I'd like to better understand what career options other software engineers have explored.
If you are a former software engineer:
1. What are you doing now?
2. Why did you leave software engineering?
2a. Sick of pointless discussions about languages/frameworks/architectures, none of it matters to low-traffic/low-tech business.
2b. Sick of meetings/arguments to decide what to build. Making business and tech decisions simultaneously is amazingly efficient; e.g. no wasting time over-engineering for a requirement that may not even be important.
2c. Wanted to try and combine/balance my skill with my passion.
I think there are many reasonably low hanging fruit in the industry that can and should be solved.
The way that we are still needed to design a schema for things like a simple login system in a simple website, is a nasty smell that there are many reasonably low hanging fruit.
@zffr
Are you thinking of leaving the software industry?
2. I was in software for 20+ years. It was all I had ever wanted to do from the time I was 13. In hindsight, I’d say you have a phase of the moon in which to make your money and get out. It’s a brutal industry and you will likely face burn out at some point and you need to be prepared for that moment. I was in many different roles and responsibilities over that time, but the bottom line was I hit a point where none of it was fun, the clients were a pain in the ass, and it was just time to do something else that better fit my life.
If a young person came to me and asked for career advice, I’d be very direct about what to do and not do in a tech related field.
It's really hard right now to transition to something new while also seeking out a new employer. They see my years of a senior software engineer and probably bin my resume because they probably think my salary expectations are too high or I'm poorly suited to something closer to project management, despite having a lot of PM experience and listing it on my resume. It's just never been a job title.
Transitioning to something different, or more niche, is much much easier when done internally and the people there know you.
Is it programming you've grown to dislike or your employer? Also I don't have kids so I realize that a side project as a prescription is most likely untenable for people with families.
That's a good question. I honestly don't know. I've also tried to recently learn some machine learning/AI stuff and the motivation is just completely gone. It's impossible for me to open my IDE and not dread it. I feel like I have a mental block for learning and I just give so few shits about anything software related right now I can't focus long enough to pick up anything new.
Maybe I'm burnt out. Maybe if I take some time off then try to approach something new I will find some sort of joy in it. I think I am definitely struggling because I've done what I do (full stack web dev) for SO LONG. I've been making websites since I was 10 and I'm in my thirties now.
My employer is kind but boring. I don't have a personal relationship with anyone there and have been 100% remote from the start for my past couple jobs, which doesn't lend itself well to building relationships (for me, anyway).
I would love to transition to doing something more team oriented, more social, doing something cool with cool people. I'm in Seattle and have applied to a couple Bungie jobs, and I would absolutely love the chance to just help build some video games as a project manager, even if I was getting paid a third of what I am now.
Unfortunately the job market is horrendous, cool jobs are hyper competitive, and trying to transition to something new while also changing employers is super hard. It's all working against me.
When I got my current job I was throwing things at the wall trying to find something that could pass as a business. Ultimately I found what I'm working on but ran out of money and it wouldn't generate very much or anytime soon.
I got incredibly fortunate and found a job at a big company right before COVID. When I started working I was pretty burnt out myself and found it hard to code on either the side project or the work projects. But I was broke and in debt so I had to keep going. The drive came back to do better at work and on the side project.
Sounds like recharging might be in order for you. Idk what your financial situation is but as a dev taking a year off hopefully shouldn't be too much of a burden. It was for me and I lived off CC's. I still recommend it, especially if you're burnt out and considering leaving tech.
Maybe once the world reopens take a year off. Don't open your laptop lid for 6 months and pursue other passions and then reevaluate.
It’s mentally exhausting. You get into it thinking you’re gonna build cool shit, instead you jump through hoops for business school grads as they come up with shitty ideas and try to apply their shitty high pressure motivation tactics on you.
However, I haven't really started real estate business properly, and still have day job. Do you have any advice for software devs to transition to real estate?
