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max937

This cable is clearly superior to USB-C. Why can't they make USB-C easier to plug in and reversible?

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First of all, Apple was a contributing member to the USB-C group. [1]

Second of all, it is reversible (?)

It's inferior to USB-C in at least two ways:

1. The part that wears out is inside the phone in Lightning and inside the cable in USB-C

2. Lightning is for the most part USB 2.0 capable (though there is a newer USB 3.0 version - unsure how many devices/accessories support that).

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/

> 1. The part that wears out is inside the phone in Lightning

How is this mitigated in usb-c? As in how do they prevent the inside of usb-c from wearing out?

The friction pressure that keeps the cable in place is provided by the cable head, while the bit inside the computer is just a solid block with nothing that flexes. Rough handling can still damage the latter, but otherwise its expected lifespan is long enough to put in the 'don't bother worrying about it' column.

From what I've read, the USB-C cable does have a pair of springs (one on each side, pressing on slots on the sides of the "tongue"), so it's not just friction that keeps the cable in place.

Here's a picture illustrating this. Also note that the data contacts can fatigue as well!

https://i0.wp.com/blog.adriel.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/...

The USB-C bit is more like a PCB with a shell around it. There's only a small amount of moving metal in the shell, reducing the amount of possible fatigue in the expensive part of the equation.

USB-C is sort of like "inverted lightning". The inside bit on the host looks very much like a lightning cable does.

They don't. The idea is that when it does wear out, replacing a cable is much easier than replacing a connector.

Right, my question was why doesn’t anything wear out in the usb-c female part of the connection. The answer apparently is that the usb-c cable holds the part of the connection that has moveable parts, whereas the lightning connector has the part that holds the cable in place in the device itself, so once that eventually wears out the cable has nothing to hold it in place.

Regarding your first point, it’s true that the part that wears out in Lightning is in the port, but on the flip side, the port of the USB-C is much more fragile (the internal “tongue” or whatever you want to call it is prone to breakage). There might be some hard data available on breakage rates, but anecdotally I’d say it’s really a wash in terms of durability.

However, where USB-C is really indisputably better than Lightning is that it has 3x the amount of pins (24 in USB-C vs 8 in Lightning), which will always mean that USB-C will be able to outperform Lightning significantly.

I'm curious to hear more on this. I have a number of USB-C devices and have never seen breakage on the internal port (only fluff buildup).

I had a Macbook where the power cord got stepped on, the cable head turned 45º or so and continued to function with no port damage whatsoever.

I don’t know how it happened (never dropped it or yanked the cord hard or anything like that), but I’ve had the little USB-C tongue thing get a slightly bent downwards in the port which made it very difficult to plug in. I’ve seen a lot of other comments on the internet about how it breaks easily (it’s a common argument whenever this topic comes up on r/Android or r/Apple). I’ve never personally had a port fully break on me, but I could see it happening.

Anyone have long-run comparisons on fluff buildup? Hard to gauge changes in clothing / cases / etc I guess, unless you literally live with two phones.

My wife broke the USB C port on my T470 when she threw a cushion at me (i was winding her up over something). It tore the connector shell off the board and lifted traces when the cushion landed fairly lightly on it after hitting me. Fortunately it has an old style charging port so I just use that. I didn’t use it for anything else.

But cheap USB-C connectors are crap. And USB-C connectors that are mounted on the motherboard of the device are a sin (Apple don’t do this - well done Apple!)

That really does seem like an implementation issue and not a connector standard issue. Connectors should at least be secured with through-hole pins for the casing IMHO.

They were on this machine. 4 through hole anchors. The shell deformed and ripped the other pins out. The issue is the mechanical leverage vs an 8 layer board vs connector sizing.

I've got a sad single port macbook on my desk here that has issues as the plug hole seems to have got wider and it doesn't make connections reliably with cables that plug into monitors.

I think Apple has its priority correct. We can make the pins inside iPhone extremely durable to the point when wear out happens you should be buying a new phone. Instead of having the tongue inside the Phone which could easily break the whole thing. So to me Lightning is still the better design.

