Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress
psyche.co
psyche.co
“The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society. Their perfect adjustment to that abnormal society is a measure of their mental sickness. These millions of abnormally normal people, living without fuss in a society to which, if they were fully human beings, they ought not to be adjusted.”
Over the centuries the society has mostly been unaccommodating to those who fall on the tails of this normal distribution, ostracizing them, punishing them, so on and so forth. But I still have faith in humanity to become more accepting and understanding those who are different instead of pressuring them to be the same.
So the first step is to believe that your life is not abnormal but just different from most people. I hope you find your solace in this ever-evolving world.
The myth/ideal of being "fully human" is an example of essentialism, and is one the techniques that authors like Huxley and many from his era employed. It preys upon the inner authoritarian desire to normalize the world for oneself above all else, even though ironically Huxley opposed authoritarianism himself.
A different take is that people's mental health as individuals is in a constant tug of war with their own circumstances, which are then in their own tug of war with the collective stresses of society. There is no normal/abnormal spectrum as Huxley would have us think. Just a complicated web of complicated agents, sometimes in harmony with their society and other times not. When the net entropy to the agent is relatively low, that's "normal". It's not a value judgement or a mark of inauthenticity the way Huxley might have you think.
We are no longer fully human beings.
Technology had changed what it is to be human even in Huxley's time; nowadays I wonder has AI already taken over? The prevalence of computer run algorithms in human beings decision making seems to imply it has started at least.
Technology is a very powerful tool we created. But so was the “invention” of the wheel.
I know those aren't scientifically definable notions, but if I've learned anything in the past 10 years its that science isn't the only way to say interesting things about the human experience. It's just what most educated people reach for.
This gets thrown about quite a bit without defining what "fully human" means. Given that it is a superlative, does it mean "free from the pressures of modern technological society"? Then it must also mean giving up the benefits of modern technological society, right?
There are few true primitivists out there, and for many today it is a sort of technology enabled lifestyle business. I know because I'm an avid watcher of many of their YouTube channels.
> Technology had changed what it is to be human even in Huxley's time; nowadays I wonder has AI already taken over?
Technology has always done this. That's not to say all technology is a net benefit. We should absolutely as a society scrutinize and regulate the use of some tech, but to cast it all as dehumanizing in the essentialist manner using the ever poorly defined "full human" as a foil seems highly reductive.
Fully human being is very hard to explain. According to my knowledge of Huxley is that it's someone who has essentially reached an ego state that has certain values(life, beauty, suffering). All is each which is all. I think if you haven't really dug into Huxley this could be confusing but fully human being is a specific thing.
Defining fully human as being in the nihilistic ego-destroyed state where differentiation between the Self and all existence is nullified is another fictional ideal. Huxley himself borrowed from eastern philosophy of Vedanta, of which Huxley was a student.
It's a deeply interesting path of thought to go down as an individual, but it shouldn't be mistaken as a prescription for how to be fully human in society a practical way, or a principle around which to configure society.
But I suppose every proverb is a platitude..
Essentialism is a moral critique. If you stick a tiger in a small cage it doesn’t breed — that is an objective observation rather than a moral critique. Huxleys argument is of the same nature — that society is becoming a cage to natural impulse and instinct.
That's a false analogy because it uses things that aren't related to each other in the same way. The society=>cage analogy isn't an objective observation, it is your opinion, and also an essentialism.
Furthermore, the objective functional effect of a cage on tiger breeding has no demonstrable comparison to human existence in society, except in your attempt to essentialize it that way.
The only essentialist argument is that there was a 'natural' to begin with, which in this case ought to be obvious. Our 'natural' environment, i.e. the environment in which we evolved to prosper, is far different in which the environment that we live today.
If you fail to see the analogy, you are either being overly reductive or you have very little imagination.
I think on average, we are better adjusted to this society then one thousands of years ago. Its hard to be adjusted to not having stable food or medical care or wwhatnot. But for some people, and in some ways, its worse. Thats a tradeoff and, since we have this awesome ability to change the environment, one we can work to understand and fix... not by working towards some ancient ideal, but creative forward thinking. The best environment hasn't existed yet.
Most kids can barely pass algebra. We here on hacker news have intuitions for how the algorithms that influence things work... the average person does not. When they hear about "fake news", "artificial lungs", "bioengineering", "drones" -- they don't see it the same way we do -- I see a cultural shift towards angst and fear of the power of technology.. that is warranted.
Even something as simple as birth control has profound influence on us as a species as well as our culture -- to which we are still adapting.
When one looks at other late-stage post-modern capitalist countries (e.g Japan) -- you see similar developments of asexuality as we are beginning to see here in the states.
How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? How about the arguments from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_and_Its_Disconten...
In my experience, US society allows for this form of authentic expression of grief. Take enough walks near overlooks or by bodies of water, and you will eventually see someone openly experiencing grief. Where have you experienced that this is not normative?
Calling it a cage is reductio ad absurdum. The presence of social norms does not invalidate the agency of humans or groups of humans in the way a cage does. Characterizing it as a cage is a strawman, often used by those who would simply like to destroy it and erect a "cage" of their own preference.
I'm not sure how you can say this with such confidence. Surely it depends on what the social norms are and how they are enforced (which could be with a literal cage.)
Freud posits 'man vs civilization' as an unavoidable conflict because the alternative to civilization is having a 10 million person carrying capacity on this world.
That is very different from r.d laing, Thomas szatz and other l. Ron Hubbard antipsychotics who think schizophrenia is a choice.
In other countries the social norms will have you killed for being gay. This is just as bad or worse than a cage in many respects.
No, it's one of the beliefs they held. The weasel phrasing "technique (...) that they employed" means they didn't believe in those, but used them cunningly to dupe people.
Second, merely saying "is an example of essentialism" doesn't solve anything, as if the case for essentialism or not is a solved one and we should now dump it. It's just a different school of thought. And can be far more nuanced than its given credit for, it's not just some caricature.
>There is no normal/abnormal spectrum as Huxley would have us think. Just a complicated web of complicated agents, sometimes in harmony with their society and other times not. When the net entropy to the agent is relatively low, that's "normal".
Well, normal could just as well be people adjusted (e.g. by the passage of time, cultural norm, brainwashing, etc) to horrendous conditions. There would have been many "normal" people by your definition in USSR, for example. Slavery was also normal once -- and not just free citizens consider it as such, and based on accounts many later generation slaves internalised this as "just the way things are" (the "Uncle Tomas" variety).
Without a degree of essentialism, that is, an idea of what is normal and what a person/society should strive for, you can accept anything.
Essentialism is a tool, at most a particular lens that should be viewed through, but what is seen should not taken as a truth, but only a highly filtered and downsampled representation of it. Essentialism is also what kept slavery justified (under the theory that Africans were "essentially" fit for forced labor), before a different essentialism took over.
Yes. It can't be written off as "essentially" (pun intended) bad. It depends on the use - and as everything in social life, it's complicated.
This seems kind of weird and unhealthy to me - did some "essentialist" person hurt you in some way or something?
Everyone I met who placed all their chips in pursuing a career were pretty much expressing their individuality. It just so happened that their individuality helped them thrive in a particular environment.
And you'd be surprised how material wealth, including as a status symbol, helps people express their individuality.
That reminds me of the propaganda movement from Edward Bernays [0] how he profited the industry by convincing people that they need to buy material things (for example, new fashionable clothes) to express their individuality.
“You who are in the field of psychology have given us a great word. It is the word maladjusted. This word is probably used more than any other word in psychology. It is a good word; certainly it is good that in dealing with what the word implies you are declaring that destructive maladjustment should be destroyed. You are saying that all must seek the well-adjusted life in order to avoid neurotic and schizophrenic personalities.
But on the other hand, I am sure that we will recognize that there are some things in our society, some things in our world, to which we should never be adjusted. There are some things concerning which we must always be maladjusted if we are to be people of good will. We must never adjust ourselves to racial discrimination and racial segregation. We must never adjust ourselves to religious bigotry. We must never adjust ourselves to economic conditions that take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few. We must never adjust ourselves to the madness of militarism, and the self-defeating effects of physical violence.”
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
No doubt others.
Plato:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-metaphysics/
Jiddu Krishnamurti:
https://charleseisenstein.org/video/it-is-no-measure-of-heal...
https://www.wildmind.org/blogs/quote-of-the-month/krishnamur...
Terence McKenna:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7391624-we-have-gone-sick-b...
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/5998836-the-reason-we-feel-...
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/9243.Terence_McKenna
Interestingly, this sort of phenomenon is rarely if ever discussed in the mainstream - rather, when any such ideas are discussed, they are typically mocked, trivialized, discredited, misrepresented, framed, "debunked", etc. It makes one wonder why things are this way - is this consensus perspective accidental, or might something else be going on? Can we point to any other historic examples of people being deliberately (mis)led, by coordinated and powerful actors, to believe certain things to be true, that are not actually true?
> Can we point to any other historic examples of people being deliberately (mis)led, by coordinated and powerful actors, to believe certain things to be true, that are not actually true?
I think the whole Public Relations (aka propaganda) movement would be an example of this delibrately misleading people to believe in certain things and force them act accordingly. The modern pioneer of this would be Edward Bernays [0] how he profited the industry by convincing people that they need to buy material things (for example, new fashionable clothes) to express their individuality or helping the Tobacco industry to get rid of the taboo of smoking among women.
But I would argue that this idea of misleading masses goes back in history. I would go out on a limb here but isn't the whole idea of Church based on fear of hell in order to make people act according to "Christian" values to seek eternal heaven and save their soul? Seems like delibrating misleading people in a coordinated manner to believe in ideas that are not actually proven to be true.
I feel part of the problem is the expectation that humans are supposed to be happy. Happy is just a state of mind, not necessarily our default state. Depression and mental pain have their uses. They alert us, something is wrong - make a change! Working through pain, not self-medicating, strengthens you. Even if you 'don't know what's wrong', the unconscious WILL act out on, repressed childhood trauma, for instance.
We're destined to suffer, if for no other reason the horrific reality that we will all be annihilated one day. Everything beautiful in the world will be taken from us. Our existence will end. So happiness is not our default state, or even where we SHOULD get to. Why would it be?
There are certainly people who need intervention before they suicide, and people with real chemical imbalances (for people prescribed meds - -is this EVER proven scientifically? EEG? blood test?), but we conflate those people with others who are just very rightfully sad about the circumstances in their lives. Often these people (alcohol, food, drugs, phone) instead of making the difficult changes.
Also I feel that I need to add that there are different personalities, and disorders of personality. In a lot of cases the narcissistic usually comes on top exploiting and causing depression and insecurities in others. I don’t find that this type of depression is useful. And generally society is becoming more narcissistic which rises the level of distress in others and that can’t be easily fixed.
Sometimes your life is actually great and the failure is in your perception. See the unreasonable effectiveness of applying basic rationality to your thinking, i.e. CBT.
Relief from depression is not happiness, it’s neutrality, the space to work, and the ability to feel the fruits of your work.
Care should also be taken to have a society that builds for the success of all, and helps to place individuals within good situations. The help from a drug to fix a temporary problem or a genetic disease might still be required but it isn't a one shot magic bullet.
You'd be surprised how many drug and gambling abuse spirals start with people being left by their s/o's. Back when I worked in bars, everyone with a serious drinking and/or gambling issue either had a relationship falling apart or already way beyond repair.
The difference between previous times and now is that people are actually taking care about their wellbeing (partially due to feminism actively taking down the toxic masculinity "ideal" of men that don't even go to doctors when they've broken a bone, much less for mental health), and that common "self therapy" strategies ranging from alcoholism over hard drug abuse to domestic violence are not as accepted in culture as they have been before.
Why should those things make you suffer? Desire causes suffering, if you don't desire to live forever, then not living forever doesn't cause suffering. Reactions to events cause suffering, if you don't see yourself as the center of the world, if you don't see the world as a separate and spiteful active agency, then you don't see things being "taken from you". If you don't value only the beautiful things, then you don't suffer from your imbalanced views.
Why WOULDN'T happiness be your default state? There's nothing you can do which carries you beyond the grave, there's nothing you can build which changes anything, you can't remove bad things from the world, you can't change other people, there's no obligation to do anything, and no reason to be sad about unchangable facts.
It's the learned state that you are in a competition to maximise property and money, that fame matters, that being thin or rich or pretty defines your worth, that you are important and deserve everlasting healthy youthful life, that the world isn't good enough, that are not the default state and bring suffering.
> "That ain't illness, it's normal"
When everyone has cancer, cancer will stop being an illness?
> "but we conflate those people with others who are just very rightfully sad about the circumstances in their lives. Often these people (alcohol, food, drugs, phone) instead of making the difficult changes."
And? What's wrong with helping people who aren't ill? What's wrong with helping people make difficult changes? What's wrong with supporting people who will benefit from support, helping everyone climb as high as they can with teamwork, instead of behaving like insurance companies and looking for every loophole to get out of doing that?
[Edit: downvoter, you didn't even have time to read this between me clicking submit, then edit, before downvoting :rolleyes:]
Here's an FT article about Blackpool, a deprived seaside town in the north of England. It has the highest unemployment rate, some of the lowest life expectancy, highest rate of prescription of antidepressants, and highest rate of hard drug abuse (heroin and spice) in the country:
"Happiness has nothing on the overcompensations for misery" - Huxley
If you're sad for a good/known reason you probably won't feel the need to overcompensate.
Edit: I do not mean to say people who don't meet this criteria aren't depressed in any way shape or form.
Roughly speaking of course
It was absolutely shocked at the time. But in hindsight the frequency with which I considered ending my life should have been a clue.
You might consider if you fit with "complex PTSD" or "childhood emotional neglect". This seems common among high-achieving tech people.
That was such a huge insight to me that I still struggle with it almost 15 years later.
It's like a Fish out of the fishbowl moment, discovering that other peoples inner dialogue can be so much more positive.
Depression _can_ be a function of the environment, but it's still not "sad". Sad is a healthy, appropriate emotion. Depression is a numbness that makes it difficult to even feel sadness.
To delete depression rather than addressing the root causes seems strange and inhuman.
Often it means adjusting unrealistic expectations. Like if I'm sad because I'm not a famous movie star. You could either make me a movie star, or make me accept that this is very likely not going to happen, and that's OK.
Nothing inhuman about that.
Ignoring the fact that you're sad because you're not a famous movie star and giving you a happy pill is the inhuman step.
It's the old adage in spades: "Give someone a fish and they'll eat for a day; teach them to fish and they'll eat for the rest of their life."
Happiness in pill form is not happiness.
https://www.psycom.net/depression-definition-dsm-5-diagnosti...
From outside US, it is quiiite noticeable that a lot of age-old philosophical and societal problems have been converted into personal problems that are supposedly solved by “pills” or “therapy” (that is as uniform and easily applicable as taking pills). Despite the pace of scientific and technological progress, people don't change so fast and evolve so quickly to have those “solved”. It is also doubtful that the rates of popular “mental health issues” have grown in recent decades the way the headlines routinely tell us. If some observer told you he had been seeing more and more people with four hands and two heads, you'd suppose that he had actually been getting more and more drunk. It is possible that the system that categorizes those issues is not up to the task.
