Icelandair letting go its flight attendants and shifting their duties to pilots | Hacker News Reader

Icelandair letting go its flight attendants and shifting their duties to pilots

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This article is confused. The cockpit crew will not be handing out drinks. Other pilot-rated employees will be acting as attendants.

You can’t operate in the EU, US or Canada w/o someone attending in the back. You have to have so many attendants per passengers.

Pilots are well qualified for any cabin duties. Many US pilots who have lost their rating or are going through a health issue that keeps them out of the cockpit serve as attendants to keep their benefits or wait to be medically reinstated.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/coronav...

“From 20 July pilots who are currently not required for flying duties will be assigned “responsibility for safety on board”.”

>The cockpit crew will not be handing out drinks.

The mental image this gave me was amusing:

>"Hey man, can you steer for a few minutes? I've gotta go push the drink cart."

>"Sure thing dude, I'll get it next time."

Don't need two pilots. Just have one pilot slowly push the drink cart with one hand while the other hand pilots the plane with a game console controller plugged into a VR headset. Then the passengers can simply grab drinks as it rolls by. Multitasking!

No need for a VR set when you are already living in the simulation just reroute some plugs and you can do multitasking with remote viewing.

Why not add autopilot functionality to the drink cart?

So the cart can fly the plane while the pilot is attending passengers? Geniys!

I remember the first time I flew in the mid eighties. The plane was a twelve seater, the pilot asked for one of the passengers to sit up front and 'be' the copilot. When it came time to hand out the refreshments, he would get the copilot to pull drinks out of the eski, and pitch the plane up so they could roll the drinks down the aisle.

eski?

Cooler. Some folks refer to this as an Eskimo, a non PC term for the Inuit.

What makes "Eskimo" not politically correct?

It's a rather demeaning term and means "meat devourer" or "meat muncher" (loosely translated).

That doesn't seem to be accurate. First, Eskimos and Inuits are not necessarily referring to the same people, and Eskimo seems to come from Algonquian and means "snowshoe-netter" or "to net snowshoes", at least as far as I gather from some quick searching.

If you would’ve read the whole NPR article, you would’ve realized that the “snowshoe-netter” is relatively new theory and does not suddenly remove the racist connotations the word itself used to have.

>Edmonton to drop 'Eskimos' name

https://www.tsn.ca/edmonton-cfl-franchise-to-drop-eskimos-na...

FWIW, https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/24/4751295...

> But now there's a new theory. According to the Alaska Native Language Center at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, linguists believe the word Eskimo actually came from the French word esquimaux, meaning one who nets snowshoes. [. . .] But the correction to the etymological record came too late to rehabilitate the word Eskimo. [. . .] Many Native Alaskans still refer to themselves as Eskimos, in part because the word Inuit isn't part of the Yupik languages of Alaska and Siberia.

So it’s considered non-PC because for a while an incorrect etymology of “meat muncher” was used

>Reports: Edmonton CFL club will drop 'Eskimos' name

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/29482242/edmonton-cfl-c...

Not sure if I'm missing something, but the article never outlines what actually makes "Eskimo" offensive, just that sponsors think it is.

https://www.uaf.edu/anlc/resources/inuit_or_eskimo.php

> Although the name "Eskimo" was commonly used in Alaska to refer to Inuit and Yupik people of the world, this usage is now considered unacceptable by many or even most Alaska Natives, largely since it is a colonial name imposed by non-Indigenous people. Alaska Natives increasingly prefer to be known by the names they use in their own languages, such as Inupiaq or Yupik. "Inuit" is now the current term in Alaska and across the Arctic, and "Eskimo" is fading from use. The Inuit Circumpolar Council prefers the term "Inuit" but some other organizations use "Eskimo".

Esky - it's a brand of cooler. Or just a generic term for "eskimo cooler".

yuk, that sounds racist.

It makes me sad that we've sacrificed many genuinely human moments like this to modernity.

What do you mean? I remember the pre 9/11 days, and they were fun. I was a kid that would sit with the pilots on the jumbo jets and take pictures with them and the flight attendants, who would give me extra tomato juice. Didn't happen after 9/11 though.

When I was young (before 9/11, I was 12 or so) the pilot crew of my EasyJet flight from Amsterdam to Geneva invited me to the cockpit to see. I was flying with my grandma and it was my first flight ever. I love flying and the machines, being in the cockpit as a 12 year old boy was so staggering and inmense.

Then I didn't fly for years, and about a year ago (while being 24) I started traveling more. Suddenly while being delayed at Amsterdam airport the cockpit crew of my EasyJet flight to Split invited people to the cockpit if they wanted to see. I waited 2 minutes to see if any children would come up and then decided to relive my childhood memory and go to the cockpit.

