On Trouser Pockets
sambleckley.com
sambleckley.com
It's an elegant solution to wear slim fitted pants without awful hip pocket bulges. Cargo pants are not the solution here, as they are huge and baggy and the pockets flop around with anything in them.
I'd love to try these.
Who says they're awful? Why do they say that?
We must be informed and skeptical consumers.
Why yes, yes we can.
But, OK, let's answer it. The first answer is right in the fine article: Hip pockets lead to bad posture when sitting. They cause back pain.
The second answer is that if you dress for aesthetic instead of functional reasons, one of the very first concerns is silhouette. And if you care about that, you often care about the torso first, lines second, limbs third. (Note: Since it's an aesthetic judgment, it depends on your preferences)
Hip pockets ruin the look of the torso and lines from any angle except a pure frontal view. Worse, they ruin it for tight and loose fitting clothes (because for loose fit, hip pockets with anything of significant weight hangs awkwardly)
This pocket design addresses the first issue completely, and the second issue somewhat. (You'll still notice a change in the line especially on tight fit, but it's less noticeable because it's not affecting torso, and it's not at the end of limbs - which get more attention than the middle)
Maybe our list of maximes to follow should include "we must assume that people have a reason for what they do, and question somebody else's aesthetical judgment followed by an accusation that they're uninformed or unquestioning is not the best conversational gambit".
See, I think you've missed what everyone in this thread is trying to get at. The defense of cargo pants is based on a pretty simple dialectic:
· Who determines what is fashionable or "aesthetic"?
Mostly, the people who design, sell, and advertise clothes. And also, people who directly profit off of being fashionable.
· What metrics do they use to decide what they're going to call fashionable?
Mostly, whatever will allow them to change styles from year to year and sell as many products as possible and maintain their position at the top of the fashion world.
· Is it in our interests to buy into this system of fashion?
No! In fact this dialectic has shown that fashion is basically bullshit, and that it's not just morally neutral but good to resist! To try to come up with our own fashions based on what appeals to us personally or simply wearing whatever has the most utility.
For the record, I don't necessarily agree with this argument (I lean towards fashion-neutral), but I think this pattern of thinking is extremely common in hacker culture. While I'm cynical about how fashion is created, I don't wear cargo pants either, but that's because I find them much less comfortable than a straight (not slim) cut pair of jeans.
Not really, no. "Aesthetic" is "concerned with beauty", not necessarily "beautiful". If you do care about beauty, you care about shape, texture, color.
> Who determines what is fashionable or "aesthetic"? These are two different things - the first one emerges as industry consensus, the second is your sense of beauty.
> What metrics do they use to decide what they're going to call fashionable?
Literally, I don't care. At all. The discussion wasn't about fashion. OP asked why people would consider hip pockets ugly. The answer was "people who prioritize beauty over function". There's no "they" who determine beauty. We have our own preferences.
My reply wasn't about fashion. It doesn't mention fashion with a single word. Neither does OP. And so I'm deeply amused to see that you think I didn't read closely enough.
Yes, which is why I'm suspicious of people who make dictates and maxims about fashion.
My point is that those maxims were created by people who have an obvious incentive to sell you more things, and having you supplement pants with carrying bags would benefit them.
We must also take unconscious racism and classism into account when judging the fashion dictates of others: "Big pockets make it look like you work for a living! We must therefore shun big pockets!" is not exactly value-neutral.
Also:
> Hip pockets lead to bad posture when sitting. They cause back pain.
Good thing we're not talking about hip pockets, but pockets farther down the leg.
> > Who says they're awful? Why do they say that?
> > We must be informed and skeptical consumers.
> Hip pockets lead to bad posture when sitting. They cause back pain.
Actually, we are talking about hip pockets.
No, we must not. The only thing fashion miss is ideological foundations, then it'd take just one more step for it to make following fashion mandatory for everyone with legal repercussions for not following fashion trends enough.
There are different reasons to dislike big pockets. Different people have different reasons. If some people have racist between their reasons to dislike baggy pants, it doesn't mean that to dislike baggy pants is equal to be a racist. If the most stupid person in the world believes that sky is blue, it doesn't mean, that sky is green.
Obviously the broad-shouldered build, full beard, glasses and balding head help sell the appearance.
Fashion is only for people who need other people to tell them what to wear.
Form follows function. I don't wear boots because I think they look good, I wear them because they're comfortable to walk around in for a whole day and last much longer than regular shoes.
I don't wear polo shirts because they look good, I wear them because they're comfortable and because the collar is practical to avoid sunburn on my neck. They also tend to last longer than t-shirts.
I don't wear work pants because they look good, I wear them because they're comfortable, last longer than regular pants and because they have a bunch of practical pockets.
The end result may be that I do fit a certain type of look, but that is incidental and was never the goal in itself.
Fashion trends are pointless and destructive. They herd us into cheaply made fast fashion and is a great factor in our willfull destruction of the environment.
For each of the things that you’ve mentioned (boots are comfortable and last longer, etc) that you attribute as “form following function”, each of the functions may be fit by alternative forms.
You say you wear boots: what type? Even within steel-toed work boots there’s several different styles and fashions, and colour makes a difference. I did a quick search and on “Boot Barn”, there are 611 styles of steel-toed work shoes. For “style”, you have: 202 pull-on style, 172 lace-up (137 6" and 80 8"); 66 cowboy; 30 high/low top; 28 logger; 20 hiking; 19 roper; 19 wedge; 16 slip-on; 16 work sneaker; 10 driving shoe; 9 authentic; 7 Chukka; 7 Oxfords… You have work shoes that are heavily rubberized for electrical hazards; you have anti-slip.
You picked a style of boots that you _liked_. You may have had functional reasons for picking boots in the first place, but whether you want to admit it or not, you picked a particular _fashion_.
When you buy polo shirts (which I don’t wear because they look _awful_ on me, and they’re not at all comfortable), do you have colours and/or brands that you buy regularly? You might buy Lacoste brand entirely because you’ve found their quality good, or maybe you buy Hilfigger (or do you buy an entirely different brand because both Lacoste and Hilfigger are too “fashion”, so you’ve chosen the “anti-fashion” fashion brand?). Do you always buy the same two or three colours of polo shirts? You’re following a fashion.