Partially, it's because everything is a nail if you have a hammer. Drugs exist, patients know that and want them, doctors know that and prescribe them, the wheels are rolling, and it's sure hard to swim up the current. Whether they do work is not that important, people have always had talismans, and strong feelings about them (just look at the global mask wearing hassle).
Partially, it's because modern education is still based on positivism, scientism, and mechanicism of XIX century, but it is very rarely stated clearly. Even “critical” disciplines take a lot of things for granted. On this very page, people write about DNA this and DNA that, neurotransmitters this and neurotransmitters that, and it's implied that they'd tend to explain the world that way. Despite the origins of these terms, it is easy to see that they are used in the same way celestial signs were used to describe the initial state of a person, and imbalance of humors was used to reason about the immediate state of a person. The physical effects of, say, a bullet flying into someone's body can be studied and understood, and surgeons do treat these wounds, but it would be stupid to only describe the problem at that level without asking how and why bullets are actually shot.
Partially, it's because the image of the world presented to a person — not just by media, but also by familiar, decent, like-minded people — is skewed, and many have to over-correct into the opposite direction to balance it. Some ever-important matters are suppressed and rarely discussed in societies that consider themselves free and well organized, and the assumed path to “success” in life won't admit everyone even in theory. Not so long ago, only nobles had an option to care about having the biggest rubies in their jewelry, but now, thanks to progress, everyone can be a small noble and worry about countless new trifles. The generated noise hinders the uncovering of what lies beneath.
All in all, the “depression” might not be the term that needs a more precise or extensive definition. It might be a swept heap of everything that is not defined.
The entire concept of "boredom" to him is a state of unease brought on by the modern working lifestyle. "Depression" is really a healthy, normal response to horrible conditions that we've adjusted to, like a fish that doesn't realize he's surrounded by water.
[0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Unabomber-Manifest...
> It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Jiddu Krishnamurti
I've been looking at other people only to see how happy they are and how content they with their life. They feel motivated, want something from life and in generally think that being alive is alright, which I just couldn't internalize no matter how hard I tried.
Essentially, I've come to the conclusion that there _must_ be something wrong with my neurotransmitters that I just can't be happy as fellow friends around me.
Many doctor appointments, many different prescriptions.
Antidepressants did their job and I started to care less about what's going on, but they didn't make me any happier. They just made me less miserable. On the other side, I've started to see the world through some kind of fog, which blocked most of my previous perception. My long-term memory started to degradate.
Now, after many years of taking various SSRIs I'm beginning to realize, that there's nothing wrong with my brain.
That's perhaps who I am, maybe either percepting more than many people around or just more sensetive and therefore reacting stronger even on slightest stimulus in a much stronger ways. I have opinions and thougts on a topics that many do not even care about.
So instead of supressing thoughts and emotions I must accept them as they are.
I am depressive and pessimistic by nature, too. I have accepted that. But I have to fix the extremes because otherwise I simply can't function.
Different drugs can literally make you feel and think like a different person.
The only problem is side effects and tolerance, you can't go on on drugs for very long. They can be invaluable for building different habits, though.
Gabapentin works really well for me, though I have to stop taking it for a week every month, so that's 2-3 days of insomnia and nightmares. Technically I'm not supposed to, but then I'd have to increase the dosage to what I consider unacceptable levels. Tapering off also works, though.
CBD/THC (only with a low dose of alcohol) also works well, but I don't like the side effects (lower mental acuity, plus my already bad attention goes rock bottom), so it's more of an occasional thing.
Doctors are really inflexible in what they can give me, so I have to make do. SSRI's just don't work on me, except for imipramine, but that's really temporary.
And out of 100 friends, if 5-10 post something cool it’s easy to overlook that the other 90-95 didn’t.
fB is but an example. These effects happen more or less with everything.
I’ve rebelled against this for a long time. I post happy things here and there but since my life isn’t particularly happy, I post the more upsetting things more frequently and express those feelings in real life. I like to think I’m adding balance but I know I’m just being ignored because the culture doesn’t like to hear about suffering.
Yeah, because it’s bloody depressing.
You get what your mind focuses on and if people actively look for depressing topics it’s no wonder they’re all doom and gloom.
That’s why people don’t want to hear it - because it affects your psychology.
I will actively run from people who lead negative lives, that complain about things but never lift a finger to make anything better. I refuse to be sucked into their pits of despair because I know there is good in the world, and I want to be part of that, focus my mind and attention and energy on leaving things slightly better than when I found it.
I will try to help ppl where I can but the truth is a lot of people are lazy and don’t want to change. So I leave them with my thoughts and know that I have done my piece.
I’m not saying this is directly attributable to your experience, simply relaying the way I feel to give you insight into perhaps a different mindset and way of seeing things.
And being a pessimist is not a problem that should be medicated. The world needs us!!
I ask because your description sounds spot on for how I have felt throughout life. The 'fog', lack of motivation, and sensitivity to even the slightest stimulus especially ring true. When I first took medication for ADD, I felt like I had been driving through a downpour my whole life and finally discovered the window-wipers - the storm didn't stop, but I could finally look forward and see my goals and desires clearly. Every few weeks I try to do a reset and test how I feel without medication and I definitely still feel that 'fog' that you mention. I would say my fog is more like being in a lightning storm, because I feel the constant 'patter' of thoughts hitting my subconscious (for lack of a better word), but the occasional lightning strike will pull my attention completely away from everything else momentarily.
If you want to learn more, I highly recommend looking through the ADHD subreddit[0] - especially the sidebar material.
There's so much more to ADHD than that though. I'm smart enough that I never struggled academically, and wasn't hyperactive enough to cause significant enough disruption in the classroom, so externally it was never picked up that I might have ADHD. But now that I'm aware of it, I've come to realise how significant of an impact it's had in my life, all the self-destructive and self-sabotaging behaviour, the instability of my relationships, the abuse of drugs and alcohol, the lack of internal motivation, emotional hypersensitivity, a lack of emotional and object permanence, and more. I could go on for days (and have) about the less obvious effects and symptoms of ADHD.
The concept of "hyperfocus" as a symptom of ADHD is relatively recent idea. It didn't appear in any medical literature for a long time. The first appearance I could find was in some author's book about ADHD, which wasn't even targeted at medical professionals.
It might be a symptom for some people, but misinterpreting it as a symptom of ADHD leaves the door wide open for misdiagnosis and over-diagnosis. When we start diagnosis a disorder notorious of lack of attention in people who demonstrate an abundance of attention, there's a problem.
The pop-psychology definition of ADHD is so broad that it's rare to find an HN commenter who hasn't self-diagnosed as maybe having ADHD at some point in their lives.
As you said, pathological ADHD (as diagnosed by a medical professional) can have a severe impact on people's lives. It's best that we leave the diagnosis to professionals and not give people the impression that the regular ups and downs of focus (studying/focus/mental endurance is work for everyone) are indicators of a mental health disorder.
Hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD, ASD, and schizophrenia [1]. So a person who experiences hyperfocus may be experiencing one or more of those conditions. (Although, when I say "symptom", not necessarily a diagnostic one – conditions can have both diagnostic symptoms, which form part of the diagnostic criteria, and non-diagnostic symptoms, which don't, but nonetheless have been commonly observed clinically and/or in research in those formally diagnosed.)
Since it is possible to have subclinical manifestations of psychiatric diagnoses, a person who experiences hyperfocus without meeting the diagnostic criteria for any of these diagnoses may have such a subclinical manifestation of one or more of them. The formal name for subclinical ASD is "Broad Autism Phenotype" (BAP) [2]; I don't think subclinical ADHD [3] or subclinical schizophrenia [4] have distinctive names, but both have been researched. (A lot of people who incorrectly self-diagnose themselves as having X despite not actually meeting the diagnostic criteria, may in fact be correctly identifying the existence of subclinical traits of X in themselves.)
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31541305/
[2] e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5949081/
[3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01918...
Inattention in ADHD has always been the lack of ability to appropriately direct attention, not the absence of attention to anything.
While “hyperfocus” by name is a fairly recent association, at least as far back as the DSM III-R ADHD has included both tendency to be easily distracted by extraneous stimuli (inability to maintain appropriate attention) and that of not having attention drawn by stimulus that should draw it (appearing not to listen.)
Hyperfocus is simply the latter.
The article is right that "chemical imbalance" is a myth as there's no sort of blood tests or normative chemical ranges for any of these mental conditions that people get diagnosed because they are outside of. A quick Google search would show there's no scientific support for chemical imbalance theory, just some pills that affect brain chemicals that people report depression improvement on self-reported survey so a huge, unscientific leap is made that depression is some chemical shortage in the brain. All the psychiatrist diagnoses are basically glorified personality tests, and the criteria are based on the DSM-5 which was made closed door and with heavy influence from pharmaceutical company lobbying.
Mental health is probably one of the most complex aspects of health, things like placebo have a huge impact, it's hard to study, and there's huge bias introduced by a for-profit pharmaceutical industry that pushes treatments to pills.
The field of psychiatry is not that scientific, it's not so long ago it was forcing people into lobotomies and I see the unscientific rush to diagnose everyone into these boxes of depression and ADHD as a similar gaffe that will be looked back on poorly.
I am diagnosed with GAD, ADHD, and bipolar type 1 and I'm doing MUCH better since I went against-medical-advice and quit all meds. For bipolar disorder/anxiety, meditation, yoga, exercise, sobriety, journaling are my key treatments. Mindfulness is key, but not the Hacker News McMindfulness variety where you try to emulate a celebrity monk from Tibet so you can reach Zen all so you can write more code for your startup.
For ADHD, meditation, techniques like pomodoro, and most importantly, just accepting that maybe it's better to achieve less peak productivity than take prescription amphetamines.
I just wanted to provide some counter-perspective as someone who's followed advice like yours much to my detriment.
I recently did a ~7 day liquid elemental diet [0], followed by a 3 day fast, and at the end of the fast I was more mentally acute and more lucid or "present" than I have ever felt in my life.
The results were far better than any medication or treatment I've ever tried. Unfortunately, re-feeding brought me back to the same state I've known for all of my life.
[0] - https://www.siboinfo.com/uploads/5/4/8/4/5484269/homemade_el...
Meditation and yoga do nothing for me. Seeing a counsellor has been good though, and I think that its something that everybody should do, regardless of neurotype or how well they appear to be functioning in life.
I've seen it first hand. Child is beautiful and active and happy and sad and angry and living and the Mother just can't handle it and BAM - drugs.
Child grows up, becomes a teenager. Prescription drugs stop. Teenage moves to Methamphetamine, start cooking. Eventually is busted and jailed.
The connection, for me, is clear.
I feel very very lucky that I grew up before the ADHD diagnosis was a thing as I could have easily been that child.
It's unfortunate that it's often the case that psychiatric help is only sought for "problem children", who negatively impact those around them. These are the kids that get "easily distracted and distracts others" on all their report cards.
Well behaved children with ADHD (generally those with inattentive-type) tend to have their poor academic performance written off as laziness or stupidity. Their report cards tend to say "has great potential, if only he would apply himself"
Unfortunately, it's common just to give kids some pills to settle them down, especially when therapy is expensive or resource limited, without helping them learn healthy coping mechanisms and management strategies.
Often as they grow older, they become less hyperactive, which leads to the belief that they've "grown out" of their ADHD. There's a common misconception (even amongst doctors) that ADHD is a children's disease, when in fact up to 2/3 of children with ADHD carry it through to adulthood. I have friends who went to their GP and were straight up told that they couldn't have ADHD as they're adults.
Therapy should be the first-line strategy for treating children with ADHD, with medication being an alternative or supplemental treatment. Otherwise you end up with adults who never learned healthy management strategies as children, as the medication suppressed the need to learn them. Then as they "grow out" of their ADHD, they're taken off medication and are unable to function as effective members of society.
Treatment of ADHD without medication needs action accommodations from the school, teachers, friends, boy scouts and parents. And it‘s not possible for every parent and every school.
If you feel emotionally numb because of the stimulants your dose is probably too high and it should be adjusted.
But I agree with you. The treatment can‘t be just a pill. It needs at least to be a pill and education for the involved parties. And especially education for the patient. So they can adjust their treatment and lifestyle according to their needs.
I agree that we should be focusing more in individualized treatment and not attempting to adjust everyone to some averaged version of 'normal'. Tbh, if I could find a way to live comfortably in a profession that I enjoyed, which didn't also require 'neurotypical' focus, I would drop the medication as well. I do enjoy being able to focus on things which would normally be near impossible for me otherwise, but I certainly feel less creative and mentally adroit when medicated. It's a difficult trade-off at times, but in my current circumstances, it's one I simply have to make, as nothing else works(including meditation, pomodoro, etc.).
In any case, it makes me happy to hear that you have found a solution that works for you.
Have you read about sensory processing sensitivity/highly sensitive people?
https://taaalk.co/t/discussing-eating-disorders
https://taaalk.co/t/exploring-obsessive-compulsive-disorder
Would you like to do one to see if anything comes up? Kind of a public anonymous therapy session...
https://taaalk.co/t/invite/what-s-going-on-with-dukha, invite code: 314798825
(If anyone else is interested my email is in my profile)
-Fred Rogers
Personally I would absolutely consider persistent misery, or experiencing extreme sadness over minor things, to be a clear proof that there is something wrong with my brain. Whether I treat that with therapy or medication, I think that is very much worth treating, and definitely not worth simply accepting.
I think you are making the assumption that it is treatable, or that the treatment advantages outweigh the disadvantages, which is not always the case.
I think there is a general over-subscription to the idea that everything can be treated or optimized. Some diseases are incurable and sometimes a personal optimal is still poor compared to average.
Some people (normal people if you will) just don't think too much about things. Even when they sometimes go on to make terrible choices for themselves, and others, they might regret it, they might have negative thoughts about it, but they don't become depressed. They are not inclined to ruminating hours on end about their mistakes, so the negative thoughts dissipate over time, they effectively move on.
But if your personality, or brain, or whatever, is made in such a way that you like to think a lot about what could have been, or could be, or how to behave, or what others think of you, any kind of negative thought you might have will stay around, eventually leading to (symptoms of) depression.
So I think you're right when you say that depression is not what's wrong with you. You might just be one of those people that are good at thinking. Perhaps sometimes a little too good at thinking, a little too sensitive. Being sensitive and good at thinking is not be a bad thing at all, but spending too much time having negative thoughts may be what leads to depression.
If this is the case, realizing that you have a choice, in what to think about, is an important step on improving the quality of life, perhaps even learning to life with, or overcome some of the symptoms of anxiety and depression. Accept the negative thoughts, they are just natural thoughts after all, but choose not to dwell on them, let them pass and move on to the next thought, it might be a positive one.