One thing I'll note: people often disregard real estate as a "backup career". It takes a very broad skill set - everything from marketing to finance to construction and design skills, along with a whole lot of psychology, to do it right. The reason I point this out is that unless you are in a market that is just completely flush with opportunities, you really need to be committed to it and not just as a sideline if you want to understand what's happening in your market and how to compete successfully. In my own area I see a lot of part-timers who don't really understand market dynamics and they screw over a lot of their clients as a result and/or make poor investment choices.
Just like all the startup advice you've ever received: have a plan and just do it.
2. Startup I was working for was acquired by FAANG co. Able to retire from FAANG after four years of plumbing / ops / politics / meetings. There was awful latency at all levels, from dev environment to deployment. I found it extremely boring compared to startup life.
I would say don't judge software engineering by how it is practiced at the FAANG level (where you can seriously get away with just a handful of changes per half) and try to find a small scrappy team of smart high-energy folks.
Many people (myself included) are motivated by the impact their career can have. The impact of a great leader is exponentially larger than that of a direct contributor (based on the number people they can typically influence, and the amount of resources at their disposal to pursue “bigger” ideas). A great engineer who is also a great leader will garner more respect from their team, and will be more effective than a great leader who was not a great engineer.
I’m currently a Director of Engineering, and have a goal of becoming a CEO. This is something I never remotely considered, and even scoffed at early in my career.
The transition has been difficult and exciting. I considered myself to be an excellent engineer, so transitioning to a role where the new challenge is how to convince other brilliant (but possibly less honed) technical minds to do things has been extremely fulfilling. It forces me to think harder about my habits as an engineer and why they are important and how I can communicate that — it also forces me to have humility and admit that some of my habits may not have been as good as some things other folks are doing. It’s been extremely fulfilling, and I’m much more excited about my future than I was during the last few years I was a software engineer.
What were the critical skills that you made yourself learn for the transition?
In addition, I’ve been forced to continue to hone my technical skills, but more in the domain of “why” instead of “how”. I was able to be an effective engineer by mastering the “how” (which of course required some non-zero knowledge of “why”). However, the types of minds that exist in engineering (or at least the types I want on my team), are not satisfied with a boss telling them “how” to do something. The reasoning must be sound. Engineers want to see the work. If you can’t provide compelling arguments for why a new policy or decision exists, then you quickly lose credibility.
Maybe that will change in the future.
I don’t believe you have to reach this level across a wide domain, but you should be able to achieve it within some reasonably narrow technical scope. If you don’t, you will not be able to lead a technical team effectively. When you are in leadership, you may not always be on the hook for delivering, but you can win major support from your team if you are capable of diving in and doing something technically impressive from time to time. In addition, you will need to be able to teach engineers and guide technical implementation, which requires the ability to communicate clearly about deeply technical topics. I find that the less I know about a construct (think Law of Demeter, etc.) the less I’m able to communicate it to others or build solid arguments for or against it.
I think you must dig in and obsess about becoming great at engineering. My passion for this role is because of its meta nature. I love engineering and have built strong opinions about it over my career, and now I want to engineer a team of engineers who can see things similarly, and ultimately do greater things collectively. This wouldn’t be possible if I didn’t take the time to be a great engineer first.
1) I'm a professional cartographer, sort of. I make wooden topographic maps.
2) A bunch of reasons. I was never "supposed" to work in software -- I went to school in mechanical engineering, and wanted to get closer to something like that. My side biz was becoming viable, I wanted to do something entrepreneurial, and even though I had a pretty good gig, no company is perfect if you're there long enough.
I don't know if I'll go back to data or software some day. Things were great in the map business before the pandemic, they're ok now, and hopefully they'll be great again in the future. I still do a lot of data analysis and write a lot of software for my business, it's just interspersed with a lot more sweeping, sanding, etc.
I still love troubleshooting systems and doing hands on work that doesn’t involve writing code with other SWEs, so I’m considering what options I have.
I basically don’t want to be part of a code review or design discussion ever again.
Right now I'm working on getting back into IT (Network security).
I switch to the industry during the Obama administration, but after 2016 people were feeling a little too comfortable with their misogeny and racism.