Fashion is what people _do_. It’s not this amorphous thing. What is fashionable this year is not fashionable next year. Sometimes this is driven by fashion designers, but more often than not, a “fashion trend” takes two to ten years to catch on and become popular enough to become a “trend”. (Was punk a fashion trend? No, but it spawned at least three or four fashion trends out of it as people started to follow the scene and then age out of it.)
So dude, what you wear _is_ your fashion. You may not think that it’s fashionable, but you’re choosing your look based on an aesthetic that you believe you inhabit _whether you think so or not_. Otherwise, you’d have chosen an entirely _different_ look based on the same functional requirements you stated.
If you buy from the fashion-adjacent brands, some of which have also introduced streetwear collections, of course they will reflect some trends. If you buy from brands that purely make work clothes, practicality still comes first, because if they don't last, they just lost a repeat customer. The main drivers in that segment are durability and comfort, not looks.
Generally I just try to avoid clothes with obviously tacked-on flair and garish design elements. That means I mostly buy straight forward work pants and shirts, polos/t-shirts with no logos (or minimal logos for polos, they're hard to find without the traditional little logo on them), and boots/shoes in subdued or clean classic designs. I like the Norwegian M77 military boots because they're affordable, comfortable and super durable, and because they don't scream "look at me I'm so tacticool!", unlike a lot of newer designs. They've been made unchanged since 1977, and they obviously got it right.
Is it fashion or anti-fashion? I don't know, I just don't want to be a walking billboard for silly trends.
I've had this discussion a number of times, and I guess it really bugs people that not everyone cares obsessively about fashion and outward appearance as they do.
Just stop buying trends. Buy sustainable and long-lasting. Repair when things break. Keep the same things for as long as possible instead of buying something new all the time. Frequent thrift shops.
If that’s what you got from what I said, then either I’ve failed to make what I’m saying clear or you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said. I don’t actually care how you dress. As a lot of people are fond of saying—words have meanings. And what _you_ define as “fashion” is a small (but vocal and visible) subset of what the word “fashion” means. Sadly, even if one is trying to buck trends…you’re participating in a trend of bucking trends.
You are describing a fashion—a trend even—that resonates with a certain number of people.
I am also amused that you recommend visiting thrift shops. Fashion “leaders” tend to make their own clothing, visit thrift shops (because often they are poor artists trying to make their own way and can’t afford or don’t like the current fast fashion trends), and combine clothing in ways that (sometimes) eventually becomes a fashionable trend.
(Consider the pre-ripped jeans trend. This wasn’t caused by some “Fashion Overlord” deciding that this would be some year’s fashion. People who became fashionable wore their jeans into the ground and looked good in them. Other people couldn't/didn’t want to rip their jeans or wear them into the ground like that, but felt that having ripped jeans gave them some sort of fashion credibility…so it became something that mattered in fast fashion. But it started from someone who didn’t decide to make a fashion statement as such anyway.)
I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it: none of my clothing choices are based on fashion nor on appearance, other than the basic requirement of actually being dressed and not wearing ragged scraps.
My choices are based on practicality. If someone wants to turn that into fashion, they can go right ahead, it won't change my choices.
You’re assuming that fashion is vanity.
It isn’t.
If you phrase them as universals, thereby implicitly criticizing everyone who has different tastes, expect pushback from everyone whose tastes disagree.
If you phrase it as personal preference and accept the less dramatic expression that that supports, you’ll get less pushback.
If you phrase it as a universal and then have an offended response to the pushback because people should respect the difference in tastes, then, well, you've got a reasonable complaint but are directing it in the wrong direction.
At first I was intensely disappointed by the post ("why so wordy?", "why no pictures?"), but then I got to the design part and said "holy shit I want this".
If people are happy with their cargo pants, no worries . It doesn't conform to a lot of current fashion aesthetic, but if that doesn't hit a person's radar, then cool, great. But a lot of people in the thread here are feeling attacked because someone doesn't like to wear the pants they like to wear.
Fashion is aesthetic and therefore subjective, and it changes over time. At one point cargo pants might have even been "cool". I don't remember them ever being "office" though.
Last time I wore cargo pants (probably the late 90s) I remember everything just annoyingly swing around as I walked.
https://store.google.com/us/product/pixel_3a_specs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_3a#Specifications https://store.google.com/us/product/pixel_3a_case_fabric
I find the solution interesting even for women. I solved the same problem by putting the pockets horizontally at the waist. I will try moving the pocket down to the upper leg.
I like the horizontal, but maybe a 15 degree angle would be best, however, do the horiz pockets get in the way when you sit?
I started with the Silhouette 3 piece yoga pattern (which has a side panel) and made the pocket horizontal. It seems to me you can take an off-the-rack pair of pants and make the same modification.
I hope for the return for Zozosuit, personally. I didn't get a chance to buy anything before they shut down but I enjoyed the measurement process and was hopeful for a good pair of jeans.
https://qz.com/quartzy/1539036/the-zozosuit-has-been-an-expe...
How hard can it be to 3d scan a person and output a custom fitted garment? Print? Robo sew? Anyway it seems like a bounded engineering problem.
Edit: it was ‘Getwear’, found the name through the design company portfolio. They specialized in jeans. Alas, since the site is dead, I can't locate the postmortem, only this article in Russian: https://vc.ru/offline/6359-getwear-close
Basically, it seems that the demand just isn't there.
Your sewing robot will make a dozen of units per day and cost hundreds of thousands. Monthly salary of just several sw engineers from SV is probably greater than total operational expenses of a medium-sized factory in India for a year.
I wonder how much extra you’d pay for extra pockets.
By the way this is the way the fashion industry has operated for a long time and people are rightfully sick of it.
The author would have done much better to avoid making general statements. He could have said something like "i really do not like the way pockets look on my pants. I like to wear tight pants and large pockets really ruin that look."
> Appendix: Sam, have you simply invented cargo pants?
> No. Cargo pants solve different problems for different people.
> If cargo pants are appropriate for your daily life, you definitely don’t want or need my side-seam welt pockets; and vice-versa. Cargo pants aren’t office-wear; these dress pants aren’t combat-wear.
EDIT: it seems like the author edited the article. Never mind.