You may also find some inspiration in metacognitive therapy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognitive_therapy).
For the most part this is good, but of course, not all memories are created equal. Sometimes this process of forming connections reminds me of a painful event, something I'd rather not think about.
At first it was frustrating when these memories surfaced repeatedly. I'd dwell on some embarassing thing I'd done, or some painful thing a friend had said to me, which they maybe didn't realize I'd taken so hard. It was tempting to analyze these events to death, and have silent conversations with these figments, as though I could go back and phrase it differently, or change my actions, and perhaps it would have gone better.
Eventually, however, I realized that these mental tasks were not productive. The event, the "danger" had already passed. So now, whenever I realize my mind is about to go down that path, when suddenly I am reminded of a painful event, we pause, my brain and I. "Do we really need to go down this road again? We know where it leads. Let's not."
And so we don't. We reach once again into the stream of thought, allow ourselves to dwell on some happier moment, and in time, that old memory fades and we're off on a different adventure.
I know it's not an illusion because I very rapidly become dour & flat when I let my diet or exercise slip.
For instance, find a therapist to talk with. Don't feel like you need to settle for the first one you find, find one that feels right to you. It could be that there are deep rooted thoughts or emotions that actually are unhealthy that you may want to get to the bottom of. The goal here isn't change, it's understanding... and through understanding, determine if there's anything you'd like to change or even embrace. For example, I tend to focus on the negatives and everything wrong with the world. I realized I picked these behaviors up from my mother which not only allows me to be more aware of my behavior, but also helps me gently guide conversations with her away from being so negative and help her find positive things in her life.
Psychedelics often come up in these conversations, as well. I know many people whom see their experiences with psychedelics as turning points for them. There's plenty out research out there on the subject that I won't rehash here. If you choose to go down this route, I'd suggest doing your own research and if it seems like something you'd like to try do so in a safe place with one or more persons you feel safe around. Preferably, have an experienced "guide" there with you.
Lastly, I've been digging into the subject of gratitude for awhile now - both giving and receiving. There's a lot of research indicating it can be quite powerful. I tend to focus on the negative and everything that's wrong with the world (or my job, or my partner). Sometimes, just setting aside time to stop and think about something or someone you're grateful for (and especially communicating that) can do wonders. This isn't about not having or getting rid of pessimistic thoughts - it's about finding conscious space for appreciation, which can help balance things out or just help find some sparks of joy that might otherwise get drowned out by the negativity.
We're all on our own journey. Embrace who you are and try to take in the sights along the way.
But I do very often wonder if and what is the objective purpose of life, and having thought of it for a long time, I came to the conclusion that there are no such objective purpose.
The goal of life is entirely subjective, while the achievement/advancement of the goal is grounded in logic and hard work, the goal itself is not.
So a failure to transmit or receive sufficient chemical stimulus in the brain describes a failure of hardware that may or may not be correctable with drugs. Because we live in a culture of convenience it is common to misrepresent a difference of personality as a defect correctable with a drug, which may explain the drive to consume and abuse stimulants.
Some people, myself, literally enjoy working 80+ hours a weeks with less sleep and without preconditions, like increased compensation. Many people see that as bizarre and wonder where the increased energy and focus come from. It’s not a product of increased energy or focus, but really just a minor difference of personal interest and emotional concerns. Stimulants won’t buy you a necessary change of personal goals or the necessary continuous interest of where you value your time, and certainly won’t buy you enjoyment of working 80+ hours a week. Instead people tend to be most productive where they naturally find increased output due to personal interests whether that’s just from spending time with other people or reading literature.
That’s the difference personal interests (personality) make which is not any indication of defect. There is a famous quote: “Know thyself”. The reflection to that is know what you are not or rather don’t lie to yourself.
It seems that lots of very smart people take these drugs and I wonder how many are emotionally and spiritually stunted by them.
It's hard to come to any conclusions here, but it does seem like for me, the issue was at least partly chemical.
However, I'll say that a lot of why I got to a point where I could even make the dietary changes, was that I had done a lot of emotional and psychological work. The reason I was interested when I saw the vlog, and read the paper, and made the dietary changes, was that I had done a lot of work to learn to even care about myself.
For me, there has been a feedback loop--learning to care about myself has allowed me to discover tools to improve my brain chemistry, which in turn is now allowing me to care about myself better and do more for myself (and others). I don't think that just giving people the right food or medicines to fix their brain chemistry would work if they don't see themselves as worth making the life changes for.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPi41bSrFdI
For me I've found that my happiness is mostly a function of the community of people I'm surrounded with. This means having a solid group of friends and/or significant other. It's very tough to find this, especially in the U.S. when you're already an "adult" and didn't make many friends in your childhood/university years, but it is possible.
But that's just me, others don't need much social contact. Everyone is different. But for any software engineers like me who find that staring at a computer all day does little for their happiness, you are definitely not alone.
Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences.
Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why.
All of that changed after going on Prozac. I don't know why, and I've heard from many others that Prozac was harmful to them. But from my point of view, it was nothing short of a lifechanging miracle. I can't remember the last time I've had suicidal ideation.
Most people keep this sort of thing quiet, and I think silence is part of the problem. When I was younger, I might have looked down on someone for saying what I just said. When you have a broken leg, everyone notices and can relate; when you have a broken mind, no one can see it, and so no one can feel sympathy, let alone empathy.
So what's the takeaway here? One: do not lose hope. I came very close to losing hope, and it would have denied me so much. Two: make a doctor's appointment. There's a chance that you'll wind up on something that makes the situation worse; you need to make a followup appointment ahead of time.
Support networks only got me so far.
SSRIs are some of the most widely-used medications. Tens of millions of people in the United States alone use SSRIs regularly with good results.
No medication is perfect, obviously, and at scale we're bound to see a percentage of people have negative experiences. The problem is that when tens of millions of people have tried SSRIs, even 1% significantly negative reactions adds up to a very large number of people. If 1% of those negative reactions make a point of blasting their negative experience all over the internet, we'll see thousands of negative reports everywhere.
Combine this with the fact that few people are willing to publicly admit that SSRIs helped them, and the bias toward negative reviews online is huge.
SSRIs are a particularly difficult topic, because they have a noticeable treatment lag (can take up to 1-2 months for positive effects, with positive effects increasing up to 6 months out) and can, in some cases, temporarily worsen symptoms during the initial ramp-up period.
Even more difficult, not all SSRIs are the same. It might take 2-3 trials before someone finds the SSRI that works best for them. It might also take several dose adjustments to find the right tradeoff between efficacy and side effects. Unfortunately, many people go online and seek out horror stories before they have a chance to go through a few rounds of medication adjustments to make it work for them.
Thanks for sharing your positive success story online. SSRIs aren't for everyone, but it would be a shame for people to spend years suffering from depression when a few SSRI trials might reveal an easy improvement to their lives. Worst case, they can taper off (tapering helps avoid discontinuation effects) and move on to different treatment avenues.
Some of the other contraindications (for the disparate group in that 1% you mentioned) are still important to mention, I think.
If you're not certain you'll always have health insurance. If you may ever want to try MDMA therapy, or just about any type of psychedelic therapy (or use them recreationally). If you're uncomfortable with being on something like this super long term and/or are concerned about withdrawal issues. If you can't stand the thought of risking becoming a happy-ish, functional zombie with no sexual interest in your partner. If you're worried the doctor won't diagnose you correctly. If you're not sure you can emotionally handle going through potentially a year or more of trial & error and having to wait months each time for results. Then think twice.
I am extremely glad for the people SSRIs have saved, especially those who wouldn't have made it otherwise. It is also incredibly clear to me that despite my continuing issues with depression, they are probably the wrong approach for me.
The SSRI Lexapro [0] helped my girlfriend relapse on cocaine, before i met her. Cocaine is a much stronger anti-depressant than the SSRI's due to its effects as a Mono-Amine Oxidase Inhibitor [2] (1st generation anti-depressants).
Eventually the professionals figured out she is a poor methylator, and can't convert folic acid into Folate. Folate (Vitamin B9) is important for DNA synthesis. Food companies fortify with folic acid because it's more stable than other forms of Vitamin B9, even though we now know that some people are harmed by this fortification [1]. On the whole, fortification seems to be beneficial (fewer deformed babies), but poor methylators and old people seem to have negative side effects from getting their vitamin B9 from folic acid.
She said adding the L-Methyl-Folate was like flipping a switch between "depressed" and "normal". Her involuntary medical professionals didn't say, "hey sorry we made a mistake, you're not actually broken", and continue to ignore the actual causes of her condition.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escitalopram
[1] https://now.tufts.edu/articles/folic-acid-too-much-good-thin... / https://www.futurity.org/folic-acid-too-much-of-a-good-thing...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor
(edit - added bit about cocaine being an MAOI)
I have a hard time keeping track of where I read what; I haven't found a source on a cursory search.
If I could add anything to the SSRI topic it would be that mental health treatment is incomplete without a form a therapy. If a person's treatment plan includes SSRIs, that's great, but it should always include therapy.
Arguably for low to moderate depressive disorders there hasn't been conclusive evidence that psychiatric prescriptions work, however there IS conclusive evidence that for major depression the benefits are at a minimum "small" and up to "substantial" ([4],[5]).
So as soon as we discuss depression, everyone might mean something different. It's a sad state of affairs because now people think they're talking about the same things but they're really not - they just happen to have had different psychiatrists who assessed things and behaved perhaps differently, and where one might have really mostly needed therapy and the other both therapy and antidepressants, in the end everyone went home with a prescription for the fancy SSRI of the year. Psychiatrists as a whole need to reevaluate the rate of prescriptions, the tools to assess major depressive disorder, and the actual array of treatments that are available to them.
I've had wrong diagnoses. I've had appointments that my doctors missed without rescheduling even though I was there. I've had those 15-minutes-and-you're-out meetings with a psychiatrist, whose prescriptions for what conveniently is the "newest pill" were given along with free samples until one day you have to pay for something you can't afford or switch treatment and deal with weeks of uncertainty, and so on.
I have been saved from death and cycles of immense self-destruction by a healthy relationship with a knowledgeable and experienced psychiatrist willing to take me, when my legal troubles had by then reduced my options and driven me further to the edge. Some real discussions, a carefully explained switch from SSRI to RIMA, which worked. "Is that what it is to feel somewhat normal? I can't believe people feel like that most of the time!!"
It allowed me to truly know what therapy is, because there was more to the day than being unconscious or wanting to be dead or death-by-proxy. Therapy gave out some tools to live and interact in a healthy way with myself and others, and to seek more tools too.
The struggle still exists entirely and comes back in heavy waves some days. A lot more difficulties are now an inherent part of my life and rebuilding things will take time and struggles. But psychiatric treatment gave me legs I had lost for nearly all of my life, and therapy taught me to walk again, and I'm well intent on walking out of everything I fell into - regardless of how long and arduous the path is. And whenever I'm able to, to take others out of the pit too.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin%E2%80%93norepinephri...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine_reuptake_inhibi...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricyclic_antidepressant
Which was a literal lifesaver, because the first SSRI I took gave me severe stomach pains. I spent at least 2 hours every night spitting into the dorm room sink with the lights out.
Instead of quitting, I knew to ask for a different SSRI. I also knew to switch therapists when the first one just talked at me the whole time. I then got one who listened a lot at first, then started challenging things I said after we had some trust.
And one more helpful thing J knew: medication was like a crutch. And, despite that usually being a negative metaphor, I saw it as a positive. If you break your leg, you use a crutch while it heals. Your treatment should be the crutch (meds) and therapy. The therapy works better when you can think better.
I ended up not needing my meds anymore. I still have overall flattened affect and bouts of depression, but I can deal with them. To torture the metaphor, it's like having a slight limp from the broken leg. I'll never be "back to normal" but still find life worth living.
One thing to watch out for with Prozac is diminishing sensitivity in the nether regions, that's probably the biggest reason I tried a few others and transitioned to another medication.
It's not accurate to say that it's "incredibly rare". Most people can expect at least some dosage adjustments, if not a few trials of different medications.
However, most people will see some improvements from any antidepressant treatment, even if it's not full remission. Getting to full remission is the challenge that requires fine-tuning.
Practically speaking, antidepressant medication shouldn't be viewed as a one-stop solution to depression treatment. It should be used as a larger treatment regimen involving therapy (ideally professional, but even self-directed with books is helpful) and lifestyle changes to identify and address the source of the problems.
As such, even a minor boost from an antidepressant can help move a person in the right direction, even if it isn't a one-stop cure for the depression. We need to collectively get past this idea that antidepressants are an all-or-nothing cure all and start viewing them as an adjunct to getting back on your feet and staying there.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Both my psych and GP said it generally takes at least three different medications to find one that's effective for someone.
Depression and anxiety are nasty. I was surprised to learn they are symptoms of parasites. They've evolved in such a way that they can manipulate the host into craving foods that are beneficial for them (not for the host). Symptoms among others include anxiety, depression and irritability.
Do you mean to say you had depression for a few months (with anxiety on top) ?
The liver flush I did involved a morning celery and lemon juice. 5 light meals. 1L of apple juice spread throughout the day. After dinner a glass of water with epsom salts (tastes like pool water but has epic muscle relaxing effects so amazing sleeps) and psylium husk. On day six involves some more epsom salts, then drinking half a glass of olive oil with lemon juice. There's more to it but you can find this protocol pretty easily. Its quite common to pass a lot of stones in stool the next day which is old bile that has been hardened after being purged from the liver. It's important to check you don't have gall stones before doing the liver flush. An ultrasound will tell.
In terms of parasites I cant say 100% but combantrin works on 4 main types (mostly parasitic worms) [1]. There's also liver flukes which seemed to be explain some symptoms.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gallstones/ex...
It wasn't until the late 1800s that the miasma theory of disease was overturned in acceptance by germ theory. At some point in the next century, computers will become powerful enough to closely simulate the entire human body. We'll be able to hook up our bodies and compare them to a common model in a sort of "debugging" process. I think what we'll find is a diverse host of viruses and parasites, or other curable abnormalities that are responsible for mental health problems.
The GP I saw suggested Lexapro which I’ve taken before and it’s not for me. I told him the problem had a strong correlation to food; if I fasted I didn’t get these thoughts. Doctors look at you weird when you say you think asparagus is driving you mad. He just sort of ignored me, I think the fact I saw him right after the pandemic hit just made him assume I was depressed and anxious because of the lockdown.
The really crazy thing to me is that Nexium has basically made the problem go away (Prilosec worked but wasn’t quite as good) I saw a GI specialist and he showed me the low FODMAP elimination diet and suggested I eat low FODMAP foods and that has helped it the rest of the way. So crazy how much our gut can affect our mood and psychological profile.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-con...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schi...
Sounds like you have some enzyme defect. Do you know any specifics?
