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Comment by lambdasquirrel | Hacker News Reader

Well as a POC, there's plenty of things I don't feel comfortable sharing. A lot is situational. It's really hard sharing anything that might make people realize they might not be as "progressive" as they think they are – regardless of where they are on the political spectrum.

Liberals are frequently unaware of their blind spots (but if you take care, they can be corrected). And then there's a swath of conservatives that don't think they're racist. If you should suggest it, it's too easy for them to dig themselves deeper into a hole.

All too frequently, I'll wish I stuck to non-political / comfortable topics – and remembered that political-correctness is there to protect me as an individual, so I can live in my bubble and get on with the day, even though PC-culture might be bad policy for society.

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> And then there's a swath of conservatives that don't think they're racist.

You are aware that the way you phrase it makes it sound like we all are?

I've recognized a few times that I say things in a way that makes people mad even though my original point was fine.

> makes it sound like we all are

Ding ding ding! Yes. We all are. Conservatives and liberals.

Everyone is programmed with racist attitudes from the culture-at-large. Many or most never question these unconscious attitudes.

In my experience, folks who have been actively working on racism and social justice for years if not decades are the first to admit that they too carry racist, largely unconscious, beliefs and attitudes.

A lot of people don't seem to grok unconscious bias.

"We all are. Conservatives and liberals."

Genuine question, does this include black people?

Yes, because racism is:

Racism, also called racialism, the belief that humans may be divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races”; that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural and behavioral features; and that some races are innately superior to others.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/racism

when you put it that way it almost sounds like a neutral and scientific term

Pretty fancy description. I was taught that racism was treating someone wrong because they didn't look like myself.

There's a couple of definitions. Formal academia and colloquial definitions have drifted apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_racism

Ding ding ding! Yes. We all are. Christians and Jews.

Everyone is born with original sin from being born from Adam and Eve. Many or most never question this concupiscence.

In my experience, folks who have been actively working on heresy and inquisitions for years if not decades are the first to admit that they too carry rebellious, largely hereditary, inclinations towards sin.

A lot of people don't seem to grok original sin.

I think he means

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype

Which, to be fair, is kinda congruent with original sin.

I don't think it is, but like you I'll leave the analysis to the reader

My analysis as a reader is that there might be something to it. On the one hand, the concept of original sin sounds deeply unfair, but then again, when you look at society, it's kinda hard to deny that most people really are drawn to all sorts of prejudice, selfishness, etc, and it takes real effort to recognise that, admit it, and work to improve. A lot of people feel like they don't need to do that because their arrogance tells them they're already doing everything right. I don't think that's ever the case.

> On the one hand, the concept of original sin sounds deeply unfair, but then again, when you look at society, it's kinda hard to deny that most people really are drawn to all sorts of prejudice, selfishness, etc, and it takes real effort to recognise that, admit it, and work to improve.

As a christian I feel this is a major thing: the realization that you can be perfectly innocent in that you:

- didn't do anything that any law can punish you for

- wasn't aware of doing anything wrong as you were doing it

yet you are far from perfect and when you minutes/days/years later you realize despite your best intentions you still bragged/discriminated/were unfair/went too far/didn't go far enough/etc and you'll be sorry and wish you could do better.

To keep this interesting to everyone in this audience I think I'll avoid going further into the topic unless anyone asks but for anyone particularly interested I'll say that I think this is what Paul grapples with in in Romans 7.

Feel free to expand. It's interesting to me, and I'm not sure anyone else is still reading this at this point.

Hi again, this is a really late answer, but I tried to look for a good explanation and I think this article covers a lot:

https://activechristianity.org/who-will-deliver-me-from-this...

I started by reading the top but it actually covers a lot of the topics in this thread from a christian perspective.

> Everyone is programmed with racist attitudes from the culture-at-large.

We can't blame it all on culture when even six month old babies exhibit racism: https://www.utoronto.ca/news/racial-bias-may-begin-babies-si...

You are suggesting that modern society is fighting human nature then. That's unwinnable, barring genetic modification. Also, the idea of an original sin is a very christian thing which makes the advocacy of that view ... religioist?

> You are suggesting that modern society is fighting human nature then. That's unwinnable, barring genetic modification.

Why? Modern society is built on things that go against human nature: The national state, living till we're 80, flying, not killing people, monogamy.

I think you are making the classical moral mistake of assuming the natural state of things is the best state of things.

Societies ban actions, not subconscious thoughts. People can fantasize about polygamy or rape or bestiality as long as they are not realized. Societies that suppress thoughts are called oppressive.

Being human is all about going against your instincts. We're not merely animals; we can learn and improve, we can think about consequences, we can better ourselves. This is what all of human history has been about. We might never reach a perfect end-state, but that doesn't mean that improvement is not a worthwhile endeavor.

I apologize if it made you feel that and it wasn't comfortable. But part of my consideration in saying that was... this is not politically correct to say (i.e. that it might sound like all conservatives are racist), and I don't know how else to say it, so, I'll say it.

But I do appreciate that you called it out.

I grapple with being racist all the time. The way I climbed up was through a lot of institutions that racist. I grapple with my complicated place in the world, when I talk to my shrink, and not infrequently, because there's a lot of non-PC / uncomfortable things about it all too. I can't get away from both sides of the racism, because of the genes I was born with, so I have to talk about it with someone. If people don't like the whole politically-correct thing, well, this is it too.

I've found the best way is just to accept the silly label if someone accuses you of "racism".

My approach is to try to understand in what way I might still be racist and improve myself.

That is a good attitude, in line with what others are talking about with "original sin".

My and I guess many others point in this thread is that a lot of people are running around alienating a lot of people who would be ashamed to even catch themselves thinking a racist thought by insisting they are "racist" since they might have implicit biases.

Supporting the racists because you think it's better for your wallet is still racist. Supporting policies that hurt POCs disproportionately is racist even if you don't understand why.

When someone points out something is racist, is your response to explain why it isn't or change?

People should not change just because you redefine being racist however you please.

Have I redefined it?

> And then there's a swath of conservatives that don't think they're racist

You do realize you are taking a gigantic group of people and classifying them all as having some property without knowing the person at all, sounds discriminatory.

And realize you used the word conservative, not Republican, so don't base it on policy decisions that people support as we all known Republicans do not represent conservative policies in most cases you are concerned about. These are two different things which are not inclusive or mutually exclusive.

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