Lightning can do USB 3.0 / 5Gbps, and I could see it possibly support 10Gbps with USB 3.2 2x1. But the problem is the first one operate at 2.5Ghz range which is known to course interference with WiFI and USB 3.2 is operating at close to 5Ghz.

I think on iPhone the problem may be bigger due to how closely packed they are. ( But I could be wrong )

> when wear out happens you should be buying a new phone

That may indeed by Apple's priority, but it's not mine.

Well my iPhone 6 lightning port is till working fine. That is closing to 6 years now. So I think Lightning Port is doing pretty well so far.

1. The part that wears out is inside the phone in Lightning and inside the cable in USB-C

Has this been a problem in practice? We should have enough data now (over 7 years since release) to know whether this is the case.

MiniUSB was horrible for this. The ports would lose the ability to grip cables and there was nothing to do other than replace the entire device.

[edited s/micro/mini]

Samsung service centres swap out the usb socket. It's done in an hour.

Sure, but that assumes your phone is in warranty and your manufacturer will actually fix it in a reasonable amount of time. Even if they do, it's way easier to just replace the cable. The best option for a connector is for the easiest-to-break end to be on the component that's easiest/cheapest to replace.

Back in the day, vendors like Lenovo used to make the DC port easily swappable (separate daughterboard with modular cable to motherboard) because it was perhaps the most common simple wear part to fail. As a warranty tech I was doing this multiple times a day and it could be done in under ten minutes fairly easily. While the repair was of course free for warranty and service plan customers it was very inexpensive (relatively) for non-warranty customers, less than $50 if I recall correctly and that was due to a labor minimum, the part was only a few dollars as billed. Unfortunately even Lenovo has dropped this practice in the course of reducing case sizes and later switching to USB-C.

Of course this was also back when we made such a deal of turnaround time we used to call a taxi courier to deliver warranty units back to corporate customers with the higher end service plans. I'm not sure that you can get this kind of service any more with any vendor without using some small local VAR. I remember vehemently apologizing to electrical utility linemen that we didn't have a part in stock and so they wouldn't get their T50 back until we got the replacement in the next morning.

Perhaps part of this is compensated for by improved longevity in newer cables, but cycle life is rarely the problem (except perhaps on the iffier miniUSB), instead it's dropped/kicked/dragged devices. In general I am pretty frustrated with the decrease in serviceability of devices but this one is especially irritating, since like most people I've had a lot of devices where the charging port failed before everything else. USB-C feels like it represents a step back in a lot of ways because it's basically put the kibosh on magnetic charging interfaces (even more so than patents).

Do you mean mini USB? Micro USB is supposed to be a big improvement in this department.

Yes, I did, sorry - typo on my part.

Anecdote, my iPhone has a busted lightning port after 2 years of fairly normal use. I wish I could just buy a new cable instead of needing to get my phone repaired, especially in the current health climate.

Clean out the port with a tiny pick - the ports probably not busted, just full of stuff.

In my experience this eventually happens to most iPhones. I know it doesn't fit with today's aesthetics but those older phones with rubber caps or sliding doors effectively prevented this issue.

My iPhone stopped charging after about 3 years, so it was definitely a problem for me.

n=1, but the feeling of ‘security’ of cables plugged into my MacBook Pro’s ports seems to have gradually decreased with time. Some are now even slightly position-dependent - I have to be very careful when copying files with some devices not to even slightly nudge the laptop.

This may of course be that the there is too great a variance in the design and manufacture of the male USB – C plugs leading to insecure connections… but either way, it’s worse than any other USB standard (even micro) I’ve used, and much worse than Lightning in this regard, in my experience

For me, this was due to dust/lint build-up, and a 20 second fix. Not on a Macbook though. But generally my USB-C ports have never failed.

I had the 2016 MBP, bought just when it came out, and now the same (long story...), but built in 2020. The ports on the new one seem much more stable - one has to plug it in, and then on the last millimetre there is increased friction really holding it tight. I don't think the ports on my old machine had that feature, and yes, they were very fragile - I'd basically kick off the Time Machine backup on an external drive and leave the room, hoping that it finishes!