Prior to allergy testing I got really obsessed and into probiotics, lifehacking etc just to make myself feel better and I feel like nothing really helped my GI problems which always feel like they're sapping the energy out of my entire body. Turns out a huge portion of my problems were food allergies.
I haven't gone full FODMAPS but I eat much more keto/paleo nowadays when I can (I've been loose since quarantine) and feel so much better when I do. Meat and lettuce is my prime meal now.
IIRC it was either stupid cheap or covered by insurance. I was a little annoyed my parents didn't take me in when I was younger for it.
It was completely hassle-free and maybe 30 minutes.
Now when I eat pizza with tomato sauce and start scratching my arms and my mouth is burnt and my stomach is destroyed and I have wild brain fog for 3 days I finally know why! Not sure how I never equated it before, I always thought it was the bread and never got gluten tested (could still contribute, but I'm not going through that test).
This is a dogs results but my results looked similar, I just had a food section; https://i.servimg.com/u/f11/18/49/47/07/kyeall11.jpg
This is anything but crazy. It has been well known for a very long time and is very well supported.
This to me hints at the effect of Prozac possibly being far more complex than “chemical imbalance”. I’ve never found that terminology that useful. Fixing my depression required a lot of chemical changes yes, but also major changes in my voluntary behavior. All of it was connected in an intricate tapestry and Prozac only plays one part. If I tapered off Prozac, I suspect I would still be happy, but I don’t know that my depression would have ever resolved properly without Prozac. The side effects are mild so I am in no rush to discontinue.
Those who do take it seriously but are not strong enough to bear, end up joining cults.
I've had times in my life when I certainly didn't constantly distract myself, and being of a contemplative type, sometimes also delved into existential thoughts. But I didn't automatically (or generally) feel angst about it.
I'm not religious and haven't been since I was 15 or so. (I don't deny possibly having something of a mildly spiritual side, but I consider that different as it doesn't require belief in anything other than various kinds of feelings and experiences being part of the human experience. It also doesn't provide an externally assigned meaning.)
In times when my mental health and wellbeing have generally been worse, existential questions have also become much more distressing.
So yeah, maybe for some or even many people, existential questions may amount to angst, but in my experience it has depended a lot more on my other emotional and psychological state.
The realization that thoughts think themselves was one of the most profound moments of my life.
Identification with your thoughts is a recipe for unhappiness.
An evil pharma company recently got their version of allopregnanolone approved to treat postpartum depression. Cost of treatment: $34,000. It's cheaper to go upstream: progesterone, pregnenolone, or figure out why the body is having trouble making pregnenolone from cholesterol... Vitamin A? Thyroid?
One theory of why women experience postpartum depression is that their progesterone levels "fall off a cliff" after they give birth. In theory supplementing progesterone would help postpartum depression better than allopregnanolone. No one can afford to do that study because there'd be no pay off, as all the important patents have expired.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone
[1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allopregnanolone+fluoxe...
I was always sad, and saw little meaning in my life, or in life at all, really. I cried lot. I frequently fantasised about killing myself, though I never got close to actually doing so.
I never talked about the way I felt. I felt ashamed, and I felt that people wouldn't understand - I've often heard "normal" people talk of how depressed people should "man up" or "get over it". Over the years, I got very good at hiding my true feelings. AFAIK, nobody ever guessed.
Maybe 5 years ago I started taking 5-HTP, which I believe has an SSRI effect (but one that is more short lived than pharmaceutical SSRIs). I actually started taking it for another reason (neuropathic pain, which has of course not helped with depression!), as I'd never considered treating the way I felt with chemicals, but within a few weeks the difference in me was incredible - I realised I hadn't cried in a while, and hadn't felt the immense lows that I felt every couple of weeks or so.
I still take 200mg twice a day, and get immense benefit from it - it's not a cure by a long shot, but after a lifetime of feeling miserable, the change is amazing. I seldom cry for no reason, and I rarely experience extreme lows (and when I do, they are less severe and shorter lived).
More recently I also started taking ketamine for my neuropathic pain, but it's actually further enhanced the anti-depressive actions.
I've tried SNRIs and SSRIs for my neuropathic pain, but am unable to tolerable them. If anyone else is in the same position, I'd very strongly recommend reading about 5-HTP and thinking about trying it. If you've tried SSRIs and they've failed for you, then it might be worth looking into ketamine (though I realise that may not be an option depending on where you live).
ADD drugs obviously get abused and so I think they get a bad reputation and, for sure, can be dangerous and have side effects.
Same goes for pain medication. For real, genuine, chronic pain sufferers Oxycontin and the others are life changing. However, the drugs also get abused and are addicting so the real benefits can get masked.
The last thing i'll say is it takes a disciplined prescriber when dealing with these kinds of drugs. As software engineers, I'm sure we're all guilty of just throwing code at a problem. Many prescribers are guilty of just throwing Adderall at a problem or throwing Oxycontin at a problem without really understanding the root issue.
This hits home and almost moved me to tears. I went through a trauma about 3 years ago, I was Kidnapped/abducted from a gas station at gun point and was forced to drive my attacker for nearly 30 minutes at gun point under threat of death before opening the door and diving out of my moving vehicle to escape. During that experience I considered purposely crashing my car believing it would kill both me and my attacker, but I wanted to live and ultimately took my chances diving onto the street from the moving car knowing I might get run over.
I can’t explain it other than I know I should have been thankful/grateful/happy I escaped with my life, but I knew immediately the trauma was real and sure enough it has been a downward spiral of cutting off every single relationship in my life and extreme isolation/avoidance. I’ve sought help/treatment (both therapy and meds) to no real benefit.
Even 3 years later I have to relieve the trauma because I’m suing the gas station for negligent security (turns out the guy had been loitering at the gas station for 2 hours prior to targeting me, even hanging out in the store talking to employees without ever making a purchase). The insurance attorneys are victimizing next worse than my kidnapper, they have destroyed the surveillance video, Claimed the kidnapping didn’t happen on their property (when I was literally approached while at the gas pumps), and telling me my damages aren’t real. This goes directly to your point, if I were shot they would have settled the policy limit ($2M) but because it’s not visible damages they are doing everything to claim it didn’t happen on their property, if it did they aren’t liable, and if they are liable the damages aren’t real but self inflicted. They either have no clue what kind of additional trauma they are causing or they actually do and are trying to cause me self harm so this goes away for them.
I humbly admit while I always felt for people who went through traumas (soldiers, child abuse, sexual abuse) I realize now I was incapable of actually empathizing...I won’t say I have suicidal ideations, but I often feel I’d have been better off not surviving.
In the US police have no duty to prevent crime, also the gas station is private property not public and police are not considered public security. In short just like slip and fall cases in The US, businesses owe a duty to invitees to remove foreseeable dangers such as a slippery surface (in the case of a slip and fall) or a suspicious person loitering on premises for 2 hours. They also owed a duty to preserve the video evidence but they destroyed that as well.
I have a hard time believing in Poland a business might allow a rapist to just hang out on the property and identify potential victims all while a security guard is standing by that does nothing. That said laws wildly vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction
Mental health, and any issues you have with it, are a hitch in that system. But to assume that you can fix is by only affecting one part(the internal understanding of the world) seems flawed for me. Same can be said, like in the article, of only fixing the outside understanding of the world (chemical changes).
So let me add my voice to your message, don't lose hope! We are a ball of walnuty textured jelly that tracks changes between the inside view of the world with the outside input of the world using lightning and chemicals. Its complex, hard, and the fault surface is huge.
Keep going, try new solutions, find someone one who helps you build the solution for you. But please, _try_.
For the sake of this, I post about it online on occasion when the topic comes up -- an SNRI, Effexor XR, was life-changing for me, too. I suffered from crippling anxiety; my therapist diagnosed me with generalised anxiety, social anxiety, and major depressive disorders. Cognitive-behavioural therapy helped me live me life instead of letting it be controlled by these issues, but the issues were still there, and quite intense. There were some nights it just totally overwhelmed me. On Effexor XR, that never happens. Anxiety and depression are not only no longer constantly looming over me, but they are completely gone.
However, the first thing I tried was citalopram, an SSRI. It mostly got rid of them too, but I never felt quite like 'myself'. I felt like a zombie and like a bit of my soul had been taken out. Plus it wasn't entirely effective like Effexor.
(For what it's worth -- diet, exercise, and so on were tried too. No benefit to my mental health. I've also given more time than they're worth to various supplements that people report as helping their own issues.)
I took one of the offshoots of Prozac for three months and it took my suicidal thoughts to a whole new level. For me it's all about therapy. A lot of what I'm facing is less about hormones and more about emotional trauma, so these pills are trying to fix the wrong thing. It's like fixing your breaks when the engine doesn't start. Sure, they are both parts of a car, but they couldn't be doing more different jobs.
My experience with therapy has been really eye opening. I think everyone can benefit from some form of therapy. I think the world would be a much better place if people were able to feel their emotions, explore them with curiosity, and learn from them.
Lastly, take care of yourself, friends. If you're not feeling well, please talk to a professional. They can help you.
My personal opinion having talked to doctors, therapists, and other depression sufferers is that the medical industry's treatment of depression is basically just throwing darts and hoping. They only kinda have a rough idea of how to treat some of the symptoms of depression and care not for any potential underlying causes. The "chemical imbalance" language, in my considered opinion, really does enforce this world view that depression is something you just throw drugs at until you're fixed, and I don't think that's helpful.
I don't think anybody considers this ideal, but many consider it preferable to no ability to treat at all. A world in which a deeper understanding of fundamentals enabled full treatment would be best for everyone.
It's not like nobody is trying! But setting a bone doesn't require a deep understanding of how bone knitting happens, and therefore comes well before.
That is such an arbitrary distinction. As if being "just a slacker" doesn't have a number of deeper reasons behind it as well. Brains are just machines at the end of the day, every behavior is a result of something material...
Dr. K suggests the brain is optimized for efficiency. If something is not seen by the brain as being unnecessary, then the brain is unlikely to trigger a response that motivates you to complete the task. The example used was going to the restroom - your bladder fills up and your brain tells you it's time to go. Motivation in areas of life was seen as being similar.
In the case of laziness, the bladder filling up is analogous to, let's say, shame reaching a level to where you're prompted to finally clean your room. Obviously increasing shame would be less than ideal, but there are other means for motivating yourself (e.g., purpose in service to others, duty, dharma, etc). He also draws a distinction between apathy and detachment, which are also part of the problem.
Anyways, I'm not sure I agree with everything he said/says, but it's worth checking out and an interesting perspective nonetheless!
Source: https://www.healthygamer.gg/asmongold-talks-to-healthygamer-...
The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Our knowledge of the brain is in fact very little. It's a false reassurance and reductionist view to see the brain as a machine simply because it is made of material parts that seem to act in a reliable way towards some end.
Why? We have complex machines and systems as well, where nobody would claim that there are only simple cause effect relationships and you only need a two-page owner's manual.
Drugs work pretty reliably. While you can't predict what exactly is going to happen when you take LSD, you can be pretty sure that something is going to happen. Why, if not because the brain reacting to some chemical?
This idea of "don't say it's a machine, you're oversimplifying it" is what's harmful in my eyes. It leads to anti-scientific positions, mysticism and fatalism. If there's nothing we can do to help, and nothing we can learn because it's so super hyper duper complex and "emergent", why bother. It's not, of course. While we don't know everything, we do know something. And we should extend our knowledge. Pretending that we can't know isn't useful.
There are a lot of ways to think about the differences between machines and people. One very simple one is that machines typically function in only a very limited subset of the space of their available degrees of freedom and small deviations are usually catastrophic. Biological systems don't usually have this property.
Another way to think about it is that machines show evidence of design, which you might characterize as a certain economy of ideas. Two clocks in a computer a much more likely to be identical or to share major conceptual underpinnings than two clocks in a biological system, for example.
I used to have your view of things and then I read Deacon's "Incomplete Nature," a book whose thesis fails to land but is never the less a comprehensive analysis of the properties of living organisms in a unified if rickety system which encompasses the basic laws of physics. It really convinced me that the analogy between brain and machine is poor.
The question of what a mind is and how it relates to the brain is not settled science or philosophy, at any rate. It doesn't do anyone any good to pretend it is.
(footnote): This is a reasonable assumption to make but its hardly widely believed by the general public nor settled scientific fact. Luminaries like Penrose still assert a fundamental disjunction between what brains do and what machines do and he isn't alone among physicists, to say nothing of the broader philosophical community or the lumpen mass of human opinion.
inputs (sensors, environment, external chemicals) + current state ---> outputs (behavior) + new state
kinda like computers or robots, in a deterministic manner (except it is practically impossible to recreate the exact same inputs, or the exact same state). You don't have to take it too literally, people who read it generally understand what it means.
Machines are in some sense constituted by an enormous, intentional, simplification of the possible dynamics of a clump of matter and its relations to the outside world. Their design is profoundly impacted by both our own cognitive limitations and the contexts in which they are manufactured and used. Biological systems simply don't have these constraints and they operate in what are often totally different ways from machines.
My point is that there is considerable scientific and philosophical scholarship on this issue which casts this metaphor into doubt at least with regard to base utility.
It's just not a very helpful metaphor, because we are nowhere close to having a way to simulate or compute that function.
So treating people as agents with goals, desires, personalities, experiences and histories and traumas, and drawing on our hard wired abilities for empathy, can be a far more useful model for actually helping and healing people than just giving them a pill.
But that's not a dichotomy. Nobody is saying to either disregard biochemistry and believe that God gave us free will by some magical act or just throw random pills at people.
You can see people as all that and still not reject the idea that chemical imbalances can negatively influence their goals, desires and personalities, and that chemicals can also positively influence them,
And honestly, there's a lot of complexity to even the smallest thing. A particularly good read, "I, Pencil" goes into how nobody knows how to make even a simple pencil.
What I was getting at is the fact that there is no fundamental difference between "I did it" and "my illness caused me to do it" (other than maybe probability).
Or in other words, no "free will", in the way that some people view that term.
My issue with the word machine is that in most people's minds that brings up ideas of cross sections, gears, cogs, repairs and so on. People aught to be thinking of a complex system instead like perhaps the ecosystem in the Amazon rainforest.
It's kind of like trying to put a rocket into space in the stone/bronze age. Or figuring out the Google codebase if it was handed to you in Assembly.
It's just that the physical composition of our bodies are knwon down to the protons (and even deeper). How they all work is a different question, but there is a specific way they work. Just have to figure it out.
When I say machine, I mean it as "construct" of any kind, not just electromechanical. Imo, it would be really nice if we could grow and reattach whole body parts, or grow bodies for transplant, but obviously those ideas bring a lot of negative connotations and ethical problems, so we're investing in electromechanical alternatives instead.
I think there is some admin access. The problem is it probably isn't a good idea to sudo | grep | awk > overwrite_file.model very often. Brains might just be a jumble of extremely efficient and over-fitted regression models and neural nets with a really shitty training dataset.
There was an SSC article that had some good discussion on this at some point, but thanks to NYT I can no longer link it.