That sounds like an awfully pretentious office, that I personally would never agree to work in.
They implement this pocket strategy and work well for me. The author would likely be interested to know that this topic was covered in detail as an engineering exercise in NASA flight suits. More functional pockets for people strapped into a vehicle.
One of the more interesting innovations was a pocket on the top of the thigh for holding flight checklists or maps. It had a clear cover so that what was inside the pocket could be viewed without taking it out. A phone pocket like that would be pretty cool (and way nerdy but hey, if the pocket fits ... :-))
Superficially, perhaps. But the zipper inclusion makes your example the "strategic" difference that properly considers the importance of what might be stored in such a pocket. IMHO, the author's approach is overshadowed by cost cutting, where the narrative serves to distract the reader with discourse on "method" that doesn't quite align with the original problem description.
When I click the x I only get another scammy dating site.
And unlike GP I cannot remember visiting one in the first place :-/
Also the lower the pocket is, the higher the chance stuff will jiggle around if you run or simply walk faster, because it has more room to do it down the leg and the range of motion is wider. Is this the case with the phone in one of these pockets?
Cargo pants solve different problems for different people.
If cargo pants are appropriate for your daily life, you definitely don’t want or need my side-seam welt pockets; and vice-versa. Cargo pants aren’t office-wear; these dress pants aren’t combat-wear.
This is not dismissing cargo pants or the wearing thereof. This is dismissing the failure to grasp that details matter a lot in fashion, and the detailing in cargo pants renders them inappropriate to certain contexts. It even directly acknowledges that this goes both ways, and that the detailing on these pants would render them inappropriate to the contexts that cargo pants are designed for (if not limited to).
>No. Cargo pants are fashion-as-pretend-occupation — when not at work, wear a fancy chronometer to suggest you’re a pilot or a diver, or camo to suggest you’re in the military. Cargo pants are a paratrooper costume. Cargo shorts have giant external pouches so teenagers in the 90’s, trapped in school, could say (sartorially) “I go out into the world and do adventurous things!” even though the things they stored in those pouches were doritos and portable cd players.
>I am discussing clothing as it might be worn by people while doing their real jobs, not their pretend ones. If cargo pants are appropriate for your real job, you definitely don’t want or need my side-seam welt pockets; and vice-versa."
You're getting the wrong pants if that's the case.
For a time now, I've been buying work pants almost exclusively. Not the cargo pants with flappy hip pockets, but the lighter duty work pants or "service pants", though I'm not 100% sure of the correct english word for them. They're work pants, but not made for heavy physical labor.
Specifically I've been buying pants from the Swedish brand Blåkläder. The quality is just so far beyond chinos or affordable jeans you can get today, and there are so many practical pockets. Even though I work in an office as a computer toucher, I like wearing these work pants, also as a statement of solidarity with the people who ply their trades out in the real world.
If you want something that doesn't have cargo pockets, Varusteleka's tactical jeans are utterly amazing, the most comfortable jeans I've ever worn. Their worker pants are great too, but somewhat more old-fashioned in design.
Slim fit pants just need to go away forever, honestly. They're needlessly uncomfortable for literally not benefit at all, plus you even look stupid in them.
In the UK we might call them "combats" or "combat trousers", and the best ones tend to come from military surplus stores.
So it's "service" as in service tech or mechanic, not military service.
https://www.blaklader.com/en/product/16251370-blaklader-work...
For shorts, I really like their Unite shorts in ripstop polycotton.
It's a nice blog post showing why they solve a problem and how to iterate, but it's about as novel as wearing a coat to keep from getting cold. I suspect you and the blog author are unusual in that you don't know about this pretty common pant type.
They were a big enough deal that Time Magazine put them in their "Best inventions of 2001" list: http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,288...
In the end, I didn't really care for them and it looks like most people didn't either as they're discontinued. The cargo pocket was more fussy than just putting my stuff in the regular old pockets. I think I remember hitting things with my knees a lot in certain positions.
These days? I guess it depends on what you consider "dress pants", but for pants that don't scream "I'm working construction or shooting a gun during an invasion"...looking around for a bit, Dickies, Red Kap, Scottevest (promoted by Steve Wozniak specifically as a good pair of pants for big phones), Docker D3 line. I've definitely seen them at places like Target, JoS.A.Bank, etc.
Tactical brands like 5.11, Woolrich, Propper, etc. will also sell "discreet" or "concealed carry" cargo pants that look basically like normal slacks.
There's also a ton of plain old fitted and fashion cargo pants around too. I think Armani, Betabrand, etc. has some. They look a bit obnoxious to me I'm afraid.
As a 90s nerd that fell into a habit of carpenter pants when they were briefly cool, but came to respect the "mobile pocket" functionality of having a pocket further down the leg towards the knees. It's really fast/convenient to move things (especially phones) in/out of. It's continued to surprise me how slow it has been to be adapted to other pants. If it takes the "mobile pocket" rebrand, that's fine, but it's still somewhat rude to forget the blue collar roots of the idea.
(It also amuses me that while the article addresses the cargo pants criticism, doesn't seem familiar with either the "mobile pocket" or "carpenter's pocket" name.)
And there's some men's one out there similar: https://www.hugoboss.com/us/relaxed-fit-cargo-pants-in-itali... https://www.wearfigs.com/pages/shop-products/mens-axim-cargo...
Although as a programmer, no one would bat an eye if I wore shorts to work, even, so I find the author's claims that cargos can't be worn to an office kind of outdated. Maybe he's a car salesman or something and his boss forces his to wear a suit.
>No. Cargo pants are fashion-as-pretend-occupation — when not at work, wear a fancy chronometer to suggest you’re a pilot or a diver, or camo to suggest you’re in the military. Cargo pants are a paratrooper costume. Cargo shorts have giant external pouches so teenagers in the 90’s, trapped in school, could say (sartorially) “I go out into the world and do adventurous things!” even though the things they stored in those pouches were doritos and portable cd players.
>I am discussing clothing as it might be worn by people while doing their real jobs, not their pretend ones. If cargo pants are appropriate for your real job, you definitely don’t want or need my side-seam welt pockets; and vice-versa."
Apologies if I'm dense but it is just a reinvention of cargo pants albeit in a more slick way.