The ports on the new one seem more stable, though. Maybe they've iterated and improved it - think about how much time they had to optimise USB A.

This is good to know. You can get replacement USB-C boards[1] for the 2016/2017 MBP, and I've been wondering whether they have the improved ports that newer model years got, or whether the replacement board would wear out as quickly as the original board. Your experience suggests that maybe they're using better ports.

1. https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/MacBook-Pro-Retina-A1706-A1...

The 2020 MacBook Pro has changed that: theres a massive increase in friction/clickiness in the last mm of travel when plugging a cable in. Much more secure than my 2016

Same. If I have to use external media, I put my laptop on the table so I can keep things immobilized.

The 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pros are known for this problem -- supposedly it's fixed in newer models.

n++;

Mine too. The cables no longer clip in, and fall out without good resistance. This appears to be a problem unique to the MacBook though - the cables are fine and my other devices that should experience more wear on the ports are also fine.

I've slowly cycled through the good ports and I've only got one good one left now!

> the part that wears out is inside the phone in Lightning and inside the cable in USB-C

Can't speak to USB-C, but this is definitely a problem with lighting. I've had two phones usimply stop charging, presumably because the internal connector had worn out. Battery was fine, but there was no way to charge it.

Typically it’s not that the port dies but that it fills up with compacted lint to the point that the power pins can no longer make a connection. A careful pick around with a SIM tray tool usually revives it.

Right. If the tongue doesn't "snap" into position, but just mushes, the socket needs cleaning. You'll be amazed at the difference.

You can try with one of those dental picks that looks like a tiny pine tree. But, the last time I cleaned mine I needed a metal pick and a magnifying glass. That stuff really gets compacted. Be careful of the internal pins!

Same - I have an old simless phone that I use for banking and other sensitive apps. It only charges when the cable is just so.

Socket wear is definitely a design failure. Hoping it holds up until I end up replacing my current leaves-the-house phone.

I can pretty much guarantee that it’s not socket wear, but a buildup of lint/dust etc. I’ve got an original iPhone 5s whose lighting port still works perfectly. Needs to be cleaned out every now and then, but it’s durable as balls.

Thanks, but that's simply not the case.

The socket is clean, lint was the first thing I checked when it started happening. The uneven wear on the socket sheath is clearly visible under a magnifier. (This is a 6S.)

My biggest issue with Lightning is that it doesn't support HDMI over the cable. iPhones (and iPads) transmit an encoded stream to the Lighting to HDMI adapters which then gets decoded and converted to HDMI by a chip in the adapter. It adds encoding artifacts and latency.

And it also makes the adapter more expensive and fragile (they can overheat and kill themselves)

> Why can't they make USB-C easier to plug in and reversible?

USB-C is reversible and easy to plug in:

https://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-usb-type-c-phones/

Lightning does plugin easier.

I'm just imagining you with some sort of force meter analyzing exactly how much effort is required to plug in a cable.

they're both easy to the point where comparing is inane

it's not the force, it's the angle.

lightning is much better when you are plugging it in in the dark(for example).

Yeah, it’s also more round, which helps guide the connector, whereas usb is a perfect 90 degrees/perpendicular to the case or wherever

That has not been my experience at all. I find it easier to plug in USB-C in the dark.

Connector specifications literally do specify insertion and removal force in e.g. Newtons, as well as how many times they should withstand unplugging/reconnecting, etc.

They(Apple) designed both. They gave the worse one to the public. I wish they had the forethought to realize that usb-c would become ubiquitous, and people would be calling for it to replace lightning. Now it’s just too late. They will need to eventually adopt the worse connector just bec it will make sense internally for all Apple devices to use the same charger.

Usbc is too big for certain applications. Also, usbc wasn’t out yet

exactly...(was an engineer at Apple before and after lightning came out

USBc is not too big for phones. Lots of phones use USBc now. It's only too big for Apple phones, because Apple will never think their phones are thin enough until you can see through them.

iPhones have been getting thicker since 2014.

Apple TV remote Pencil

Are you perhaps referring to mini USB? USB-C is already reversible.

Is this a joke? USB-C is reversible.

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