When compared to doing nothing and tolerating them, I can definitely see that. But I still think there have to be more effective approaches than either (even if we don't know what some of them are yet).
But that's not the only element of actual insanity. Real insanity almost always involves a sick social fabric as well that lies to you about critical information, often blaming you for problems over which you have no real control.
They know that schizophrenics often get better with in patient treatment, then go home to their screwed up families and get worse again.
My sister took graduate courses in psychology for a time. She once said to me "We clearly don't have the genes for schizophrenia in the family or someone would have it because the family would have driven them crazy by now." Dad fought in two wars. Mom grew up in a war zone. These were haunted people who could be rather difficult to deal with.
I can understand people wanting to make this distinction "that I just need a pill, it's not like I'm crazy." People who are seriously crazy aren't typically fixable with just a pill. It's more complicated than that and our current system isn't really all that effective at bringing people back once they've gone nuts.
This is part of why I object to the "homeless people are all junkies and crazies" meme: it actively helps make vulnerable people crazy. It actively blames them for things they don't control and denies the existence of systemic issues to the faces of the victims who have such a low social status and are so openly disrespected that they aren't in a good position to argue with it. They are expected to kowtow and agree with everyone hanging their crap on them.
So it actively helps drive homeless people insane and makes it a self fulfilling prophecy. It deepens the problem and is actively abusive of our most vulnerable citizens.
I think mental health issues are complex. To whatever degree a pill actually helps, it's legitimate to view it as medical.
I have a lot of medical issues and I deal a lot with somatopsychic side effects. It's a somewhat obscure word meaning you get genuine mental health effects as a side effect of actual medical issues.
I don't use drugs to treat my issues. I mostly treat them nutritionally and there is research into how diet impacts brain chemistry and so forth. I have seen research indicating that nutritional supplements have a better track of treating certain issues than the prescription medication typically used.
I know a lot about the topic and related topics. I spent a few years in therapy for abuse endured as a child. I've done a lot reading and I've thought carefully about how to handle certain things in my life for which there aren't supposed to be any good solutions.
Social fabric and the mental models that it reinforces is another huge element of mental health. My medical issues don't turn into psychiatric issues in part because my two adult sons still live with me and they are abundantly familiar with the somatopsychic issues I am prone to and how to address them. So they do a lot of things that mitigate the issue when I am angsty or depressed or suicidal or whatever. They don't make those things worse by how they respond to them.
So I know from firsthand experience that how people around you response to mental health incidents can magnify or minimize them and it is my observation that most people magnify such problems. They take a lurid interest in the issue. They feel a desire to act like your "savior," thereby actively painting you as more screwed up than you are. Etc. ad nauseum.
So I'm not really sure how to engage your comment because I don't think I really understand it and I didn't like the reply I left earlier and I may end up not liking this one either, but I also wasn't comfortable just leaving no response. :/
Agree with your insights. To further this point, people who would be deemed to be suffering from schizophrenia in our culture often have worse outcomes than people with similar symptoms in cultures that accept and integrate their different experiences.
There's research done on this topic, and this article touches upon some of it[1]:
> Stanford anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann found that voice-hearing experiences of people with serious psychotic disorders are shaped by local culture – in the United States, the voices are harsh and threatening; in Africa and India, they are more benign and playful. This may have clinical implications for how to treat people with schizophrenia, she suggests.
[1] https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann...
Hogwash! You cannot "drive someone schizophrenic" no matter if they have it in their genes or not. I can't even begin to try and correct this. It's like saying "dad is such a jerk that he drove me to become blonde instead of brunette!"
While drugs aren't a panacea, they can help many with fixing psychological processes that are messed up.
This isn't like a simple infection, where you take a pill and it will go away.
For anyone interested in "chemical imbalance" theory, I highly recommend reading Carhart-Harris and Friston's paper "REBUS": http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/71/3/316 -- the basic gist of Friston's model is that the brain functions as a prediction engine, whose "prior probabilities" are "programmed" by past experience (within some environment). This paper addresses the role of serotonin: it reduces the "weighting" of our "prior probabilities" which gives them some malleability, meaning we can allow ourselves to adjust more fully to a new environment (or, if you flood yourself in serotonin, like with psychedelics ... it can nudge your highest-level priors, such as "who am I"?).
So from this perspective, we can see depression as a mis-adjustment between one's self (i.e. adaptation to past environments) and one's current environment (no chemicals involved here), and serotonin can provide a little nudge toward re-adapting.
First we had to create new terms because the old ones carried baggage. Now we have to righteously and victoriously claim the old ones because we should be proud of our baggage.
Call it chemical imbalance or call it people in distress; is any of this language vacillating actually enabling better treatment or is it just a way for people to get honors and headlines without actually having to actually produce science.
Psychology is based on the idea of "conceptualizations" or in CS lingo, abstractions. No Psych conceptualization actually carves at the joints of nature, they're all imperfect but each works for different situations or people.
(Humanistic Psychology)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_psychology] is great unless you're dealing with a psychopath. (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy)[https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/cognitive-behavi...] is great unless you actually have issues from your childhood to process which surprise surprise most of us do. [Psychoanalysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis) is great unless you're you know, not rich and don't have four days a week to do it.
We can't get away from "euphamisms" as you call them, but it shouldn't be a treadmill, most should exist side-by-side.
We think people are 100% responsible for their behavior, so if they do something wrong or inconvenience us, it's their fault, and they're bad people for it. They should just not complain or feel bad, because you're not entitled to sympathy for your mistakes or failings.
You have to have a convincing case for your misery, why you deserve sympathy, and how it's not your fault, and even then, don't you dare complain to much.
Obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit and don't feel that way myself. I really think most people believe some watered down version of this though.
Cut to 2010 and there was public outcry to have the offensive agency name changed but the people working there refused to give it up because they still held on to the more neutral meaning of "retard."
Both therepeutically, and how they are interacted with socially.
If we say it's a chemical imbalance, chemicals will be sought to correct the imbalance, and effective suggestions that require other people to change will be met with resistance.
If we say it's people in distress, other people will start to reflect and accept they play a role in causing the distress and be a bit more open to changing their behaviour.
The best "treatment" is, of course, a combination of things tailored to individual and circumstance. But widespread language greatly affects what is available in practice.
No it's not okay to use misleading language to describe, discuss, debate or eve refer to an extremely complex problem. That's how you get even more unintended problems: by not looking at the hard truths and operating off of them.
It matters because people think that most mental illnesses make the person less than, or they become insecure or fearful of people with basic mental issues and then become afraid to talk about their own.
Psychiatrists have been taking advantage of people with normal, run of the mill problems for decades. Their own industry insiders have been calling them out for years on over diagnosis. There is a very real incentive for psychiatrists to make poeple sick, or convince someone who is perfectly healthy otherwise to go on medications that will completely change their body chemistry and life.
Your attitude and approach to this problem is ignorant at best. You should speak to people before coming to such baseless conclusions and spewing them forth.
This isn't a euphemism treadmill. This is science and it makes perfect sense. Tons of people are experiencing chemical imbalances because of habits, and because of the way they are treated or disconnected with others throughout our culture. If you abuse someone emotionally and mentally enough, it will show physically, and it doesn't take much pal. I don't know what universe you're living in but maybe get out of the macho "i'm so badass" comic books metality for two seconds and realize medical abuse and corruption within our medical industries is FUBAR.
I've noticed in the past, that when I've been under a ton of stress, I drink coffee, soda, ruminate a ton, and things get worse, much worse.
I've started taking magnesium l-threonate the past few months and it's literally made me a better person. Thoughts come and go. The rumination, the "voices" are much less.
One scoop, three times a day during stressful periods (166mg of elemental magnesium).
The only other solution that's had this profound of an affect on me was Lexapro, but it had too many side effects.
I've done years of therapy but nothing ever seemed to stick. But the l-threonate, the diminished anxiety, those affects seem to stick. Better than any therapy session I've had.
I'll give this much more time to see how it plays out. But I have had the thought wondering if my mental anxiousness and depression all of these years was just a mineral deficiency.
Not that I wouldn't have gotten really sad or ruminated, but that it didn't have to be so bad. I was stressed. I needed lots of magnesium. I definitely was not getting it.
I use to take a large dose of Magnesium Glycinate, which did improve my anxiety. And sleep.
And I've taken epsom salt baths as well. Which helped me relax and sleep better as well.
But none of those have approached the even keeled feeling that the mg l-threonate provides. Maybe it's because l-threonate crosses the blood-brain barrier? Placebo affect? Unsure.
Milk of Magnesia is in every grocery store. I buy from Fry's (Kroeger), because their version doesn't have any additives.
I’m about to release an update to Orgro with LaTeX support powered by KaTeX. More info here: https://reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/hsa3ik/orgro_update_inli...
I don’t use LaTeX much, so if you would be willing to test with the kinds of documents you write, or even send me a file to test with, that would be greatly appreciated.
You should do your own research on it first of course, but it's been shown to be very safe.
But it felt like I became acclimated to it quickly - did you experience this?
Same for CBD - I felt very calm, like my normal self, but also became acclimated after a while.
This is a pretty big assertion that the piece casually drops without backing. The reasoning as to why "chemical imbalance" is a bad descriptor is apparent* from the study [0] the author cites, but there is nothing that backs up this statement, which seems to be the crux of the whole piece.
*Even the study cited about placebo affects on depression doesn't _really_ prove the author's point that "chemical imbalance" is a bad term, it just proves that we do not yet understand the processes by which drugs treat depression. If we do not understand the processes, how can the author make the assertion that the characterization they are against is wrong? At most, they could claim "we don't know yet" but certainly not that "chemical imbalance" is categorically false.
[0]: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2019.0040...
Fascinating conundrum.
My understanding was that the results of the author's interviews were the backing for this assertion:
>As the interviews made clear, people adopted the biogenetic account because they thought it was based in science. The interviews also show how this account undermines the kinds of introspection and self-examination that can lead to meaningful self-knowledge. >Mental health treatment needs to re-engage with the language of persons. This means suspending the detached, third-person stance toward patients, and attending to their actual experience and circumstances. And it means encouraging patients themselves to avoid this stance and draw on the normal ways that people make sense of their emotions and actions.
Or do you mean that the conclusion the author reaches, that we should be attending to people's experiences instead of using "biogenetic causal language," isn't justified by the results of the interviews?
>As I argue in my book Chemically Imbalanced (2020), to defeat this othering and reduce stigma, clinical practice needs to move away from biogenetic causal language. Psychiatric research doesn’t support the notion of simple cause and effect in mental health, instead uncovering a far more complex and indeterminate picture of vulnerabilities. There is no evidence to justify the continued promotion of one-dimensional theories such as ‘chemical imbalance’. Nor does the beneficial use of psychiatric medicines require it. In fact, their precise mechanism of action and relation to troublesome experience remains a mystery. It would be more truthful for mental health professionals and public health campaigns to acknowledge this.
It's helpful to note the flipped the burden of proof here: the author argues there is no evidence for "chemical imbalance" language, not that there is evidence against "chemical imbalance" language. I see it as an admission of uncertainty rather than claim of knowledge; the use of the somewhat tepid phrases "need to move away from", and "complex and indeterminate picture" are a further sign the statements are not categorical.
Though I could have misunderstood their thesis. I'll find out once I've read the book, I suppose. :-)
There can be a company pouring lead into a river, psychological hazard during a civil war, and it will always manifest in the brain, what kind of explanation is this? Of course these things can be found in the brain, it would be crazy if they didn't.
That's not to say there's no diseases that are actual individual pathologies of the brain of course, but to use 'chemical imbalance' as a sort of first order response to what may have actual social or environmental reasons say, is entirely circular reasoning.
I don't mind changing language, as long as we're become more precise, not less.
If "chemical imbalance" is bad, suggest something better.
I think a bigger problem is that people are fixated on word definitions and offending others instead of solving problems.
I agree, and this is pretty much unavoidable when the current clinical term is vague enough to be used as a generic insult.
The general pattern I see
1. A vague term is used to describe symptoms of an issue we have a poor understanding of.
2. That term becomes associated with the symptoms, but is vague enough to be used as a generic insult (ex: playground school children yelling it at each other)
3. That term develops a stigma as an insult, and becomes more and more controversial
4. That term is replaced with a new term, rinse and repeat.
We've seen this before ex: Moron, Imbecile, and Retard all once had vague clinical meanings.
Then we went to mentally challenged, special needs, etc. Now even those are fairly loaded terms.
In all of these cases, the word/phrase describes something that people would rather not have or be, but it does it without clarity.
It will develop a stigma.
I find the folks who constantly advocate for changing these names well-intentioned, but basically a waste of time.
Terms like Black, Dwarf, Gay, etc... were all, at some point, considered insults despite being specific. (note: I'm not saying these are illnesses - just that the same phenomena exists - there are probably much better examples of what I'm trying to say).
The term "chemical imbalance" can describe anything from acid reflux to genetic neurological pathologies or even snake bites and can certainly put people "in distress".
The problem is people aren't interested in using correct definitions for anything anymore.
Really? That's the problem? Not the mental disorder itself?
These semantic debates are less than worthless.
There is an implication inherent to "chemical imbalance" that assumes a normative range. Modern medicine is universally based on normative ranges. If you are outside this range, it is considered a problem. Chemical imbalance is a generic and apt descriptor.
In this case chemical imbalance would be objectively wrong. Their brain is being affected by another part of the body entirely, but you would have doctors selectively treating the symptoms (the 'chemical imbalance') rather than the cause.
I disagree. Chemical imbalance is not necessarily a solitary cause, it's describing a condition regardless. shrug
> you would have doctors selectively treating the symptoms (the 'chemical imbalance') rather than the cause
Typically they treat both or in most cases, the easier problem with less severe treatment consequences (classic House MD - live in constant pain from muscle death vs lose a limb).
Assuming you had an omniscient scientific tool every abnormal change in behaviour by definition has a correspondence to an abnormal state of the brain, that's just saying the same thing at a different level of abstraction.
When everyone is obese and has high blood pressure the correct cause of correction is probably setting different social incentives to fix a systemic problem, not mass producing insulin and betablockers, because you stopped at an overly reductionist level of description and mistook it for insight.
As disconcerting as it may be, subjective feeling is a range (google "pain indicator charts") as well as professional (for some value of that) psychological analysis.
I think your view is minority view.
It may be a minority view but only because of people's blind faith in a medical authority's ability to distinguish a patient's mind as 'abnormal'. What Barrin92 said is logically sound, an empirical diagnosis of the behavior coming from an individual is not a very precise measure of any type of chemical imbalance. That's not to say individuals suspected to have of mental illness shouldn't get treated, but that medical professionals shouldn't jump to medications as a primary end-all treatment (which is what I believe is what the linked article was trying to say).
In other words, it is not useless. It may seem obvious now, but it is not useless.
That said, I completely agree that the explanation should be dropped because we really have little to no evidence for it.