To final straw was my direct supervisor becoming more radicalized into the far right. Not a comfortable feeling when they guy you report too leaves a 9mm with hollow points on top of his toolbox every day. The guy hadn't read a book except for the bible in 20 years, got all his news from Facebook and Fox.
How does one get into that? And is the money better or worse than software? I've been looking at switching to welding and machining for a while now, but the pay in my area isn't great.
The rest doesn't bother me. I even hear my local pastor is a racist now[0]!
I would strongly recommend against it though. The pay is terrible. There was a strong push for a few years to get people into the trades, and there was a strong misrepresentation of what the opportunities are really like.
Keep in mind that government contracts are a race to the bottom. The contracts go to the lowest bidder and since materials, etc. are a given, employee pay has really suffered. Being a machinist is not the path to a middle class life anymore for most people.
I briefly worked for a pipeline installation company ( oil,gas,etc), where welders were making fantastic money. So a few things on health: Welding electrode design has been improving,so welders get less toxic fumes than they used to a decade ago. People working in fields with pipelines often get joint problems because of extensive time spent in poor weather. Lots of awkward positions- which is harmful long term and etc. Also high end welding isn't something quick to get into: it does require a lot of experience and few people progress enough to become really good at it.
But, while work isn't a source of joy for me, it is a source of structure. I'm still trying to figure out if my life would be better without it.
Have you thought of switching to a low paying but more fulfilling job?
I'm not really sure what I'd find more fulfilling in the day-to-day of salaried employment. In an abstract sense, sure, I could build websites to help orphaned puppies find forever homes instead of to help people find mattresses or whatever. However, if overall impact is my objective, I'm better off keeping the highest-paying job I can (consistent with my values) and donating my salary to charity.
Where did you first meet each other?
The lack of energy may be due to a lack of a pushing force, such as a boss.
Currently doing something on that topic if you want to discuss more.
I operate the place as well as being the head baker, and the skills required are vastly different. There is some overlap with soft skills, managing others, attention to details, and so on.
2. Still involved in software, but I discovered years ago that I can’t accomplish much while I write the code myself. The bakery is a family endeavor, but I’m using it as a way to collect as much business experience and capital as possible to be able start my next big thing. But I must say, having time away from a screen is nice too.
I left because whether or not I was working my brain was. I get less actual time off now but I feel like my batteries get completely recharged. Plus I get paid to fly helicopters which is still unbelievable to me.
Did you find you were thinking more about technical problems or about problems related to management of people?
Helicopters seem like a blast, but the cost is on another level (and that's speaking as a fixed-wing pilot used to the crazy costs of GA generally).
2. It's not so much leaving Software Engineering, it's reframing it. Software Engineer when done well is about creative thinking and problem solving. If you feel that you are in a rut, try going to an organization that's not just about coding. If you are really not interested about Software Engineering as a discipline, I'd start by taking a break then reassessing.
1. Climbing mountains, hiking. 2. Have a goal to learn something new everyday.. thats how i measuring quality of the day.. zero learning = bad day 3. From time to time short term works to earn some money. Usually companies very surprised then i tell them that i prefer short term projects. Shorter = better
So far so good ;) (approx 10 years)
Good luck
2. Learned tested and implemented for fun few visuals from this link: https://datavizcatalogue.com/index.html
3. Learned and tested two diferent frameworks for the web scraping.. nice, interesting what will be our role at the time when one machine prepare information and another machine will consume it..
4. Found interesting analysis at: https://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east
5. Checked what are the main advantages of timescaledb and how can i benefit from it: https://www.timescale.com
6. Learned and tested how it works css data attributes https://css-tricks.com/a-complete-guide-to-data-attributes/?...
7. Read 20+ long and detailed wikipedia articles to find out definitions and origins of various terms and subjects
Read anothe hundred or more of posts and newspaper artivles, but i think it was wasting of time, because so many authors writing to get click but not tell something important/interesting.. subjective. I do agree.. problem is that i always hope that maybe at the end i will find some briliant mind or conclusion. so, im reading whole article.. need to change this bad habit..
Not bad week.. but always can be better..;) thing what im missing is - continuity.. but thats probably something what need to fix by myself..;)
...