And several techwear brands already provide this kind of pockets and gravity pockets as well
This fits none of those (besides being casual slacks)
At least I know folks read all the way to the end, I suppose.
That’s patently ridiculous. Heck, some of my highest earning years of late had me working with customers where I’d be more likely to see flip-flops than a collared shirt.
Edit: Or maybe I'm wrong, and there are other kinds of pants with many pockets.
These have ten pockets. https://shop.bluffworks.com/products/ascender-chino-regular-...
It becomes kinda cosplay when you have guy in desert camo cargo pants with huge belt with multitool on it, in desert combat boots and beige t-shirt ... in an office, coding Java.
But I'm the guy who goes there wearing M65, jeans and Doc Martens so who am I to talk.
Also you can get slim and stretch cargo pants, which removes the biggest complaint fashion people ususlly have with cargo pants (OMG HUGE BAGGY) and are more techwear/streetwear than military. Unless you get them in camo.
By all means cargo pants for a pure coder who doesn’t tinker is sensible, but when I’m hacking away on electronics projects at home they come in handy to hold tools and parts.
In your defense I’ve found the recent trend of wealthy, highly fashionable Women wearing skin tight ancient camo patterns from the mid 20th century equally as deplorable as you speak about cargo pants here, and for all I know there is someone who can disagree with my opinion quite reasonably as well.
EDIT: The little runway video on this link about perfectly sums up everything I feel is wrong. I do not understand anything going on here - all stars with loose camo pants and a denim carhartt jacket? SMH
https://www.mrporter.com/en-us/mens/product/carhartt-wip/clo...
I mean, the OG "fashion as pretend occupation" are just pants in general. The purpose of pants is a piece of clothing that lets you ride horses comfortably. Everywhere people started riding horses (and hence wearing pants), it became fashionable for non-horse-riders to wear pants as well.
The world is full of people who own objects that help them project an image, essentially the essence of jewelry.
IMO, that's not really a bad thing (unless your highest value is authenticity) it's just what people do.
This isn't to say that there aren't people who actually use the objects for their intended purpose. But what percent of people who drive trucks regularly haul stuff or drive off-road?
I'm not an expert on clothing history, so I don't want to give bad info. I'm sure there are good resources out there if you're curious enough.
I'd assume, though, that it varied by latitude.
A widespread low-but-definitely-nonzero would be that you can absolutely wear what you like, but half of the informal roles that are within the scope of your job description are effectively closed unless you dress the part.
The blog author comes across as fetishizing that shallow, expensive, your-opinion-dictated-by-fashion, world.
I'm currently wearing cargo pants (Columbia Flex Roc). I typically wear Levi's 541s. The Columbia pants do happen to have a side-seam welt pocket that that meets all your requirements. They're comfortable both in a customer conference room or if I'm on the plant floor inside a machine.
I think the reason people are offended by your characterization is that they wear 'cargo pants' but we are not in a different demographic. My Columbia pants solve the exact problem you have and are worn by people exactly within your demographic. (Not to mention physically closer than you think, after a bit of stalking your website, I'm 20 miles north of you, we probably have some of the same clients).
Though it's also possible that they're not cargo pants, maybe they're dad pants. That.... might be the case. And perhaps you're rebelling against becoming one of 'those' middle-aged men. Just give in to it. Have you tried carrying your multitool in the side seam pocket? It's just so handy! :)
But the only demographic I named was "people who can wear cargo pants to work", so you kind of set me up for a "no true scotsman". There are events, and clients, to which I wouldn't wear cargo pants, therefore we're in different demographics :)
It is a little disheartening to spend so much time talking about cargo pants, when I relegated them to a postscript and only mentioned them to say "I am not talking about cargo pants".
But nice to meet another michigander! Hopefully I'll see you at some meetup or event once we have those sorts of things again.
But that is totally your own fault for denigrating cargo pant wearers in the initial version of the post.
Edit: It appears that this was unintentional on the authors part and he has since edited it. Which is great!
> I am discussing clothing as it might be worn by people while doing their real jobs, not their pretend ones. If cargo pants are appropriate for your real job, you definitely don’t want or need my side-seam welt pockets; and vice-versa."
It’s just standard West-coast backlash against fashion snobbery. You might as well have said that anyone not wearing a 3-piece suit isn’t fit to go into the office.
Another commenter mentioned fitting a notebook & pen in pockets - I'd struggle to fit them in your current pants.
[0] https://columbia.scene7.com/is/image/ColumbiaSportswear2/179...
[1] https://www.g-star.com/en_gb/shop/men/trousers/d02190-5126-2...
This seems more likely: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Dork+in+cargo+pants&t=fpas&iar=ima...
[511s] https://www.very.co.uk/levis-511-slim-fit-jeans-black/160011...
I just wish the phone pocket was big enough for the phablets.
As for brand, I visit the local workwear place and buy whatever they have in my size (usually dickies or similar) and move on - clothes made as actual workwear tend to be tougher and better made than 'fashion' knock-offs of working gear.
Nothing makes me more upset than needing a pad and paper at a moment's notice, but having to reach into a backpack or a messenger bag instead. That feeling of dread when you realize the moment has passed, the thought is gone forever, and if I had only had quick access to my pen and pad, I would have saved a potentially enormously lucrative idea. But the extra 5 seconds to take the paper and pen out of my backpack the one time every year I need to write something down on the go cost me dearly. Now, I optimize for that rare situation. Sure, I look like a 15 year old manchild who never learned to properly dress himself, but that's fine, I work in tech, and don't need to interact with non tech people who have preconceived notions about me.
And don't even get me started on regular pants pockets for your phone or wallet or keys. Sure they fit securely, are easy to access, and are universal, but they're not functionally elegant cargo pockets.
What, exactly, do you think cargo pants are? They aren't "any pants with pockets on the side of the leg".
Apparently cargo pants have "patch pockets", which I guess is the difference.
The following is not exactly relevant to the article, but it gives me a chance to add the most useful quote I know about fashion design:
>When cuffs disappeared from men’s trousers, fashion designers gave interviews explaining that the cuff was archaic and ill-suited to contemporary living. It collected dust, contributed nothing. When the trouser cuff returned, did it collect less dust and begin at last to make a contribution? Probably no fashion designer would argue the point; but the question never came up. Designers got rid of the cuff because there aren’t many options for making trousers different. They restored it for the same reason. (Ralph Caplan)
> Appendix: Sam, have you simply invented cargo pants?