Generally, in a scientific context, characterizations are wrong if they lack any scientific basis.
That said, some people do have genuine chemical imbalances. I've had bipolar disorder all my life. My cocktail of medications has allowed the last 11 years of my life to be the most productive, stable and happiest. There are of course side effects - and I can understand why some people find them intolerable. I have tremendous difficulty ejaculating, for example. But on balance it's worth it as a) I'm alive and b) my quality of life has improved.
Likewise for my grandmother, my mother, my aunt and my cousin. Bipolar disorder ravaged our families at various points and medication has improved our lives immeasurably in various ways. I just feel for earlier generations that didn't have an explanation (let alone cure) for their woes.
I'd like to add that even if you do suffer from some aspect of SLS rather than crossed wires, medication can be key in enabling other forms of improvement.
Medication can be what enables you to seek other forms of therapy, what gives you enough energy to make it to the next appointment, what enables you to sort out other factors in your life, be it self esteem, socioeconomics, or relationships.
At least a few years back there was a pretty big sentiment against "happy pills" and medication, which I believe is harmful. That said, I don't believe solely in medication either, but want to maintain that it's an important tool that can serve either as a solution, or as the enabler of a solution.
Their point was that neither someone for whom a little bit of adderall or antidepressants, nor someone like yourself for whom a full compliment of medications has helped is understood to simply have a "chemical imbalance", and certainly not one that's 1-to-1 corrected by drugs.
Instead, it's the case that through some medications many people with mental illnesses of varying severities are helped in coping with or reducing symptoms of their illness.
The point is that people "other" themselves from people with mental illnesses, telling themselves that it's just a chemical imbalance they're correcting. This change in many peoples' understanding of how therapy or their own brains works has unfortunately not reduced the stigma of mental illness, it's just something people have been telling themselves (as the authors studies show) to substitute for an admission that mental illness is ok and can be worked on.
Oh, another aphorism that's always stuck with me is "the difference between 'crazy' and 'eccentric' is a million dollars."
But yes I think its possible all of the things you're talking about put together. The long term effects of the extreme wealth gap are so broad they're difficult to even take a survey of. But at the same time, we're becoming more open about mental health issues and acknowledging them as legitimate problems so reporting in accepting, progressive communities is going to make it seem like there are more.
Something really slimy about pivoting from human suffering to your pet critique of society & insisting that the only worthwhile course of action is your political agenda.
Their stories are not mine to tell. I've managed to squeak by with just a scoche of "on the spectrum," myself, so I am quite grateful, but I have watched (often in horror), as people have spiraled down.
People suffering from mental illness can often be impossible to help; regardless of how much we want to assist. They need to initiate and maintain their treatment.
There's so much societal "baggage," here. Mentally ill folks can often be profoundly unattractive, and it can be difficult to have empathy for them, or get support for them.
I remember once, walking down the street in the Union Square district of SF, on a business trip. As folks know, SF has a big homeless population, that is growing. We stepped around an obviously mentally ill man, and one of my employees shouted "Get a job!".
Would it were that simple, but his attitude is quite common.
But when treatment works, it can be absolutely miraculous, and worth every second of the pain.
I've had a lot of mild/moderate anxiety and depression since early in life, and whilst it's never been severe enough for me to be at risk of doing harm to myself or others, it has been a major complication in achieving good outcomes (i.e., always showed some promise and early success at intellectual, sporting and social pursuits, but could never hold it together enough emotionally to get sustained results.)
At times of particular seriousness, medication provided some relief; mostly SSRIs (sertraline/Zoloft), which I've taken in low doses for a total of about 3 years, and occasional valium for acute anxiety. But whilst these medicines made life more bearable, they never made life feel "normal" or felt like any kind of complete solution.
Part of the issue I guess was that I had a really strong feeling that what I was experiencing wasn't a biological malfunction or predetermined trait. I guess I knew that from the fact that I'd been able to do quite well at things, and feel quite happy, at least some of the time, throughout my life. It didn't make sense that I'd be biologically programmed to be well-functioning some of the time, but not at others.
After a long search I discovered deep subconscious emotional healing techniques, that enabled me to connect with the programmed reactions and beliefs that I'd picked up from some unpleasant early life experiences, that had snowballed as I progressed through life.
I've been undertaking various forms of these kinds of practices for about 8 years now, and bit by bit the anxiety and depression has dissipated, and my life outcomes (career/finances, friendships/relationships and physiological health) have steadily improved and are now doing so at an accelerating rate (though of course there are still ups and downs, with or without macro events like pandemics).
As I look around at all the unrest and widespread mental "illness" in the world, I can easily see links to the distress that so many people feel for all kinds of different specific reasons, but that often boil down to similar patterns: difficulties in childhood (feeling unsafe/unloved/undernourished at home), leading to difficulties getting good social and/or academic outcomes in school, leading to difficulties as people progress into adulthood and try to establish careers, social networks and romantic relationships in a world that can be very hostile to people who don't tick certain boxes.
I'm now quite convinced that the mainstream psychopharmacology industry is a failing effort to paper over the gaping hole in modern society's ability to provide people with the nurturing, confidence and agency needed to build satisfying lives.
From my own experience I'm sure things can be much better, but it will take a major rethink about much of the way we go about supporting people on their life journeys.
Can you elaborate on this? Can you recommend any resources?
So, please feel free to email me (address is in my profile).
Edit: the reason I’m reticent about getting into details here is that I’ve learned from years of experience that discussions on HN about unconventional health approaches can (a) easily devolve into futile arguments with motivated skeptics, and (b) be unconducive to sharing the material with sufficient detail and caution, given that some people seeking this kind of info are at risk.
And whilst there are some materials around to point to, they’re not very specific about techniques, whereas I’ve done extensive experimentation with different techniques and documentation of my learnings, including tracking of physiological indicators, and can present/explain it in a way that is more palatable to HN-types who are genuinely interested.
But if anyone wants to read published authors on the topic, try Gabor Mate, Bruce Lipton, John Sarno and Bessel Van Der Kolk as starting points.
I think the actual crisis is a lack of good judgment in the scientific arena. There are obvious cases we can imagine where a "chemical" explanation is simply bone-headed. Joe's dog dies, his house burns down, he is laid off from his work. His resultant emotional distress surely involves chemistry; he's a person, after all. But it is depersonalizing, naive, and a bit creepy, to suggest that his distress is "just chemical" and should be treated with a drug. That's just gross, and I take it the author's point.
But consider another example. Terry has great friends, rewarding job, engaging hobbies, etc., but spontaneous and overwhelming anxiety over the possibility of being hit by a meteorite. This is now entering the territory of an irrational psychological reason, and it isn't "de-personalizing" or naive for a doctor to suggest that there might be a purely chemical explanation. We seek the chemical explanation when there just isn't any other sufficiently motivating factor.
There's a time for both approaches.
This. The fact that "the mechanism of action remains a mystery" doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about it. Those drugs work, and AFAIK they are pretty safe. The same can be said about many other disorders that we don't know the mechanisms of action, but we still use drugs that seem to be successful (schizophrenia, OCD, Tourette, etc.). Depression and anxiety seem to be much more stigmatized when drugs are involved. I agree the diagnostics are all over the place, though. You can be sad and not be depressed, and you can be stressed without having an anxiety disorder. Doctors should be more rigorous and not default to antidepressants for every patient they see.
It would seem that "talking about it" is actually more effective than medication in many circumstances (e.g. the research on cognitive behavioral therapy versus medication).
The consensus at this point seems to be that we do not have any real causal theory for most mental illnesses, including depression.
Medication and talk therapies (including CBT) are more or less tied, from what I've heard.
While I do believe our understanding of how the brain functions still has a long way to go, which includes treatments for mental illness, there is something to be said about acknowledging more the external factors of our modern day lives that fill us with so many problems.
Personally, realizing where I have "disconnected" from people, values, and truly human experiences has been a large step forward in improving my mental health. I hope it's something that others who feel so many emotional challenges can try as well to see if they can make progress with their own mental health.
> There is no evidence to justify the continued promotion of one-dimensional theories such as ‘chemical imbalance’.
The Lost Connections book, which I read a few years ago, really helped hit this home for me. Totally made me reconsider my view of depression and treatment.
Personally having experienced depression myself and knowing many others who have experienced it, I’m of the opinion that a lot of mental issues are either symptoms of some other condition (like diarrhea or coughing) or the result of learned behavior / maladaptive coping mechanisms. Or simply us treating emotional states or personalities that aren’t socially acceptable as illnesses (of course this doesn’t include things like psychosis, nor is it meant to diminish how serious depression and anxiety can be). That’s a bit uncomfortable for the existing mental health complex though
However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories of bad therapists or medication side effects on the internet.
Giving people the "chemical imbalance" narrative is a way to short-circuit many of those internal objections. It gives people a notion that the depression isn't their fault, but rather they are a victim of a chemical change in their body not unlike getting the flu or having low testosterone levels.
In terms of getting people to accept treatment, it's a win. Getting past the ego can be surprisingly hard, but the idea that we're treating chemicals instead of treating the person is a clever trick to sidestep that obstacle and shortcut to the treatment.
In terms of giving people the tools to address their problems, it's not so clear. The more we reinforce the idea that depression is simply chemicals in the brain, the longer it takes for people to realize that they do have some power to influence their thought processes and voluntarily replace negative thought processes with positive ones.
However, it's important to remember what a typical course of treatment looks like. If someone is suffering from depression, getting them to commit to weekly therapy sessions with another person as well as following up with the therapy homework (that is, actually implementing what was discussed at therapy) can be a difficult proposition. Getting someone to stop by the pharmacy on the their way home and spend 10 seconds taking a pill every morning for the next 30 days is an easier proposition. The medication is often the jolt that gets people into a place where they're receptive to therapy, or they start making life changes to improve their depression. It's a quick and easy way to give people space to solve their problems, which is why the "chemical imbalance" sales pitch has become the entry point to getting people on board with treating their depression. Get them to lower their guard, get them started on the easiest treatment, and then work on scaling the treatment up to a more intensive, longer-term plan after they've seen hints of success.
I don't particularly like the "chemical imbalance" sales pitch either, but it really does function as a decent hook for getting people over their objections to starting treatment.
It's amazing how mainstream the anti-psychiatry movement has become. Please ignore it and focus on the modern science. The attempts to dismiss modern science with questionable historical references is non sequitur.
> But then again, even insiders like Jordan Peterson will “accept treatment” that nearly kills them.
Jordan Peterson is not an insider. He's not even a good representative of the industry. Please don't interpret anything he says or does as representative of the field. He's a social media star, not a recognized expert.
This is hugely compounded by the fact that even when people do decide to go for treatment like therapy, they discover that its painfully inaccessible. As in, if you don't have enough money to afford the 100$+ hour sessions, you feel like you completely run out of options.
There are more services trying to address this cost issue but from my experience (in Canada), they leave a lot to be desired
Depression is notorious for making people assume the worst. Many depressed people will assume therapy is inaccessible or too costly without even checking. I would encourage everyone to at least take a few minutes to look it up or call their insurance.
For example, I've walked several people through the process of finding a therapist, checking with their insurance, and scheduling appointments to get them started in the past few years (United States, corporate insurance). For most of them, therapy visits were billed with a $20 copay with a limit of 24 visits per year, which is more than accessible.
However, even if it's not, it's important to put the costs in perspective. How much would you pay for a magic pill that improved your problems? Does $1000/year sound worth it? That's 10 x $100 therapy sessions.
If professional therapy is out of reach, self-directed CBT using books or self-help resources have been shown to be effective as well. Not as fast or effective as professionally-guided therapy, but certainly a worthwhile starting point.
My purpose isn't to re-litigate gun control as an issue, but to point out that our policies and laws reflect our attitudes about mental health directly on access to things which are enshrined as fundamental rights in the US, already. It's a perfectly reasonable supposition to say: "I don't want truly crazy people to have guns.", it's another to say "I think it's acceptable to strip Constitutional rights from millions of Americans because they once had in-patient treatment as a child for their anxiety."
The latter is a matter of policy (regardless of how well it's actually enforced) simply due to the fact we don't understand the human mind or psychology enough to actually draw an objective distinction between those two types of people. Laws and systems work poorly with things which require subjective determination. "I'll know it when I see it" might be an acceptable type of thing to adjudicate, but it's a terrible type of thing to build bureaucratic processes around that are faceless, soulless, with no recourse.
This is just one of many examples where having any history of seeking treatment for mental health can be a disqualifier, or worse strip you of your rights. It's an effective disqualifier for many types of jobs as well in the US, especially government jobs which require a clearance or working at any company which accepts government contracts which would require a clearance.
Or, you know, it's a lot of time and money being spent on something that the medical industry has very little success in dealing with.
There is some truth to the metaphor, but I wonder if it’s doing more harm than good.
I think this article does a disservice by suggesting that people on such drugs are trying to get over a minor breakup. And actually that does a disservice to very depressed people and somewhat misunderstands them too. (There is also such thing as psychosis in severe depression, btw.)
It might be true that a trauma and stress that appears benign to someone else triggers such a terrible condition. But once the sufferer gets stuck in that loop... The drugs are very often the best idea available. Avoiding them can be harmful to the health of the sufferer.
So I don’t think it makes sense to paint all psychiatric medicine with the same brush
Just want to add I have heard people say they avoid antipsychotics due to what you describe as "dysphoria" and "sedating" qualities but one must also recognize that for many, a symptom of their illness is that they do not think they are ill or that anything is wrong.
Of course there are people who legitimately have disorders who legitimately benefit from the drugs. But we also need individuals who cast a critical eye on drug prescriptions. The hard part is making sure those critical individuals are sufficiently trained.
If you have a friend who refuses to take drugs prescribed by a medical professional, maybe it would be best to get a second or third opinion from another medical professional.
My concern is the metaphor in which many people are viewing mental health, not in the treatments themselves.
In my experience, whether the metaphor does more harm than good really depends on the individual patient.
When faced with the chemical imbalance metaphor, some people will bristle and say they're not "broken." Or they'll feel disempowered because they feel like they can't do anything but take a pill (or three).
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For others, it lifts a weight off their shoulders. Most people battling with mental illness have struggled and tried various coping mechanisms to feel "normal." The understanding that the issue chemical, not behavioral, lets some people forgive themselves.
Instead of "not being normal enough", the cause is external; it's something they can't just brute force their way out of. Externalizing the issue lets the person stop feeling guilty that they weren't able to solve their own issue. This clears the slate for the person and leads them to a path toward recovery from mental illness.
NOTE: I'm not a doctor. But everyone in my immediate (and most of my extended family has been diagnosed with a chronic mental health issue. So has my wife, our girlfriend, and many others in my life. So it's well-founded anecdotal evidence. And, for what it's worth, I'm in the second cohort I described above.
It's easy to forget that modern generic SSRIs are dirt cheap.
$4-5/month is typical. These compounds are trivial to produce. Many pharmacies don't even operate as money makers. They just want you to pick up groceries while you're in the store.
