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Comment by ISL | Hacker News Reader

This appears to be an appropriate response, rather than hacking around the edict by creating pro-forma trivial in-person classes.

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Hacking? You're in for a surprise when you discover what tax attorneys do everyday. If that's the way it was written, it's mostly fair game. That's why it's tough to write effective laws that consider the actual incentives that they are placing instead of what they (whoever is writing) are expecting to happen in their minds.

I think a trivial in-person classes may be an intentional loophole. It stops online-only universities from being a gateway to an easy long-term Visa.

There is no such thing as an easy long term visa for these schools to be a gateway for.

I meant longer term visas rather than semipermanent visas. You could pay a few thousand a year for an online college to stay in the US wherever you want. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that, but it's probably easier to work under the table this way when you don't have to worry about being deported.

Sure there is or at least significantly easier than without going to a US school. There's a reason all these international students are going to US schools.

Go to a US school. Get OPT visa status upon graduation for 3 years. Get a job at a US company using OPT status for your work authorization. Have US company file for a H1B lottery every year until OPT runs out. This whole time you're legally allowed to work in the US.

I think both are necessary. ICE is ridiculous, there should be a reasonable exception given the pandemic. I’m embarrassed this is happening in America.

So we should ignore laws during times of pandemic?

Edit: I can’t seem to reply to the comment below mine this might be due to the negative karma. I will edit this comment as my reply.

I was a foreigner on a visa for 14 years in America. A lot of these students are playing the system if ICE is deporting them for things like not studying or breaking the rules of the visa then they are doing their job. I have been in their position and they give you a lot of chances if ICE has to grab you then your doing something really wrong.

Edit #2: reply button is back.

Edit #3: you can downvote me as much as you want but it doesn’t change facts.

Are laws meant to serve the people or to arrest them to slavery?

Is a pandemic not a good enough reason to create exceptions?

More importantly, if this administration could create exceptions for tax filing, printing money and stopping evictions, why can't they do it for the health of schools and educators?

Laws are meant to serve the people. However I feel there is more to this story. We can’t just tell ICE to ignore the law. The law should be updated if necessary but as of now it’s the law.

Pandemic is a good reason for exceptions they can bring this up in immigration court. That’s what it’s for.

They should have changed the law way before ICE came don’t you think? Why is it a concern now? I feel like something isn’t being presented.

Why don't you apply the same logic to PPP program or eviction moratorium or tax returns?

> However I feel there is more to this story. We can’t just tell Treasury and FED to ignore the law. The law should be updated if necessary but as of now it’s the law. Pandemic is a good reason for exceptions they can bring this up in supreme court. That’s what it’s for.

> They should have changed the law way before the FED came don’t you think? Why is it a concern now? I feel like something isn’t being presented.

Either you are being naive or more likely evasive. We elect lawmakers to make the right choices on our behalf, NOT to rigidly debate laws in emergencies. Selectively applying exceptions in one place while not at another (clearly marked by partisan politics) is NOT representative.

Yes, the international students followed the rules to get a student visa and get accepted into a university. They arranged for everything from admission/acceptance to travel to tuition. The pandemic a calamitous event and the law needs exemptions for this scenario.

Edit: To the OP, I know how the system is played too, many immigration cases involve some level of fraud. Regardless, the cruelty factor of the system is that it allows you to commit your life to living here, while at the same time maintaining the threat of the rug being pulled out from right under you. It’s intense, and I’d like to see some of that mitigated.

“Immediate deportation” is the scariest thing for anyone without a Green card.

I agree it’s very scary but as of now they have to debate their case in immigration court. MIT and Harvard should have made a case for this a long time ago. I also want to know if they are grabbing all student or those they suspect of things like working on their visa. If your like me you understand some people just really game the system.

They should have preemptively assumed that the administration would suddenly withdraw the exception due to the pandemic? What?

Nobody is gaming the system here. These are normal students who just want to live their lives without being told to pack up and leave with a couple weeks notice.

Can you imagine the stress knowing that even if you do literally everything right that some bonehead who hates immigrants can change policy and suddenly make you need to completely rearrange your life?

No. Ideally, ICE would've announced this much sooner so that Universities could prepare. Or asked for an exception or the laws changed so that this isn't a problem.

Instead they chose to announce this and give universities 9 days to get everything figured out.

This is patently immoral for visa holders that would otherwise be allowed to be in the country given any other circumstances (ie not a global pandemic)

Can they not continue their education online from their host countries and re-enter the US at a later time?

The problem is with international students already in the country risking traveling during a pandemic. Or the alternative: risking in-person classes.

The schools can just provide an in person class once a week and they could wear a mask in class and sit farther away from people. I think a lot of these students either don’t want to go to class or are working on their visa. I’ve been in their situation so I have a doubt ICE is randomly coming for them. If they did nothing wrong they can present their case in immigration court.

If you were actually someone who has been through the US immigration process, your lack of empathy is appalling.

> I’ve been in their situation

You’ve been in their situation of being forced to attend in-person classes during a pandemic?

You need to maintain continuous residency for OPT, so this ruins a student’s chance at staying in the US after they graduate.

The timing is also incredibly sudden. Graduate students have been in the US for 5-10 years. They have leases and cars and friends. Giving them a few weeks before deporting them is cruel.

> Giving them a few weeks before deporting them is cruel.

This is the intention of the Trump admin's policy: discouraging people from immigrating by whatever ugly means necessary, no matter if illegal or not. This has been a consistent line from the beginning with the infamous "muslim ban".

Wouldn't Graduate students be exempt from this to begin with? At least at the Ph.D level, past the first year or two you aren't even taking classes, the whole point of the degree is the research. They are also usually employed by the University as teaching assistants. How would this law impact them?

Note: I support the lawsuit, I have many friends who are or were international students, I live in Boston, just wondering how this would affect research-based grad students.

I don't know since I am not a lawyer.

I do know that I have faculty friends who have had their grad students come to them in tremendous distress related to this policy. So at least some people believe that this would deport graduate students who have advanced to candidacy.

Most graduate students are in the US on F-1 visas [1] and still need to maintain a minimum course unit enrollment per semester in order to be in status [2]. IANAL, but I would assume they're not exempt from the new in-person requirement for their registered courses.

[1] https://educationusa.state.gov/your-5-steps-us-study/apply-y...

[2] https://ois.usc.edu/students/maintainingstudentstatus/, https://international.northeastern.edu/ogs/maintaining-statu..., etc. (many schools have some version of this FAQ page on their websites)

What's worse is that they didn't just make a decision. They reversed their previous statement that universities were using as guidance up until this point.

Universities were expecting updated guidance for the fall. This didn't come as huge surprise to people who deal with this stuff.

Malicious compliance is a perfectly appropriate response to a malicious law.

It is a mitigation strategy, but it doesn't fix the problem directly.

No, it's what you fall back on when you can't fix the problem directly.

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