> No. Cargo pants solve different problems for different people.
> If cargo pants are appropriate for your daily life, you definitely don’t want or need my side-seam welt pockets; and vice-versa. Cargo pants aren’t office-wear; these dress pants aren’t combat-wear.
Maybe the author softened the language there?
Hiking clothing is my preferred kind, even if I am not hiking. Here are some arguments:
- They tend to look neutral. Not flashy like other kind of sportswear, and not as obvious as cargo pants.
- They are comfortable, reasonably durable, and low maintenance. They are made for hiking after all.
- They tend to have plenty of pockets, including ones in the location recommended by the article.
- Zippers on pockets are common. Makes them safer. They usually have some sort of water resistance too.
- Speaking of water resistance, it is another great feature of hiking pants, they often have a hydrophobic coating (that doesn't always last unfortunately) and are designed to dry quickly. Rain doesn't only happen during hikes.
Of course, their neutral style is a negative if you want to make a fashion statement, but in a casual setting, if you don't care and don't want others to care, this is perfect.
https://www.norrona.com/en-GB/products/lofoten/lofoten-gore-...
In that style I broke from wearing Carhartt WIP chinos and bought some of these as they had the front pockets.
https://tripleaughtdesign.com/shop/aspect-rs-pant/
They have a pretty nice cut and don’t scream militia member quite so much as the Crye trousers.
> Angled dual entry cargo pocket
https://www.rei.com/product/126938/rei-co-op-traverse-35-pac...
This is an example using the same exact design they display
Have you performed a survey? My intuition, from my own experience, is that most people are completely ignorant of the symbolism of cargo pants and use them solely for the cargo feature.
I wear Eddie Bauer "Guide Pro" pants. I recommend them, mostly. I haven't found more stylish cargo pants. https://www.eddiebauer.com/p/12951063/men-s-guide-pro-pants
Note, this is just my impression. Maybe there are people out there who just really hate extra pockets.
Everything is a statement, the lack of intention can be doubly so. There are entire utilitarian schools of thought in fashion just like there is in everything else.
Also fashion doesn't exist solely to please others! I wouldn't dismiss an entire massive industry as inane. Vanity is a big part of it like a lot of other things, but if you're making a conscious choice in what you wear... fashion is playing some small role.
> Where is there enough support to prevent items swinging around uncomfortably?
He answered this with a box basically around the thighs, but I'd also add the torso and maybe even the upper arms.
A personal bugbear of mine is jackets without internal breast pockets. When you have one on each side of a jacket that isn't ultra lightweight, it fits a wallet and phone perfectly, it's super accessible, and it doesn't change the appearance. In San Francisco where you never really need to zip/button up your jacket, it's perfect. This is the hill I will die on.
When shopping a jacket without dual internal breast pockets goes back on the rack and won’t be considered.
That said, I agree with you that internal pockets in jackets are great (though obviously it can be harder to access the contents once you have taken the jacket off).
I do also have a jacket with a pocket on the upper sleeve. It’s tiny and weird and basically useless and I’m not really sure what it’s for (credit card? Tiny MP3 player? If it were a skiing jacket then I might guess it was for a lift pass but it’s definitely not a skiing jacket and it’s a weird manoeuvre to try to get your upper arm to a reader at waist height) though sometimes I will put my keys there because their lumpy shape makes them uncomfortable in pockets closer to the skin and I rarely need to access them
In the case of this article, I have three more feature requests:
1. The pocket should be narrow enough so the phone can't rotate sideways while it's in there. That's my biggest complaint about cargo or hiking pants, which is what I typically wear.
2. Pay attention to how the phone behaves while riding a bike. I don't want pants that require me to find a special place for my phone while I'm out and active. But the author's designs look like they stand a real chance.
3. The pocket should be slightly "hooked" on the inside, so my phone doesn't slide out during my nap. I owe two broken phone screens to this phenomenon.
Google 'dockers cell phone pocket'. You can already get shorts and pants with a cell phone pocket on the side. Some very similar to yours, some zippered, some a little closer to the hip, some a little lower.
Anyway, seems neat! I had some work shorts on a summer job years ago, funnily they were mostly like cargo pants, but they had an additional pocked very similar to your proposed one. It could be used for a folding meter stick (or whatever it's called in English) and that pocket alone made the shorts perfect. It allowed easy storage and access to a frequently used tool which was almost unwieldy long.
Do you plan to sell something like this online?
Even the US startups that are making clothes to customized measurements, etc, are forced to stay price-competitive by using the same overseas factories that (in addition to the specific kinds of inflexibility I bring up in the post) are often labor rights disasters, which is part of why I make my own clothes in the first place.
If I had a clear plan of attack against fast fashion, I'd probably take it, but the best I have right now is individual action.
These are merely pants with additional pockets. Their placement being similar to cargo pants being merely a coincidence...
Saying, "Oh, its just all some pants with pockets and thus it's all the same reinvention" doesn't help anybody - it's like saying to one which proposes a better roofing system that a shed and a house have both a roof already, so why bother making it better for one of those. Er what?
I realize that within-the-seam vs, welt pocket is externally a small thing, but it changes the order of construction dramatically. My approach doesn't need a zipper to prevent things falling out, but does need a reordering of the construction process, and so is much rarer to see for exactly the reasons I enumerate in the post, even in spite of being potentially materially cheaper.
This style holds the phone better but I find it too much effort to get the phone out: https://di2ponv0v5otw.cloudfront.net/posts/2019/02/28/5c78a7...
Notice the button: https://www.westportbigandtall.com/ProductImages/37600/37600...
I had a couple pair stashed away hoping I’d lose weight but when I did I suddenly remembered I don’t wear khakis or slacks anymore, so why am I keeping these?
But a pocket that low on the thigh could take a hit, and I’m not sure these days when I’m more active if that’s a great idea.
Years before the DIY/maker movement started up, I saw a howto where someone slit the pocket in their jeans and sewed a second pocket over it, so that you had a double pocket. I know someone who owns a serger and I have made noises several times about getting some pants altered but we never manage to connect on that.