Picking up a couple of apples while you wait for a prescription to be filled might cost more than the medicine itself.
It's true that there are more expensive on-patent medications available, but it's reasonable (and encouraged) to start with the cheap generics first.
My summary: psychiatrists have been orchestrating a campaign of disinformation aimed to remove the stigma of mental illness from our culture, but it appears they may have made the stigma worse.
That said I have some very real anecdotes related to emotional responses to things. These are things I've noticed that very much link short term emotional effects to physiological effects in the brain.
The first, is a tool I learned from someone living with a type1 diabetic. He noticed that occasionally they'd end up in weirdly emotional antagonistic discussions with his partner, and eventually linked it to when his partner had low blood sugar. So, they established, that whenever conversations turn irrational, they pause and do a blood sugar check. Usually addressing this underlying problem made their conversation much more productive (and certainly just taking a break helped too). Similarly with my wife, we've established rules that allow one of us to pause the conversation to make sure the other is dealing with some underlying physical issue, usually one or both of us are tired or hungry when we start fighting. Tired and hungry both have profound effects on brain chemistry, so addressing them can have very real psychological effects.
My other anecdote is related to a correlation I've found with mental health and taking a vitamin D supplement. It's not entirely clear to me whether taking vitamin D prevents my tendency towards mild depression, or if I'm tending towards depression so I stop taking vitamin D. But I know that if I keep taking it on a daily basis, my mood tends to be more stable. If I were to replace it with a sugar pill it may have similar effects, but given I live in Seattle where many tend to be deficient, I'd probably start to notice in a couple weeks.
I had severe depression as a young man, and I remember being confused about it, as when I objectively examined my life there was no reason for it. But I was drowning in despair. When depression was explained to me, with the idea of a chemical imbalance, it all clicked. It enabled me to fight back appropriately and win back my mind. Without medication. It took a few years to get back to normal but I am a much, much stronger person for it, and have never had a hint of a relapse despite actually going through difficult times since then.
Humans are, as much as we hate to admit it, fundamentally emotional thinkers. And when we have emotions we immediately conjure up logical reasons for those emotions to exist, whether they are truly justified or not. And then we tell ourselves the reasons came first, and caused the emotions. Depression can be a bad feedback loop of chemicals that color the way we see the world, and then we justify how bad we feel, making us feel worse.
This might not be the solution for everyone, but for me the trick was not to try to understand my emotional suffering, but to ignore it. I would think, "that's the depression talking, its meaningless, you will feel bad today but it doesn't matter, get on with life". It was very hard, but as I stopped feeding the beast it slowly died away. Of course there are those that truly have reasons to be depressed, but I still think, after processing what happened, the best approach is to move on.
It lends the impression that you're saying something like: "Brains of well-adjusted humans have a dopamine to seratonin ratio of X, but my brain puts out X + epsilon. So, I take this pill, and it moves the dopamine amounts down to normal, and leaves everything else the same."
But, as everyone cringing right now at that statement knows, not only do we laymen not understand how the brain works well enough to make any such statement, but no one can make any such statement. There are multiple levels of problems involved:
1. Determine with certainty that a given psychological problem to one that is purely solved by altering brain chemicals in principle (vs. neuronal structure or environment, etc)
2. Determine that this living individual, whom you cannot crack open the brain of, is suffering from this psychological disorder because of a brain chemical imbalance.
3. Synthesize a drug that alters this chemical imbalance, leaving everything else the same. This would involve understanding both the immediate effect of the drug, and the eventual ramifications as the brain reacts and compensates for the drug's presence, such that the final steady state of the drug is the desired brain chemical balance.
The state of our science is such that we really can't do any of these with the precision the "chemical imbalance" framing implies. Compared with this unrealistic standard, we're barely better than alchemists. We know that in principle, some psychological problems are caused at least in part by brain chemical imbalances. But I agree with the article that we should stop giving the impression that this awareness implies an ability to diagnose and solve these imbalances.
Psychiatric research doesn’t support the notion of simple cause and effect in mental health, instead uncovering a far more complex and indeterminate picture of vulnerabilities. There is no evidence to justify the continued promotion of one-dimensional theories such as ‘chemical imbalance’. Nor does the beneficial use of psychiatric medicines require it. In fact, their precise mechanism of action and relation to troublesome experience remains a mystery. It would be more truthful for mental health professionals and public health campaigns to acknowledge this.
But the truth is we don’t have control over others so it’s a fool’s game to maintain an image. things can happen to “pop” it, and then you are crushed. Like the Michelin chef who committed suicide when he was in debt, felt washed up as culinary trends changed, and recently had a slight downgrade in his reviews (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Loiseau)
A better way I am learning (and far yet from fully realizing) is to anchor your self identify to things you can control. So rather than thinking of yourself as confident, normal woman, you might think of yourself as a woman who feels deeply and takes action. In this case, feeling depressed is not a threat to that identity - it becomes a challenge to rise up and meet, and focuses on what YOU can do, not what others think.
This all comes from the book “mindset” if you want more info.
And this is why I don’t like elitists telling me what I should or shouldn’t say.
I agree that, often, these disorders are a product of environment, along with economic, social and material conditions. However, medications can and do improve the quality of life for people who cannot change those conditions due to their station in life.
> Psychiatric research doesn’t support the notion of simple cause and effect in mental health, instead uncovering a far more complex and indeterminate picture of vulnerabilities. There is no evidence to justify the continued promotion of one-dimensional theories such as ‘chemical imbalance’.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, and believe that it's a huge problem with the mental health discourse. However, the author then goes on to say:
> Mental health treatment needs to re-engage with the language of persons. This means suspending the detached, third-person stance toward patients, and attending to their actual experience and circumstances. And it means encouraging patients themselves to avoid this stance and draw on the normal ways that people make sense of their emotions and actions.
A problem I've experienced is that "the normal ways that people make sense of their emotions and actions" do not seem to work for me. I haven't found a good description of it, but something in my sensory and cognitive feedback loop seems to be broken such that I don't get any useful sense of things in the moment and need to reverse-engineer my emotional state after the fact when it seems important to do so (NB: I don't just mean that this disconnect occurs when there's some kind of intense moment; it's pretty much constant). So I don't see how it's possible to both hold that up as the standard and also respect my "actual experience and circumstances". In other words, this sure seems like exactly the sort of one-dimensional theory of mental illness that the author decried earlier.
I think that contemporary society puts a lot of pressure and expectations on people at a young age. I suspect this is not a very healthy way to find your way in the world. Some people conform, some people follow the rules of the game, some people rebel to the rules, some are not even aware of the game. A little compassion and empathy would go along way, rather than treating each other as automata.
> that mental illnesses are ‘just like’ other chronic physical ailments, such as ‘heart disease or diabetes’
I would argue that in most cases chronic ailments (including mental illness) are not a consequence of "the way a person is made", but their lifestyle. Many people with chronic ailments accept the medication as a solution and don't make the necessary changes in their lives. I think making mental illness comparable to chronic illness made people think of it as something that can be addresses with just a pill.
We're very caught up in naturalistic thinking. Speaking of a soul or the mind is frivolous at best, and superstitious at worst. But look where this way of thinking has brought us.
The brain and the heart are two different organs. But while we can use science to gain an understanding of the brain, the mind is understood by philosophy and religion.
Case in point, I once asked a friend of mine if he could prove that he loved his wife. He said if he were able to freeze time, and gain knowledge of every synapse, every chemical reaction, every electrical potential -- he could definitively prove that he loved his wife, and she loved him.
"When you get home," I responded, "remember to duck when you tell your wife you want to go have her brain scanned to prove she loves you."
Just to give one case - last month I tried to get back into keto, as the lockdown had worn away my resistance to junk food and bad eating habits began.
In the process, I bounced in and out of ketosis, and my emotional state was all over the map. Crying, ecstatic, and everything in between. It was like being bipolar (I have a family member who is clinically bipolar, so I know firsthand what that does to someone).
But then, two weeks ago, I finally was able to get into my Keto diet fully. And for two weeks, my personality has been back to normal, and much more calm, less emotional, more focused, etc. [0]
Also, while I was going through the transition phase in/out of keto last month, I had several days of really vivid bad dreams and poor sleep. Several days of bad dreams was weird. Being tired on top of it made it worse.
So that's why I disagree. My firsthand experience with changing my food made a huge difference. (The first time I got into keto - about 2 years ago - I did so with a doctor who specializes in eating habits. This time was with that knowledge, but without my doctor as a guide. Thankfully my wife was a month ahead of me in the process, which made it tolerable.)
[0] - note to anyone trying Keto - go in fully, not halfway, and you'll only have a day or two of being grumpy (usually day 3 or 4). Have a guide to support you, as being on the cusp, but not truly in keto really sucks!
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Quick Edit - there ARE people in distress, and I'm not trying to take away from that, rather I'm talking about the everyday person who has some things out of whack sometimes.
By all means, if you are depressed, PLEASE talk to someone - it will probably save your life.
The food you eat affects your chemical balance, and therefore your ability to process information when you are making a decision or analyzing a situation by overloading your circuits.
You can actually try this by eating a bunch of sugar and carbs for a few days, and then going without carbs or sugar for a few days. I guarantee your ability to process information will change, and your personality probably will change as well. If you have a spouse or roommate, ask them if they notice - I'll bet they will.
My point is about causality. We are basically (no pun intended) a big bag of chemicals, and those chemicals are used by our brain to do its work. Simply having the wrong level of salt in your body (not just NaCl, but any salts) can significantly affect your brain.
I just looked up the word because I couldn't remember it, but Hyponatremia is caused by not enough salt in the body and can make your brain physically swell. Think about that for a moment - just one chemical can make your brain change in size - imagine what the effects are from all foods you take in.
So to me, psychiatry has it wrong. It's like a mechanic trying to diagnose why your engine doesn't work when you put molasses in the gas tank, or why a heart surgeon talking to a 500 pound obese person and without discussing their eating habits. Why should the brain be any different?
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EDIT - Check out this page at the Mayo Clinic [0]. They list some of the symptoms of hyponatremia, which include, * "Confusion, Loss of energy, drowsiness and fatigue, Restlessness and irritability "*
[0] - https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/...
Like... that hyponatremia link is almost the definition of this kind of thinking: it's a real syndrome, it's documented, it's worth understanding and studying. But come on: EVERYONE has "Confusion, Loss of energy, drowsiness and fatigue, Restlessness and irritability" at some level, and of those how many are actually sodium deficient? That's a non-diagnosis.
I guess my main issue is if we ignore diet as a cause, then we quickly get to medications, which can make the situation worse (not necessarily make the problem worse, but other problems can arise as a result).
I think that if psychiatrists were as well trained in food chemistry as they are in drug chemistry that the world would be a better place.
Finally, one personal anecdote - my business partner is really attuned to my moods. When I come into the office in a grouchy mood (of which I'm often not aware), he'll call it out. The first year or so it was off-putting, and somewhat annoying, but after I got into Keto, I noticed that my mood was changing as a result of the food I ate the day(s) before. Over time, our whole team has started to become attuned to it as well (yeah, it's kinda weird, and no, we are not all on keto - we tend to have fairly varied diets among us). The great result is that we call it out like, - "you're in a grouchy mood, what did you eat yesterday?", or "I'm not focused today" and the other person asks what they ate recently. This has been really effective for us, because most of the time it's the food affecting us, as opposed to us just being a jerk. Obviously other things weigh too, such as other stressors in life. but many little things we can trace back to food, and it has made our team much better at working together because we are freer at calling these sorts of things out.
We should try to fix this problem not patch it up with medication. In terms of evolution, our social system selects for mental illness. Rewards the psychopaths and medicates the altruists so that they learn to tolerate it.
The idea that 'mental illness' is a boogyman label which one will avoid at all costs is a good one. Who would want to self apply this label? You'll throw your lot in with the person talking to themselves on the street corner.
Instead of this, we are now supposed to start trying to encourage people to humanize mental distress (no need to say disorder now), indeed to extend this even to those suffering from more severe problems.
All of this is well and good, but the problem isn't really the term 'mental illness' is it? It's that we have decided as a society to reject all mentally ill people as hopeless cases, broken beyond repair.
It doesn't have to be this way. Many mental disorders are recoverable, and there is a huge amount of unknown about the rest. We have literally made a poor cost benefit analysis years ago and stuck with it for far too long without much thought.
What we should do is recognize that mental illness impacts most of us at some point in our lives, and that it severely impacts members of our own families (if you don't think it does, they are probably not telling you because of the stigma).
What would we have to do to resolve this? We would have to decide to dedicate large financial resources to helping the mentally ill recover if possible, or to find an existence which is mutually beneficial if not. Many countries have done exactly this, and with the considerable resources we have in this society, there is little doubt that we could find more answers to helping find real recovery.
Once people observe that mental illness is not a badge of shame, but an actual illness like many others, I believe that many more will be encouraged to seek assistance, and that we will all be much better off for it. As a nice side effect, you will no longer have to feel like shit knowing that the bipolar person on the street is likely to get roughed up frequently and meet an early end because we decided that's the way it is.
I was aware, though,of the yawning abyss between my mood disorder and "real" mental health issues. I have a very good friend who is very affected by bipolar disorder, and while they maintain that depression and bipolar are as debilitating as each other, I see the shit they go through and shudder. But then, I've seen the shit they went through and shudder. Correlation is not causation, but everyone I've met who is working their way through mental health problems has a proportionate amount of trauma to go with it.
In solid state physics, where reductionism is definitely a powerful and useful tool, the following article seems to be interesting. It's a possible reminder of what you maybe can and can't get from reductionism. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/177/4047/393
No clue how much of that (if any) might apply to psychology.
If lifestyle and/or environmental conditions were not enough to derail a healthy mind, the information streams run with psychopath+ variables are sure to catch many who didn`t fall through the cracks (given enough time).
If the imbalance is artificial or synthetic in nature, the corner to turn is now.
The quality of an individuals information diet holds the key for many (IMHO). This also leaves room for medical conditions and other reasonable observations that may cause an imbalance of this type.
Attributing mental health issues to physiology might look like a convenient way for a distressed individual to escape the associated social stigma, but in absence of causal mechanisms pointing that way it is a dangerous assumption to make, prompting symptomatic treatments that leave the underlying cause to fester.
Unintentionally perpetuating the stigma of mental illness through e.g. mindlessly used unfortunate figures of speech is among the worst casual slips one can make.
"He feels his mania is what we all have and deny, that insanity is a rational adjustment to an insane world." [0]
[0] https://www.spin.com/2017/06/tupac-birthday-danyel-smith/
It was always linked to some stressful event. Loosing a job, not being able to keep the lights on, loosing a partner, or an abusive partner....
We can write and read articles like this all day. But if Rx advertisers can create new, stupid ideas in commercials faster than we can dispel them, then there's no use.
It's like diagnosing someone as a diabetic without measuring glucose levels directly or indirectly.