Another time while on a KLM flight to Bangkok I gave the cabin crew a bag of chocolates as a thank you gift for the good service. I did the same thing when flying back from Bangkok to Amsterdam as a thank you to get me home during the pandemic (this was end of march). Both of the times they personally thanked me, the first time I even got one of the little houses they give away to business class passengers [0].

My point is, those human moments do exist. It is just that most people don't 'want' them anymore because that means that it should come from themselves. (No one was standing up to go to the cockpit, nor was anyone else giving candy to the cabin crew). I am sure something changed after 9/11, things like being in the cockpit while flying isn't an option anymore. But with what is going on these days, I can't complain about that.

I have to admit, maybe I am a bit biased. If it weren't for my small stutter in intense situations I would've probably been a pilot. :-)

[0] https://blog.klm.com/klm-delfts-blue-minitiature-houses-ever...

That was a beautiful image you painted. Thank you. I must seek them more earnestly now, being in the cockpit during the flight was so cool but I would still like to see it even not in flight.

Unrelated but when I started drinking kombucha my stutter went away. Try probiotics!

I assume most pilots will let you into the cockpit if you are delayed and while being on the ground. But I have to admit that the last time it happened was a complete surprise for me. I didn't know they were allowed to do that. But maybe they aren't or it is up to their own discretion? I guess, if you really want it you could ask the cabin crew if it is possible to check it out. I don't think a pilot would have anything against it personally because they are proud of their jobs too.

Haven't tried Kombucha and didn't know about it. I will look for it and try it out. Thanks! :)

9/11 was almost nineteen years ago now, so you'd have been much younger than twelve for your copiloting experience.

I wasn't asked to be co-pilot, but I flew on Cape Air which is a small airline based around, you guessed it, Cape Cod (well, mostly connecting small airports in MA, ME, NH, VT, etc to Boston Logan).

It was a 6 (maybe 8) seater and one of the seats is next to the pilot in the co-pilot seat, which I was lucky enough to get.

Landed in a snowstorm which was a bit nerve wracking as I got total spatial disorientation with the light reflecting off the snow passing the windshield.

i am trying to picture this in my head. the food cart is empty. we need to bring it back to the front for a refill. nosedive...

Five years ago, in between the Guyanas, also a 12 seater: My lighter gets confiscated by security, while all other passengers put their handguns and magazines into ziplock bags, which are thrown into a postbag, which ends up, open, next to the pilot, just in front of me. During take-off the pilot lights a cigarette for himself, passes me the lighter with the word "open the window, please".

Please let it be a gun shaped lighter.

"oh shoot I'm locked out of the cockpit! Magnus? MAGNUS!"

> This article is confused.

Not only the article...Ms.Premack must be. Otherwise I can't understand why she went to the FAA and wasn't even ashamed of it so she even put their answer in there.

I presume she wanted to check if the FAA has authority on this issue on IcelandAir’s US routes in particular. Which is a fairly reasonable question for a layman to ask.

This is already outdated. Just now the cabin-crew union and Icelandair signed a new contract.

I couldn't find an article in english but in another article they say that all layoffs will be reversed.

https://www.visir.is/g/20201992741d/flugfreyjur-og-icelandai...

Same news, but from the the state radio:

https://www.ruv.is/frett/2020/07/19/samningur-flugfreyja-og-...

EDIT: And here is the news (in english from the state radio) about the controversial decision from the privately run Icelandair to lay of all its flight attendants because of the labor dispute:

https://www.ruv.is/frett/2020/07/17/icelandair-lays-off-all-...

What kind of deal did they get? Did they meet in the middle, or did the airline force them to sign a terrible deal?

Doesn't look like the one they were hoping for:

The bargaining committee of Flugfreyjufélag Íslands and Icelandair have signed a new wage agreement. The new agreement is expected to be valid until September 30, 2025. It is based on an agreement that was recently rejected in a vote.

That’s a ballsy move that paid off for them. Want more money? Not gonna happen. Here’s your termination letter. Oh, now you want to negotiate? Ok let’s do it.

Hahaha. Gotta hand it to Icelandicair on this one.

"In May 2019, 419,000 passengers flew on Icelandair. In May 2020, just 3,100 hopped aboard."

I mean, yeah.

Stories like this one remind me how flying was diffrent when I was a kid in the 70-80's.

It was better, except for the cigarettes smoke which was supposed to miracously dissapea between rows 15 and 16.

And the price, it was way more expensive.

Beside that: light to no security, real food, a sense of excitement. A flight was something a kud remembered for a long time (I still do, after 40 years).

My teenage children, after 50 flights, treat this as an extended and cumbersome bus ride.

Flight safety concerns will likely nix this. But regardless, that's a bad way to end a labor dispute in these times. But with Wow Air bankrupt there isn't all that much competition to and from that airport. Over half of all destinations reachable from Iceland are flown by Icelandair.