It’ll all be moot anyway in a few years if they keep making phones bigger. We will all be carrying purses for our phones.
I'm a bit worried about pickpockets though with the pockets so low. Right now if I'm worried about them (I live in Barcelona where they are a major pest!) I put my hands in my pockets. That won't work if they're so far down.
However I do love rethinking common things we take for granted, especially about clothing. For one I don't understand how the common business suit is so popular. It looks really old-fashioned (has hardly changed design over the years), has all sorts of non-functional appendages like those flaps on the jackets, collars, cuffs, ties, nonfunctional pockets, buttons you're not supposed to use etc. They're super uncomfortable, restrictive and sweaty. And they're really generic, everyone from a store manager to a president wears them. And for what? Everyone in business wears them so they're not proving anything.. It's almost like a uniform. Humanity shouldn't be that shallow :) Uniforms are about stripping a person of their identity whereas business and politics is all about being more distinctive than others. I really don't get why this is such a thing :)
[0]: https://www.target.com/p/wrangler-men-s-five-pocket-pants-na...
I still think the standard suit looks silly, but when well-made, it is actually designed to be worn comfortably for a whole workday.
But at least I can have fun with them.. "buttons you're not supposed to use" is basically an old meme. Button them up if you like and tell people that's the current style. See how many can you convert. That's all it is really. Or wear fun colour suits. There are options if you can afford the game.
They're also sewn in line with the outside seam, again to help conceal them.
Pockets are not a feature to showcase on dress pants, and in most cases take away from the formality of the garment.
I use the coin pocket extensively: for coins, medicine, chewing gum etc.
Lactase
Also AirPods
[0]: https://www.heddels.com/2019/04/fade-day-unbranded-ub421-14-...
That seems a bit of an odd thing to carry; how often do you use it?
I live in New York, where smoking is more common, and I've found an abundance of social situations that become available when a stranger needs a light.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/apparel-and-safet...
https://www.carhartt.com/products/Rugged-Work-Khaki-Pant-100...
But, truth be told, I enjoy these threads where I absolutely have no opinion and can look, sometimes in amusement but mostly in wonderment, at all sides of the debates.
Keep the passion strong, fellow readers.
I recently discovered that "hiking pants" are superior in almost every way to normal pants. They're usually more comfortable, deal with both high and low temperatures well, and nowadays have aesthetic styles that you can even wear in semi-formal work situations or to a nice dinner.
Ever since I have started earning, I buy as many cargos as I can buy. During college, I used to buy from factory sale. Always rummaging through all leading websites like Myntra, Amazon, Flipkart, et al for a good deal on cargos, almost on a daily basis. I buy one at least on a monthly basis. If I don't like it, I just return and get my money back. Today morning itself I bought an H&M cargos from their website's 50% sale.
I am quite parsimonious too, so buy only those which are offered at 50 - 70% discount and that too from big brands like USPA, H&M, et al.
Recently, I have taken a lot of fondness for H&M cargos. I am a person who needs at least 5.5" - 6.1" iPhone (since I read a lot on it) and protect my iPhone with Otterbox Defender/ Griffin Survivor cases. Love the rugged look which the protective cases lend akin to top-secret military/ CIA satellite spy phone.
Ipso facto, I need cargos to carry my iPhone around.
I wear cargos to work daily as well. Have started researching the availability of formal cargo trousers. Very soon I would be moving to Canada and then to the USA, not sure how much acceptable is cargos in the workplace there.
Very soon, once I am well disposed of, I plan to design and stitch my own cargos, particularly formal ones. Would be drawing a lot of inspiration from USPA and H&M cargos, and would be researching on a tough, thick, stretchable fabric as well.
I think the author is onto something, though I'm still not convinced these pockets give a nice line with much in them, which people generally care about. Dickies-type trousers tend to have a looser fit than the pictured trousers. The article photos with a phone held partly in the pocket aren't definitive.
There's a slight bulge from the welt of the pocket itself, which I'm still experimenting with, but with-phone is truly indistinguishable from without-phone when I'm standing up. Seated, there's a bulge at the side of the thigh if you really look for it.
Good work by the way, and I hope you change the trouserial (?) world.
I know of a few brands that buck this trend, but they're basically constrained to wealthy aestheticians.
I used to tell my wife that one of the primary considerations I make when looking for pants is that they have usable pockets: not too big, not too small. Mostly, this is doable for me. However, when we started shopping for her I would joke about the female fashion conspiracy to sell more accessories: they don't put in pockets in women's clothes so they can sell clutches, purses and other stuff. All that aside I think it's just figuring out what works for you and there's more than one way to handle personal storage needs.
1: https://www.duluthtrading.com/mens-duluthflex-ballroom-slim-...
1. https://www.duluthtrading.com/mens-duluthflex-fire-hose-rela...
It had a ton of pockets of all different sizes, including one large one for his Newton. He always had enough pockets and could reach everything standing or sitting, and even while driving.
He was all about efficiency. He also had shoes that you could clip wheels to and turn them into roller blades, so he could snap those on and be at the datacenter in seconds, as long as no one was in the hall. :)
Christopher Wylie: can fashion save the world?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Christopher+Wylie+can+fashio...
>'Wylie started work as a fashion trend forecaster, before switching roles to help the Liberal Democrats update their voter targeting. He saw the potential for harvesting Facebook data to help build psychological profiles of its users, which could in turn be used to target them with political ads. It was an idea that, in 2013, got him hired at the SCL Group — the parent company of Cambridge Analytica.
...Fashion and music, Wylie says, are among the best predictors of political orientation. And as such, they have the potential to help shift the political conversation. The following is an edited and abridged transcript of a conversation he had with Imran Amed, the BoF founder, and the FT to explain how fashion is in the perfect position to make the world a better place.'
Maybe if Facebook or Google were designing pants to maximize user engagement, that’d be the case. But I’d say good UX means that taking your phone out should be a conscious decision, not a compulsive habit.
I like the idea though. The design looks nice and it’s nice that someone’s thinking about this, because we seem to be in a path towards tight pants and giant phones.