Just experiencing these emotions and meditating on their cause will relieve a lot more people.
Is there any space that ideologues haven't infested yet?
Yeah, sure, everything is political, but that doesn't mean you are obligated to inject your politics into everything.
For people facing psychological issues, see the resources I've collected in the "Health and Wellness" section of this reading list I have put together: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations...
If you can only look at one resource, read or watch something by Stephen Ilardi, PhD, author of "The Depression Cure: The 6-Step Program to Beat Depression without Drugs", whose advice is built around this quote of his: "We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, sleep-deprived, socially-isolated, fast-food-laden, frenetic pace of modern life."
Dr. Ilardi prescribes an easy-to-follow, clinically proven program that harks back to what our bodies were originally adapted for and what they continue to need with these six components:
* Brain Food [supplement with Omega 3s; remember your brain is mostly fat]
* Don't Think, Do [avoid excessive rumination by doing things]
* Antidepressant Exercise [aerobic exercise is medicine]
* Let There Be Light [get natural sunlight and supplement as needed with vitamin D3]
* Get Connected [engage in face-to-face social activities regularly]
* Habits of Healthy Sleep [get enough sleep by following basic guidelines]
There are many other books as like the excellent "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker or many on nutrition (e.g. Fuhrman, Weil, Mackey, etc.) that examine aspects of this issue -- but what makes Ilardi's book so useful is bringing so many of these ideas together in a historical context. Ilardi says his advice is general and some people with specific traumas underlying their depression may need additional specific help (such as in "The Body Keeps The Score" book on recovery from trauma mentioned below).Other books that address specific aspects of depression and related issues of addiction, trauma, and perfectionism (and how they are at root deep cultural issues related to recent Western lifestyle changes) include:
* "Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression – and the Unexpected Solutions" by Johann Hari. From the last chapter of the book: "You aren’t a machine with broken parts. You are an animal whose needs are not being met. You need to have a community. You need to have meaningful values, not the junk values you’ve been pumped full of all your life, telling you happiness comes through money and buying objects. You need to have meaningful work. You need the natural world. You need to feel you are respected. You need a secure future. You need connections to all these things. You need to release any shame you might feel for having been mistreated."
* "Chasing the Scream: the First and Last Days of the War on Drugs" by Johann Hari
* "The Globalization of Addiction: A Study in Poverty of the Spirit" by Bruce Alexander
* "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction" by Gabor Maté, MD
* "The Story You Need to Tell: Writing to Heal from Trauma, Illness, or Loss" by Sandra Marinella
* "Writing Hard Stories: Celebrated Memoirists Who Shaped Art from Trauma" by Melanie Brooks
* "The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are" by Brené Brown
* "Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead" by Brené Brown
For people dealing with the special case of a specific trauma for themselves or a loved one, consider reading "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma" by Bessel A. van der Kolk. As the blurb for that says, "Trauma is a fact of life. Veterans and their families deal with the painful aftermath of combat; one in five Americans has been molested; one in four grew up with alcoholics; one in three couples have engaged in physical violence. Such experiences inevitably leave traces on minds, emotions, and even on biology. Sadly, trauma sufferers frequently pass on their stress to their partners and children. Renowned trauma expert Bessel van der Kolk has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body Keeps the Score, he transforms our understanding of traumatic stress, revealing how it literally rearranges the brain’s wiring -- specifically areas dedicated to pleasure, engagement, control, and trust. He shows how these areas can be reactivated through innovative treatments including neurofeedback, mindfulness techniques, play, yoga, and other therapies. Based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The Body Keeps the Score offers proven alternatives to drugs and talk therapy -- and a way to reclaim lives."For those facing specific issues related to suicide for themselves or a loved one, a key book is: "Out of the Nightmare: Recovery from Depression and Suicidal Pain" by David Conroy. By reconceptualizing suicide as an involuntary action that occurs when total pain exceeds resources for coping with pain, David Conroy provides a morally neutral way for organizations and society to think about suicide prevention in a productive way. Rather than focus mainly on intervening in a crisis, organizations and societies can rethink their operations to reduce participant pain and to increase coping resources. This helps everyone -- not just those who have reached a threshold where pain is very close to coping resources. Aggregate pain includes physical pain, emotional pain, and social pain. Reducing pain in any area by even a small amount may bring a person below a threshold for suicide. Similarly there are many types of coping resources from interacting with a friend, to going to a funny movie, to receiving adequate health care, to interacting with a pet. There are also some short-term coping strategies like denial or drinking which may have long-term negative consequences that become new sources of pain when done to excess.
As David Conroy says: "Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain. That's all it's about. You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn't even mean that you really want to die - it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right now. If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse if I add enough weights... no matter how much you want to remain standing. Willpower has nothing to do with it. Of course you would cheer yourself up, if you could. Don't accept it if someone tells you, "That's not enough to be suicidal about." There are many kinds of pain that may lead to suicide. Whether or not the pain is bearable may differ from person to person. What might be bearable to someone else, may not be bearable to you. The point at which the pain becomes unbearable depends on what kinds of coping resources you have. Individuals vary greatly in their capacity to withstand pain. When pain exceeds pain-coping resources, suicidal feelings are the result. Suicide is neither wrong nor right; it is not a defect of character; it is morally neutral. It is simply an imbalance of pain versus coping resources. You can survive suicidal feelings if you do either of two things: (1) find a way to reduce your pain, or (2) find a way to increase your coping resources. Both are possible."
(I write this in memory of my friend from Princeton, Robin Rochlin Cooperman, M.D. Psychiatry, 1963-2010. I can wish that she was still alive to talk with about all this newly emerging information about increasing wellness in a wide variety of ways beyond prescription pharmaceuticals. And also I write this in memory of other friends I have lost along the way...)
Sleep has taken a back seat since having kids, but not for lack of trying, and I have every confidence that a few years from now it will be in fine form again.
My difficulty now is to try to get my wife to go on a similar journey of improvement. She eats well, but ruminates, doesn't exercise, works in a windowless office or leaves the curtains closed when working from home, avoids people, and sleeps terribly. She'll even lament these things, knowing they're a problem, but my encouragement (or nagging, let's be realistic) to try to improve these things falls on deaf ears. There's always some excuse, always some reason why it can't be now, why it can't be scheduled for soon, why it's not going to happen. Books I've bought her on the topic sit unread, gift cards for yoga classes go unused.
If you know of any resources for someone to try to help someone else improve without falling into the pitfalls I keep falling into, time and again, I'd appreciate it.
* continue to be a good example
* try to reduce stress in her life (without increasing yours significantly)
* be a good listener
* consider a physical hobby together like swing dancing -- or maybe walking or swimming or yoga or kayaking in the sunshine (ideally things your kids can be safely involved in too)
* consider humor (healthy humor; maybe read up on that like stuff by Joel Goodman such as "Laffirmations" or things by others)
* consider a temporary change of scenery (like an active vacation in the sun?)
Kudos on your own success though. That has to be helping your wife even if indirectly in being able to be a better parent and better spouse.One idea is like on airlines: "Put on your own oxygen mask first before assisting others". You've already done that, but keep it in mind. As Zig Ziglar said, "People often say that motivation doesn't last. Well, neither does bathing - that's why we recommend it daily." Also, a lot of this for everyone is a spiral -- or ups and downs with backsliding. It takes practice (and mistakes) to get better at things. You might find of general interest two somewhat funny movies by Joe Cross called "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead I and II". They talk about progress and backsliding and progress again in nutrition and exercise. They might be useful in knowing you are not alone in that sense.
You can try to structure your shared environment (also to your own benefit) to make doing the healthier thing easy to do. Like maybe figuring out a better way to open and close curtains -- maybe even something automated? Maybe consider a treadmill workstation (although it requires reasonably good eyesight so works better at younger ages with more flexible accommodating eye lenses). The pandemic makes socializing harder of course, but maybe think about how you can help your wife more easily stay connected to any friends or family she already has (even one phone call a week).
Also, a gift card for yoga in a way just adds to your wife's workload (including travel to and from lessons). So how about getting a yoga mat and doing yoga together at home? Again, setting a good example yourself could help. As is the idea of making doing the healthier things easier.
Since the issue (including nagging) may affect your relationship eventually, consider pre-emptively reading a John Gottman book like "What Makes Love Last". Maybe also check out this HN discussion and story on "Beware of Being "Right"" to avoid crossing over from being supportive to being controlling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802241
Also, rather than nag given it is not working (but still may make you feel good that you are trying and so be reinforcing to you), consider saying nothing about what you think should happen but instead providing some sort of positive reinforcement for your wife when she actually does a healthy thing -- even a small step. Look at writings or videos by dolphin trainers or positive-reinforcement-only dog trainers, like perhaps Karen Pryor. People are always doing a variety of things, so look for the positive tiniest incremental improvements and help them grow. That will also help you yourself focus more on looking for the positive things your wife is doing than the negative.
Or, at a higher cognitive level, since you are interested in influencing decisions, you could also look into books on selling, like Dan Pink's "To Sell is Human". From the blurb: "To Sell Is Human offers a fresh look at the art and science of selling. As he did in Drive and A Whole New Mind, Daniel H. Pink draws on a rich trove of social science for his counterintuitive insights. He reveals the new ABCs of moving others (it’s no longer “Always Be Closing”), explains why extraverts don’t make the best salespeople, and shows how giving people an “off-ramp” for their actions can matter more than actually changing their minds. Along the way, Pink describes the six successors to the elevator pitch, the three rules for understanding another’s perspective, the five frames that can make your message clearer and more persuasive, and much more. The result is a perceptive and practical book–one that will change how you see the world and transform what you do at work, at school, and at home."
Yoga nidra or positive visioning might also help if your wife does want to change something?
If you can address one aspect, which should it be? I'd suggest sleep. That can be a huge challenge with young kids. Try reading "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker. Or maybe listen to it as an audio book? What I got from that book was a sense that our brains are adapted to run overclocked (as it were) during daylight hours, building up waste products and also accumulating unstored memories. When we sleep well, channels in the brain literally widen and fluid flows to wash away the toxic buildup (which otherwise can contribute to Alzheimer's), our brain moves memories of the day into long-term storage, or brain via dreams also processes traumatic events of the day to remove the distressing emotional overtones and learn from them. But that only happens with good sleep. So, ask yourself, how can you help your wife get better sleep? You can also ask yourself if maybe she is a night owl trying to keep a schedule better for a morning lark or vice versa?
Anyway, some ideas to get you started. Now that you are thinking more about this, all sorts of ideas might come into your attention. Still, in the end, no one is perfect (if such a thing is even definable given conflicting -priorities). So take time to enjoy your imperfect relationship with your imperfect wife and imperfect kids -- and try to be thankful every day for how lucky you are given you are imperfect too (as is everyone in some way). That might help reduce some of the stress of the situation for everyone -- which might have its own beneficial effects.
Good luck!
It has always disturbed me greatly that pharmaceutical companies can go around claiming disorders in the DSM based on tons of research, but where is the pathway testing done? Why don't we see that happening with regular patients? There is a very strong disconnect between how these diseases are agreed upon AND treated VS the Hippocratic oath, objectivity, scientific, methodological reasoning.
What's even more disturbing is how completely normal mental health issues are then twisted in main stream culture, and used to control or hurt people, rather than help them. Mental health virtue signaling amongst psychiatrists is at an all time high with people bragging about how wonderful their disorder is and how proud they are. Does nobody else see something wrong with that? These doctors are convincing people they are permanently damaged (DNA/hereditary) and then pumping them full of drugs that don't quite do the trick. And this is happening in MASS. Mutagenic drugs fed to children and industry insiders have been blowing the whistle on overdiagnosis and overmedication for decades. And people wonder why our country is going crazy... wow.
Just. wow.
Mental health professionals in our society are failing us hard as a group and as individuals. I would cry myself to sleep, tears of sweet joy if I knew this was getting fixed and regulated and that psychiatrists had to undergo psychiatric evaluations themselves because I know several who are downright sociopaths and think that it's their right to tell other people they're permanently damaged and therefor wrong about <insert whatever random disagreement they have here>. It's honestly scary as hell because psychiatrists have made my life a living nightmare and nobody seems to want to listen or help, or the ones that do can't or don't know how. I even talked to Monica W. of proxy project and she is only putting money she gets into research or legal testimony. MSbP victims aren't being helped on a big scale and this is an issue serious enough that if left unchecked is going to (and already is) cause untold damage to our culture and society, shit I'd wager our ability to survive even.
I do blame fakes like Dr. Phil for making everyone afraid of MSbP victims. He sensationalized the case about the girl and her boyfriend who killed her mom. Then he just makes it seem like some horrifying rare condition. No other cases to go over, no suggestions about how we can tackle this problem. Just straight up fear mongering. he's a real big piece of . While in fact this is happening all the time everywhere in front of our noses, but we somehow went from blindly trusting in Pastors who rape boys to Psychiatrists who convince everyone they need to pay them the rest of their life and take pills that will permanently alter their body chemistry in unintended ways.
Find out more about medical abuse at proxy project.
Are lifetime outcomes really better on all these Drugs? Maybe after you already created drug addictions, a different drug would help.
Prior to drug use, I imagine therapy, monetary support, education, etc... Would all be better than 2020s brand name Adderall.
Mental illness that is constitutional, what used to be called psychosis, may be patholigized, but it is hardly as common as some shrinks seem to think.
There is also another source of mental illness, probably the most common one. In an age that receives the words "sin", "vice", and "immoral" with amusement, discomfort, indifference, or even outright hostility, we seem to have lost the ability to confront this cause of mental illness, namely, sin, vice, and immorality.
There is no crisp line between physical, mental, and moral maladies, so to speak. And in this respect, vice can produce what used to be called neurosis. Sins and vices harm the sinner, and when left unacknowledged and undealt with, the guilt can manifest in a variety of bizarre ways that twist our emotions, appetites, motives, perceptions, and reasoning. It can reinforce cycles of vice. Pathologizing can be one way to find temporary, illusory relief by scapegoating one's guilt by invoking "chemical imabalance". Sure, there may be a chemical change in the brain, but that change in this scenario is the effect and not the cause.
If you take offense to this, im sorry, but you have a chemical imbalance.
Depression can feel like your whole world is upside down, an imbalance in the way your head works is a perfectly apt metaphor for how your brain works in this state.
These ideas arent mutually exclusive either. Context matters, I wouldnt point at jane and say, this is the one i was telling you about, the one with the imbalanced brain.
I would say, this is jane, the one going through some depression as of late.
If someone says well whats depression? Then maybe it would make sense to explain how depression works, maybe then it would come up.
If we discard true clinical depression where a young dude in perfect health feels suicidal in his own bentley, my approach to treat depression would be reading books that stimulate imagination, from Harry Potter to more exciting literature like Transcendental Magic by Eliphas Levi.
- homeless <=> crazy, bad
- Some anxiety <=> type A hustler, good
- And now: a little depression + access to healthcare <=> "it's just bug", neutral