This werk i also climbed 3 peaks with prominance grater than 1000 meters and elevation 2300-2700m... on commercial side i implemented two small automation improvements. Changes will benefit client company and at the end - myself..
Seriously.. few things becoming clear. Good brain extension or assistant MUST:
1. Record your minds silently.. without noticing him.. thats why basic tools like notepad, markup editors and etc.. usefull.. however best thing i would like to see is device which always listening me and keeping notes.. keeping notes.. constantly. Without disturbing me..
2. This smart device must be able to organize information somehow.. i don't want to mix omlete recipe with important new Angular version features. I don't mind how to organize. It can be hidden from my understanding. Like real human brain. as long as i can extract and reconstruct data, im fine.
3. Obvious next step is utilizing data when you need it.. but if it is well organized in 2nd step.. should not be a problem.. or not? Aaa.. forgot. Once required data piece is found it must be read loud..
So far.. NONE of the solutions i tryed are close to this targets.. there are plenty of complicated solutions.. there are plenty of greedy solutions.. there are plenty of usless solutions.. but none of them helped me to organize hudge amount of personal data we have.
Did i told that it must be open source (doesn't mean i dont want to pay for it) and strictly I MUST own data?.. so..telling.
Ok. If someone is expirienced with good human memory extension techiques or software PLEASE please.. it will so great
I do know people who have either done the FAANG thing, the investment bank thing, or beat the odds and won the startup lottery thing who have retired genuinely early because they weren't doing what they actually wanted to be doing--which could include traveling and kicking back.
But retiring 5-10 years earlier than the norm doesn't require much more than having had a string of reasonably well-paying jobs, being sensible with money, and being fortunate enough to avoid financial disasters.
We also live in a low cost of living area and have no kids. The house will be paid off and we'll have a bit over 3m saved by the time we're in our early 40s.
How do you figure? I always had in my mind that FU money was the amount you needed to quit immediately and be fine forever, which also sounds pretty much like FIRE. Granted, my mental model of FU money is not cash in the bank but passive cashflow which is probably coming from investments FIRE-style, which is maybe where the difference is.
If you have FU money you don't need to run the numbers.
That's how I look at it.
1. FIRE tend to mean sufficient money in the bank/money from passive incomes that let you live a fairly frugal lifestyle. See the Mr. Money Mustache stuff that various people are especially taken with. It doesn't tend to mean Retire Early and take expensive trips, buy nice cars, pursue expensive hobbies, buy second homes
2. FU money, on the other hand, tends to mean you don't need to work and can have enough money to do virtually anything you want to. There are degrees of course once you're talking things like private jet ownership.
Reason: "Reached FIRE"
It does add up
I took the chance to be CTO at a startup. However, one of the CEOs was quite a critical person who yelled at female workers, thus I decided to quit. Fortunately, I always kept a strong relationship to my former employer who wanted me to be their co-CEO.
Nowadays I do not really find time to write software. However, I still give directions and choose technology to use.
I’m still thinking, that currently I’m not where I want to be. So I find this discussion quite interesting.
2. Got FU money and was able to do nothing.
I had this big list of all the things I wanted to do when I stopped working, and in six months, I didn't even start doing one of them. My girlfriend said, "You're still on the computer all day, you might as well get paid for it".
I hate it when my girlfriend is right.
I took a year off a while back and pretty much did the same thing. If I ever take that much time off again, I'm going to go someplace that has no internet.
* Left SE job for a PhD in CS, roughly 50% of a good SE salary here in Northern Europe
* Do some Product Management/Innovation advisory on the side
I left SE because I found the type of programming one typically does, as well as the Jira ticket-pushing, uninspiring. I still write code, but (almost) only because I enjoy it (a PhD in CS does not necessarily involve much, or any, programming).