My only objection is so something in the coda:
> Cargo pants aren’t office-wear
I have been in the workforce for almost 40 years and have never worked somewhere where anyone would bat an eye at cargo pants.
There is a running "flip belt" that is also essentially the same thing. I haven't pulled the trigger, but it remains on my mind.
* FlipBelt
* Naked Running Band
* SPIbelt
* Salomon Pulse
Also, a comparison review of a bunch of different models: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-running-belt...
Would have been cool to see the pants in a wool plaid or suiting material to emphasize their dressiness. I think people are getting cargo pants vibe because of the dark green twill.
I could perhaps get used to it, especially if they fit a bit tighter as his seem to.
The only annoying thing is finding ones where everything including the hip pocket linings are made of the same heavy material, there are too many where that lining is normal smart trouser pocket material and tear through long before the rest of the trousers are showing noticeable wear.
Admittedly, the shoes I've settled on have a deep tread and steel toe caps, but neither of those really show if you aren't looking for them :D
I think the next step is to reinvent the bum bag in a slightly more sartorially-elegant form.
Purposely adopting cargo pants requires a rejection of the primacy of common, mainstream aesthetic culture in clothing decision-making for any of a variety of reasons. Examples include, but are in no way limited to, functional reasons and personal aesthetics.
Thank you for this opportunity to clarify my thoughts.
Fashion is a feature of socialization, and not everyone was socialized the same way.
Cargo pants are a style that emphasizes the size and bulk of the pockets to telegraph maximum utility. That is definitely not the case here. These seemed to be intended to provide a balance of utility with only minimal bulk.
I have had various pants over the last 15 years or so with variations of this pocket. When wearing them I keep my phone there and it is a relief. This avoids the pressure and breaking risk of the upper pockets and it avoids the unnecessary flopping around from a cargo pocket.
Weirdly, the pictures pants are not slim jeans, thought that was the motivating problem. They look like not particularly slim khakis.
The pocket location is also quite similar to the low-profile cargo pocket location on some of the 5.11 Tactical pants that are designed for unobtrusive utility, addressing a somewhat similar problem space (useful pockets in relatively slim pants.) So, I'm not sure there is really an innovative solution here
But, like most middle-to-upper class fashion for centuries, the driving force between the popularity of skinny jeans is the ostentatious sacrifice of utility because the need for useful clothing is a marker of proletarian status. And the signalling is as much to the wearer as outside observers, so I'm not sure there's going to be a mass market demand for this.
> Aesthetically, we want a clean, graceful line from hip to ankle even while holding things.
How are side bulges above the knee clean and graceful?
> Where is there enough support to prevent items swinging around uncomfortably?
Because pants are looser around the knee than the waist, heavy items like a phone will constantly be swinging around uncomfortably down there -- same as they do in cargo pants.
As for the problem that started it all:
> Putting a modern slab phone, a wallet, and keys into a pair of skinny jeans will leave even the most fashionable figure looking looking like they’re wearing batman’s utility belt as underwear.
A little bit, yes, but it's really just the least bad solution. Everything else is even worse. The market has settled on pockets as they are, because they actually truly work best.
And there's no bulge at the knee because trousers don't fit tightly at the knee -- otherwise, you would't be able to sit down. The fit at the top of the pocket prevents swing, and the ease at the bottom prevents bulge.
You can have a "pocket-in-pocket" to avoid that problem. My Lululemon trousers [1] have that where I can fit an iPhone 8 so it stays put (I don't store my iPhone as the "double-pocket" in the pictures, it is rather a hidden pocket inside the pocket on the right hand side)
[1] https://www.eu.lululemon.com/en-lu/p/commission-pant-classic...
What am I missing here?
Nobody tell him about tactical kilts†. He'll have an aneurysm.
†"Utilikilts" for those in Seattle.
Youtube is chock-full of "learn to sew" videos, and you can buy paper patterns online, or in person (and get helpful advice) at your local fabric store.
The instructions that come with such patterns are bad, but still better than the average readme.
Then when you've got a feel for it, you can start drafting your own patterns. Much of the information that's available on that is for womenswear, but it doesn't take too much thought to translate things.
If you've never done garment sewing before, an apron is a good first project. It'll get you used to your machine and how to sew some simple hems and run a draw string. It's also something that's usable, which is nice. After that, pajama pants are a reasonable starting point to the world of pants. Really, any simple pattern should be fine, so something similar to this:
https://www.simplicity.com/simplicity-storefront-catalog/pat...
The key point on pajama or lounge pants is that they don't contain pockets or a fly. However, they do give practice on how to sew all of the fabric together on the crotch, which can be tricky to start. To add a fly, you'll have to learn how to sew a placket as well as how to either sew buttons and button holes or a zipper. Again, neither is particularly difficult, but they do require practice and there a lot of tricks to make it easier, which is partly why a beginning sewing class is nice. To add pockets, it depends on how nice you'd like it to look. Patch pockets have their own set of technique and how to interface, but are the mostly straight forward. You can substitute rear patch pockets with welted pockets and there are good online tutorials for those. As far as the front, I'll contend that slash pockets are easier than a j-style pocket that jeans typically have. Basically, the more complicated the pocket, they more pieces and interfacing that's required and it can be a pain.
If you really want to go the online route, Thread Theory has reasonable patterns that can be downloaded:
https://threadtheory.ca/collections/sewing-patterns
As far as traditional pattern makers, stuff from Simplicity is pretty simple, but stuff from places like Vogue is a pain.
Ok. That was an overload. Bottom line: (1) Get a machine (2) make an apron (3) get a pattern for pajama pants (4) slowly add features to your pajama pants until you want to make nice pants (5) get a pattern for nice pants (6) classes help a lot. Iterate on that as long as you're having fun.
I've lost around 20kg 2 years ago and were able to fit into a nice pair of slim jeans I used to wear in high school (around mid 00's). I've always carried my wallet in a left hand pocket and my phone+headphones in a right hand pocket. I couldn't fit any modern smartphone into the right hand pocket - the pocket was too short and your phone sticked out of the pocket all the time.
Kinda interesting, how the spread of modern computer devices changed a little detail in mass market fashion design.
It's true that there is space for innovation, but it's difficult to get below the $100-200 range for 'technical' (ie non-traditional cut) officewear.
