More accurate would be:

Someone who knows the word courgette, might not know the word zucchini. And someone who knows the word zucchini, might not know courgette.

Or Cucurbita pepo pepo, the Intergalactic, planetary, planetary, term

All squash is native to Mesoamerica and Andes. Neither term is really correct. I believe the indigenous people of Mesoamerica called it chayotl. The Spanish, who were the first Europeans to come across squash call it calabaza - which is possibly derived from the persian word "kharbuz." But I really don't know why Americans use the Italian word for squash instead.

> derived from the persian word "kharbuz"

Interesting! I note the Turkish word "karpuz" (en: watermelon) is similar. And considering watermelons are loosely related to squash, that makes sense.

Today I learned about cucurbitacins.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbitacin

Bit half-bakery but it immediately made me wonder if these compounds could be what juvenile palates tend to find distasteful?

Yes. Lots of compounds that plants make for defense are bitter tasting.

(tasting bitter flavors is one of the ways we defend ourselves from the compounds)

Even more interesting is Naringin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naringin

This is a toxic flavonoid found in a variety of common fruits. It has been well known since the mid 80s when grapefruits became known for killing elderly people in nursing homes. Last year the FDA posted an advisory not to drink any fruit juice with powerful medications.

I remember this came up in conversation last year on HN when people were deeply offended when I pointed out that eating gold, an extreme heavy metal, is toxic especially with certain food combinations and then a week later reading about the FDA advisory on CNN.

"How to Use Edible Gold Leaf for Dishes That Are Fancy AF"

https://www.chowhound.com/food-news/194092/edible-gold-leaf-...

Under ideal conditions pure gold is not toxic because the human GI tract does not chemically react with pure gold. Pure gold become reactive to human GI tract under a variety of conditions from certain food/drug combinations that alter GI tract chemical sensitivity, certain microbial interference, and reactive impurities in the metal. Once gold becomes poisonous it is extremely toxic due to its density and persistence in the body where gold poisoning is similar to lead poisoning but substantial more severe.

There was even a HouseMD show episode where a woman was poisoning her husband with trace amounts of gold. The show is complete fiction but the chemistry is accurate.

Why take that risk? If you want to knowingly eat poison I recommend cyanide. It has a wonderfully sweet and nutty flavor profile and is incredibly cheap and common. The most common nutritive source is peach and apricot nuts. Furthermore, the human body requires trace amounts of cyanide for microbial interactions to form vitamin B12. Gold has no nutritional value.

Organic chemistry and neuroscience are complex. FWIW soursop has also been linked to causing Parkinson's like syndromes due to neuro toxicity.

Wow, for anyone else curious:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/...

> Fruits have high polyphenol content, and regular consumption is linked with beneficial properties such as anticancer, anti-leishmanial, and antidiabetic activities. Contradictorily, consumption of soursop fruit is correlated with the development of neurodegenerative disease (Parkinson disease), which is attributed to the presence of annonacin in the seeds.

But soursop seeds are not eaten?

FWIW, this French study concluded that there's no evidence to support a connection: http://www.anses.fr/sites/default/files/documents/NUT2008sa0...

It is known to subsistence farmers in Asia. Often times, they see cucumbers grown off of seeds that are not planted. They taste it for bitterness, then eat; otherwise, throw them out. This 'knowledge' is passed between, down, generations and people. Hobby farming doesn't have that.

I knew there was some scientific reason why I don't like zucchinis! I tried having this conversation with the parental units for years (40 years ago), but they'd never listen!

I just made zucchini fritters couple nights ago and I would bet most would like them. Shredded them with potatoes and squeezed most of the water out. Mixed with eggs, garbanzo bean flour and salt. Deep fried and served with yogurt as a dipping sauce. That was my first time making them, but it will be a regular addition to my summer menu.

Try making zucchini enchiladas. Grate the zucchini and mix it up with cheese and sauce. You can add protein if you want.

Well yeah, anything is yummy if it is deep fried.

This is the underlying theory of the vendors at the State Fair of ________.

Disagree! I cannot stand seafood and I think it's a genetic setting of some sort (similar to those cilantro people) and deep frying doesn't help at all :(

It's only ever been palatable twice in my life - as plain white fish at a chinese restaurant with a lot of soy sauce and other stuff. It's probably neutralising a chemical that triggers my warning systems.

Side tangent: is it all seafood that you dislike?