2. After close to thirty years, I'm tried of all of the administrative overhead and attempts to make me part of it. Every job for the past decade and a half has tried to push me into management despite my clear statements that I don't want to manage people. When I've refused, the responsibilities were still handed to me, just without the title I turned down. Simple tasks like getting a $20 coding tool approved could take months to go through the purchasing process and then through the approval process for the software itself. Buying it out of pocket at my last company was considered a major disciplinary offense. Weekly HR tasks for endless non-technical trainings, status reports and "check-ins" with managers and co-workers even though I have daily contact with my manager and co-workers. These reports weren't for consumption by anyone in my management chain of command but for HR who demanded to be part of the internal processes everywhere. It's administrative overhead gone mad and seems to be growing pretty much everywhere.
I never made FAANG type money but also am not a big spender so I have plenty of time, a couple of years, before I have to start making money again. I'm not necessarily against doing software development but can't go back to the corporate world. The way it operates is just too far removed from how I'd like to develop software. At least by quitting during a major unemployment event, should I ever need to return to the corporate world, the resume gap won't be a red flag.
By this I mean the ones were they have enough money to pay you well and a reasonable product/business with a high chance of success, but they're still small enough for you to have an impact in the organization (we were under a 100 people when I jumped in). Really smart people and a culture that fits my personal beliefs.
The first year was tricky, switching from the slowness of the large company to the constant change and challenges of the startup.
Once you get your bearing and feel that you're pulling your own weight is fantastic, been there for the past 8 years or so.
My point is, there may not be a need to change careers completely, maybe just find the right group of people to work with.
Things change. People change. Businesses change. Good situations become not so good, sometimes very quickly. If you're in a good situation, value it.
The point is that if you found it once, it's likely that you can find it again.
So far I've been on two such magical teams. Maybe there's a third one.
But I expect this job will end within 6 months anyway (if it was going well, the rest of the team would not have quit), so I'm going to be doing consulting when this is over. I'm working on the materials and workshops now, focusing on leadership and team dynamics, because I want to try to help other teams fix the problems that make software professionals miserable.
2. Boredom which became kind of existential. I had reached a new career high, and suddenly didn’t have anything to strive for - at the time, I didn’t have the insight to try and ask for more impactful work, and I really leaned out of my job instead. The dream of doing a bike tour kept getting bigger and bigger. I couldn’t get the bike tour out of my head, and decided it was the perfect time in my life to jump on it.
I left mostly because I became fascinated by security, while I was being asked to secure software. I realised I had no real idea how to do this, and the deeper I dug, the more interesting it seemed.
I was also becoming bored by the relentless cyclic churn in software development methodologies and frameworks, and how fashion led the whole thing seemed to be.
And there are tricks for dealing with cities, like parking on the edge and biking in. Or finding RV friendly lots using google maps satellite images.
Lately cities have far less to offer (no museums, galleries, restaurants, etc.) so it’s hike and bike and enjoy the beautiful country.
It's a the job title? I always considered Scrum Master more like an additional (sometimes rotating) responsibility of a team member, be it a dev or PM.
On the other hand, Scrum Coach is more like a job, or rather a contracting gig.
I saw them spend all their time to create reports no one consumed and do "illusion of activity" kind of stuff. They did retrospectives that never led to change, had to justify why development was behind schedule and find new and creative ways to make burn down charts look better than reality.
2. Everyone hates the recruiting industry so it's ripe for disruption with an actual technical recruiter.
To get you first paying client, is it as simple as finding a payment agreement online (something like "If the employee stays at company for 90 days company shall pay %x fee")? Did you start the agency while still working as a VP of Engineering and slowly switch over?
I'm early in the journey to find my first client!
It doesn't really matter I guess, just something I noticed.
https://www.ecolint.ch/sites/default/files/logo_eig_bleu.png
2. Wanted to try something different... last software engineer post was 2010. I became very interested in Evolutionary Computation, so I went for a sponsored PhD position.
These add a non-repayable, tax-free maintenance grant known as a 'stipend'. In 2018/19 this is worth a minimum of £14,777 and it can be used towards living costs. https://www.prospects.ac.uk/postgraduate-study/phd-study/phd-studentships2. I left because I got old. Twelve hours of concentration just isn't worth it any more.
After 2 years he’s happy to be back in air conditioning.
This is where I am now, more or less.