If you have not seen them - women love them. And the pocket is slightly higher than yours.
(I love your design, FYI)
But go look at high-end womens workout clothes for pocket ideas too.
Also, while youre at it, the How I built this podcast with the founder of LuLuLemon is a really fascinating listen.
Personally - I am starting down the road to re-invent the backpack - and the umbrella...
- To carry my wallet+phone+keys, it will need to be reasonably sized - To be trusted with my wallet+phone+keys, it will need to be durable- built out of leather, or at least something like heavy canvas - It can't be brightly colored or otherwise goofy, because aesthetics - If you're wearing something on your hip that is dark-colored, made of heavy-duty material, and is roughly holster-sized, it will generally look like a gun holster to casual or distant inspection. That's not only a bad fashion statement, that's plausibly dangerous in some circumstances.
A pouch mounted right above the knee might solve this (I don't think anyone wears their pistol there?) if there's a decent way to wear a pouch that's not hung from the belt.
I imagine that’s why in urban areas the small corded Gucci/Louis Vuitton purses have become very popular with men and women alike, as they overcome some of the practical downsides, they’re more like fanny packs in the sense that they leave your hands free and stay close to your body. The fanny pack itself has made something of a comeback too, although now you wear them slung over a shoulder instead of around your hip.
Jackets are purses for men. Love them. Hate keeping stuff in my pants pockets.
That is a big advantage of locating pockets near the hips. First of all, as you walk your hips stay in a relatively fixed position, whereas your knees move back and forth a lot. So items nearer the knees are swung back and forth a lot more. Also, close to the waist where the cloth fits more tightly. Looser cloth closer to the knee tends to swing back and forth because there is more slack which allows it to do so.
Unfortunately, I don't know way to solve this and solve the problems that they have solved like accessibility when you're sitting down. Maybe you could stick pockets near the hip but on the side of the body instead of front or back. But those pockets would have to bend a whole lot.
Perhaps a hidden, floating, spandex style layer that encapsulates the pocket and contents against the leg would solve that issue? This could be done while minimizing impact to the outer appearance.
My 'workaround' when I'm on the bicycle -- which is everyday -- for phone has been this (rather expensive, but robust) every day carry-on backpack with a hidden-but-accessible phone pocket:
https://www.abordage-shop.com/12240-thickbox_default/brooks-...
Alas, OP, you say "no sales" ... perhaps I should start taking sewing classes, which reminds me, there's a hacker space (the only one in town) near me that also gives sewing workshops. Once the world fully reopens.
Love everything else about this btw.
Hope that changes though
Learning to sew clothes is like learning to cook after eating fast food all your life and not even knowing it was possible to combine ingredients in any way you wanted.
The possibilities are endless, empowering, overwhelming, and terrifying.
They do have a nasty habit of losing their contents while driving (knees often higher than waist), or sitting cross-legged. Buttons / zippers / etc combat this of course (magnetic closures are my favorite), but they are also a bit more visible and sometimes uncomfortable :)
Levi Denizen 231; https://www.target.com/p/denizen-174-from-levi-s-174-men-s-a...
Dockers comfort cargo; https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002Q8HM96
If people bought small phones, companies would make them.
And yes, people want entertainment too. Apple is just submitting to their customers desires.
If those came from Apple instead of consumers, they wouldn't be universal.
Also, idk - if your pants are so tight that you can't make use of the pockets you are definitely risking a Tom Brady moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAMUArVQtks
I got them for taking my son on hikes, but liked them so much I got more and started wearing them to work too. I don’t even use the standard pockets anymore, just the thigh pockets for the reasons described in the article.
Back pocket is fantastic as long as you don't sit down. And to take that to the next level, a finish carpenter's toolbelt. A back pocket big enough to fit a cantaloupe. With partitions. And you can slide the whole thing around to various places on your butt and hips as the situation requires.
I hope pockets like these do take off. I know too many women who've lamented the fact that they have few options for practical pants that don't also trade out the style of tighter-fitting women's wear.
Also I find it ironic women's work out tights have phone side pockets already figured out but men's are still limited to a key pouch on the back. Also very functional mesh panels but I suppose that's to close to mesh shirts for most dudes.
I had a pair of charcoal grey men's pants of some unknown heavier fabric that were cut slim instead of baggy like cargo pants or work pants, and had a pair of discrete flap pockets instead of bulky cargo pockets on them. I adored those pants.
I'd love a pair of slim-cut black jeans with that kind of pocket on them.
Whether or not they stay in style, at least they'll always be functional.
I'd definitely try a pair of these trousers as I hate sitting on my phone, but I'd still want regular front pockets too for keys.
These trousers look great. I wonder if he’ll make me some...
For office appropriate. I use the jeans.
Sadly tho the world has ended and no one will ever need office slacks again.
Love the idea of having side pockets for them with the slanted/deep pocket approach.
This part seems particularly unconvincing - if you take this at face value, all women's clothes "have pockets" because women typically carry a purse. I don't know many people who would agree with that.
In theory they're fine except I always put my keys into my right pocket because I'm right handed. My keys will fall into these mini pockets and get stuck.
These mini pockets should really be on the left side.
Did you DL one, buy one or make your own?
But you could easily add this to almost any pants pattern, so long as the inseam isn't flat-felled.
The only trick is that the inseam has to be open when you add the pocket to the outseam.
I haven't made a paper pattern of it, yet, because I've cut it differently each time. When I settle on a design I will make myself a pattern -- but it'll be pretty specific to me.
/s
This looks clean but I'd worry about stuff sliding out of the pocket, as I've had happen with medium-length waist pockets frequently over the years.
[0] https://www.prana.com/p/stretch-zion-convertible-pant/M4SC99...
I can't help but see this pocket as a liability; a cost-saving excuse to omit a proper securing mechanism of sorts shrouded by a pitch of being innovative. In a perfectly postured world with 2 operational modes--standing and sitting--this might be good enough, but I'd hardly be willing to risk yet another $600+ cellphone to find out when I'm crouching, squatting, gargoyling, kicking legs up, riding a bike, in a sports car bucket seat, etc.
Furthermore, if it's easy for you to slip your phone in and out of, then it'll also be easy for thieves to do so as well.