My girlfriend finds all forms of fish and seafood distasteful - fresh water fish, salt water fish, shellfish, the lot. In almost all instances she finds it nauseating, even the smell from a distance.

I've not previously encountered anyone with such a broad dislike for seafood. I'm curious what your experiences are.

Yes, but other freshwater things (crocodile, frog) aren't bad. Shellfish is easily the worst. Ferment seafood ala belachan or SE Asian fish sauce and it's basically the worst thing I've ever smelled.

My personal belief is that I am extremely sensitive to one of the chemicals that shows up as fish gets old. I smell it much better and earlier than most people so even "fresh" fish smells like it should be thrown out. On the plus side, I can tell you which shops have the freshest fish :) One near us had nearly no smell, so it must have been good.

One of the stories my wife remembers is when we asked at a Chinese restaurant about whether the stir fried green beans had any seafood (they often have rice-sized dried shrimp). We were told no. I smelled it coming when they were a few tables away from us still, but the others at the table couldn't smell a thing and had to look very closely to confirm.

Editing to add: I'm not unadventurous or anything of the sort - I even like durian! But people seem to constantly think I just need to get used to an unfamiliar flavour.

My wife has the opposite: she's a broad eater who likes seafood, but is allergic to cod.

No other pelagic white fish, just cod.

I generally do not like zucchini, but this zucchini soup [1] is terrific, and extraordinarily healthy (I sub yogurt for sour cream).

1: https://www.skinnytaste.com/cream-of-zucchini-soup-1-ww-poin...

Even Mars Bars

Stockholm syndrome

Zucchinis with this chemical taste bitter.

When cooking with zucchini always eat a piece (you can eat them raw) and if it's bitter don't use it.

Also happens with cucumbers. I've thrown away some salad I made and got ruined because of bitter cucumbers. Now I always taste them before they could ruin the salad.

Also happens to potatoes. Natural breeding can cause plants that produce too much glycoalkaloids.

Wasn't it the other way round - current varieties do not contain much solanine but are comparatively prone to mould and other plant pathogens? Defense against pathogens is why evolution developed these alkaloids in geological time.

The Lenape potato is a great example of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape_potato

It was basically perfect for potato chips due to its low moisture and sugar content, plus it was resistant to blight and easy to grow.

Shame about the glycoalkaloids, though.

This can also happen with pumpkins FYI. Once poisoned my friends accidentally (it was a proper eating pumpkin not a carving pumpkin). Just a mouthful or two was enough.

I feel like it's important to get these seeds and test if this is actually true.

No one has done any tests and no one has been quoted saying they tasted bitter.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8529641/Mother-38-r...

I assume that before issuing a recall and destroying all their stock, the company would go to great lengths to confirm that their plants were at fault, rather than say being grown in toxic soil or being left to go mouldy and full of ecoli before being eaten.

Their official statement is they don't know and it's also possible for the growing conditions to cause this.

These seeds are probably worth $300 to them. They will destroy them and move on.

I've seen no evidence it's even known to be the Zucchinis.

This is a science issue and more boringly a public health issue. Like you say, what if it is the soil for instance.

If I were running this seed company, I would personally be driving to this customers house to taste the fruit for myself and dig up the plant. I'd document it all with pictures and video.

While the seeds might only be worth $300, the reputational damage is huge, the lawsuits are big, and the chance of prison is very real. I'm totally wanting solid evidence to exonerate myself and my company if it exists.

If I do find the fruit to be extremely bitter, it's probably best to use language like "as a precaution" in my press releases anyway...

Does anyone know why sequencing is not used to QC such seeds before releasing them?

Expensive and hard to know what you're looking for?

I'm wondering whether that's indeed the case. It seems that at least some genotype has been identified to cause such a phenotype (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/346/6213/1084). If you know what to look for it would just be a couple of bucks to Sanger sequence it. (Then you don't even have to sequence it by e.g. Illumina, which would still be just a couple of hundred bucks per batch). I don't know what margins they get for these kind of products, but I guess a recall will be quite expensive as well.

I was taught that zucchinis and cucumbers should have their ends cut off and rubbed to make them less bitter. A quick search suggests that might be related to this, although opinions are inconclusive.

Are the harmful components from the seeds of parent plant or the newly grown plant?

So my neighbors are trying to kill me.

I knew those zucchini lovers were sketchy.

Yet chlorinated chicken is what we keep hearing all the moaning about coming our way. I'll pass on mad cow beef and now death zucchinis too. Maybe expanding transatlantic agricultural trade just doesn't make sense.

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