Will they even be allowed to operate in EU like this?

https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/minimum-required-...

>when establishing the number of cabin crew needed for each aircraft and flight (...) by either applying the number established during the certification process or by a calculation of 1 cabin crew member per 50 installed passenger seats.

Having extra pilots act as cabin crew should be ok with the numbers as long as they don't drop the count. The concern is are they qualified to act as flight attendants? When I read the article, it doesn't say the pilot and co-pilot would be cabin crew, it was additional pilots filling in. If so few people fly, there should be enough pilots. Not saying they want to do this or legal, but it would be possible.

What a nightmare. Icelandair was a well-run airline that was a pleasure to fly.

That makes sense if there are almost no passengers in planes. And if they have too many idling pilots as many flights are not scheduled.

I would actually be surprised if that’s legal. Flight attendants perform some critical safety functions, they’re not glorified wait staff that can be replaced on a whim.

I don’t mean to be ignorant, but what are these critical safety functions? The closest thing to safety that I’ve seen is they give the speech at the beginning about oxygen masks and remind you to buckle up.

Given that the inflight safety demonstration is on video now, what’s the critical safety role?

My safety worry wouldn't be the lack of flight attendants per se, it would be distracted pilots. The pilots have enough to keep track of already. The last thing we need is having planes start crashing because a pilot was distracted dealing with a passenger.

You're misunderstanding the linked article. There will still be flight attendants, just now they'll be pilots. I.e. there will be two pilots solely in charge of flying the plane, and then additional pilots in the cabin doing the flight attendant duties.

The critical role is if something goes wrong to be able to help the passengers be safe. E.g. non-normal landings and medical emergencies.

Another less "critical" role, but still not something I want a pilot doing, is dealing with disgruntled passengers.

They also ensure that rules are followed and that people, e.g. in an exit row, understand what they need to do. If pilots couldn't begin preflight until passengers are seated and buckled it would take forever to depart.

Speaking of boarding, flight attendants also deal with seating and baggage issues. Again, it would delay departure.

Just what comes quickly to mind: Door in flight / in park. Helping put the oxygen masks on (if that's required, I'd assume that pilot/copilot is otherwise occupied). And of course getting people out during an evacuation.

First aid, detecting issues in the cabin, firefighting, checking the emergency exits and opening them or directing passengers elsewhere in case of an evacuation, ...

Dealing with passengers that have an sociopathic entitlement complex who get violent..

Literally flight attendants exist to help with the safety of passengers in any sort of abnormal situation. That they serve beverages is just kind of the thing they do when there's not a critical safety function.

An extreme example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neerja_Bhanot

Any time you have hundreds of members of the general public in a confined space, you're going to need a staff to manage whatever they throw at you, or to run an evacuation. Same reason theaters have ushers.

My wife is cabin crew at BA. The best example I can give of things they need to know is how to let a bomb explode and leave the aircraft going. There's a procedure on how to cover a found bomb with layers of chairs, wet blankets, etc. She also needs to know all the ways to extinguish a fire, depending on its source.

It’s usually 3–4 months of training to be a fully qualified flight attendant. Surely a pilot is already well-versed in 90% of that training material. A week or two training may be all that’s required.

And that's why the flight attendants aren't being replaced by untrained randos; they're being replaced by pilots, who have even more training than flight attendants do. And yes, that training includes how to evacuate passengers and other relevant procedures, because this is already something that pilots can and do get involved in in emergency situations.

Once the plane is down they have no further piloting needing doing and need to help with the evacuation. Witness Sully Sullenberger on the Hudson -- he was the last person out of the airplane, having already assisted all the passengers in evacuating and then gone back to perform a thorough sweep to ensure that no one else remained.

People Express used to do similar things

Who's going to sit with the pilot when the co-pilot goes to the bathroom (and who's going to block the isle with the cart while that happens?).

Seems like they're using COVID19 as an excuse to solve their labor dispute:

  Services "will continue to be at a minimum, as (they have been) since the impact of COVID-19 started," the airline said.

Pilots need to be aviating, navigating and communicating, not worrying about what's going on in the cabin!

There will be a pilot, co-pilot, and additional pilot-rated staff performing cabin safety duties.

> the airline said it planned to have its pilots temporarily assume flight attendants' roles

Excuse me captain can you top off my orange soda and fetch me a bag of peanuts?....this isn't what their pilots signed up for, expect a Icelandair pilot strike next

It will be pilots otherwise unemployed performing minimal cabin duties ('cause covid dictates minimal interaction) while collecting a pilot's salary.

This isn't a cost cutting measure but a stopgap due to failed negotiations between the airline and flight attendants.

we gonna hear these decisions again in a 2022 mayday episode

Is this an EFTA loophole?

> It's also not apparent if such a setup is legal in the regions in which Icelandair flies, including the US and the European Union.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com