Hacker News Reader

Comment by SigmundA | Hacker News Reader

Or for a lot less money just get a motorhome.

My 32' Winnebago sleeps me, wife, kids and dogs has a 4000w generator and 3000w inverter which runs off two golf cart batteries charged by shore, generator, alternator and 300w of solar.

It has 80 gallons of gas, 70 gallons of water, air conditioning, and giant awning and tons of storage. I carry just about all my tools.

It even has a built in desk in the passenger side dash which I can work remote from using the hotspot / router with external antenna.

I driven cross country multiple times towing my Jeep and taken it pretty far off the grid. Its not an off-road vehicle but you would be surprised.

There are a lot of choices in between mine and a Unicat as well, like a 4x4 Class B or Super C. Some of them are starting to do large 48v secondary alternators with lithium banks and no generator while still being able to run the A/C for up to 8 hours before recharging.

View on HN

The problem with RVs (as someone who spent most of last year on the road living in one) is that they are built like garbage, with the poorest quality materials and zero innovation. It is clear that no one has shaken up that industry in decades and the incumbents are lazy. The distribution chain has fat profits for everyone. Huge opportunity for someone to disrupt.

I agree, but a lot of enjoyment can still be had with one. My Winnebago cost about as much as a Model X but the places I have gone, the things I have seen...

Its actually very hard to travel by normal car or air now, we just like taking the RV, the space, bathroom and kitchen while driving down the road, our own bed...

You really do need to be handy to own one at this point, it's like a 70's American car. Well the engine and transmission and chassis is fine but everything around it, wow. Luckily it is easy to work on and modify.

I have thought long and hard about trying to start a "Toyota of RVs", I think if you could make a solid, simple well made RV you could dominate the market.

The closest to a “Toyota of RVs” is probably the Erwin Hymer Group, which is expected to finally - after 5+ years of false starts - bring some products to the US in the next 2-3 years: https://newatlas.com/automotive/hymer-usa-european-designed-...

(Many in the US have never heard of Hymer even though they’re huge in Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymer. They’re now owned by Thor, which owns Airstream, Jayco, and many other RV companies: https://www.thorindustries.com/brands)

Good to investigate in uk

Hymer North America went bankrupt due various finial "irregularities". I believe what was left was bought by Thor. Left a lot of people out in the cold on warranties from my understanding.

If you want quality look at https://advanced-rv.com, not cheap.

Thor planned to acquire Hymer Europe and NA, but discovered the fraud during due diligence and elected not to acquire the NA business (a lot of which was Roadtrek). Thor/Hymer Europe has formed a new US entity for new products. Most of the high-volume brands are a notch down from there.

I agree about Advanced. A notch down would be Safari Condo’s XL Flex and Leisure Travel Vans.

Do you think you're missing something by not being "part" of the environment while driving? As in, you drive through instead of "drive in"? I only drive with the windows down because I want to be a part of the landscape I'm in. I think a motorcycle is the ultimate crystallization of that.

On the hand, if it convincs you make trips you otherwise wouldn't have made, I think it's a win. I love Road tripping because it forces you to deal with stuff, especially if you're doing it in less developed countries. Probably the most fun I've ever had is driving long distance in Africa. You really never know what's going to happen next!

Never understood this fascination with "crapping in the woods" so to speak. We have evolved past not having to do that yet some want to find their way back to the same old for some reason.

In the end, this seems like different goals - some just want to enjoy nature but not live in any delusion that we need to be more paleolithic to have the most authentic experience, others crave this process more than the end location. I identify more with the former group, and an RV sounds like a better bet for people like that.

I would be curious to know which is the least destructive to the places been to and the environment though. If the RV is worse, maybe that's one argument. But I'm not sure that makes sense - someone who stays in the hotel might end up costing more in resources maybe?

I'm not talking about capping in the woods, just needing other people for things is a great way to experience the world: having to go to a restaurant or store to get food, go to a motel to sleep, etc.

Like poor neighborhoods have so much more community than rich ones because people genuinely need each other to get by. When you're completely independent and don't need anyone, I think you've lost one of the things that gives life its value.

That's fair, but I would wager that countries where RVs make sense (US mainly) is a disjoint set from countries where you have a rich community that's also affordable. If I'm traveling the states by a motorcycle or car I'm stuck with having my meals often at a subway and staying in a super 8 (assuming you're middle class).

I feel the opposite, I have never seen as much of the landscape as through the giant window in my RV while driving. Its one thing I look forward to is just the drive and the stuff seen along the way while having all the normal conveniences.

Also towing a Jeep with us makes a huge difference being able to really explore anywhere around where we are staying and see the sights. I really love Colorado and a Jeep is the way to really see it.

If I was single I might have a smaller RV with just a motorcycle, but with the whole family this setup is perfect, and it seems like kids have really got a lot out of it, they frequently talk about the places we been in the RV and love traveling in it.

I have a 20 year old conversion van. Lot of space if just two people. And you get a good bed and not have to deal with sleeping on the ground or tents. Have a secondary battery which runs an Engel cooler and a small microwave.

Downside: No bathroom, shower, stove, etc.

Upside: No plumbing to maintain. Lot smaller than an RV.

C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate?

I don't think so. More like the "Weltraumputze" [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/mediaviewer/rm357719449... at [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/mediaviewer/rm394629324... from there [3] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/mediaviewer/rm285577420... or there [4] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/mediaviewer /rm3862407169

Right? [5] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/mediaviewer/rm150543104...

You get what you pay for.

Class A diesel RVs are designed for retired couples to drive around the country and live quite well. They plummet in price the first few years and if you're past 10 years old (usually harder to get a loan), the price drops more, often to 25% or less of the new price.

They have pretty beefy systems, with 7kw diesel generators quite common. The engine and chassis will be designed to flat tow a car (or a huge trailer).

And some have pretty interesting features, like tile floors, two bathrooms, in-floor heating, two bathrooms and washer/dryers.

but yeah, choose a good brand.

Yeah sorta, its amazing how bad the QA is even on expensive motorhomes. If you are used to buying a reliable modern car you will be in for a shock when purchasing even a high end RV when it comes to the quality and integration.

Yeah, one of my friends just bought a brand new RV (I don't know the details), but spent basically a month after purchase getting a whole bunch of QA fixes made, from the minor and cosmetic to fairly major.

Get a class C that's built on an off the shelf truck chassis (usually Mercedes Sprinter or Ford E-350/450) and at least the chassis will be reliable. You'll still have to deal with problems with the RV parts but at least you'll be able to drive it (unless your problem is that the slide-out won't retract)

I agree with this statement and I should have been clearer previously. When I complain about build quality and lack of innovation, it is solely with respect to what the RV assembler does with the Mercedes or Ford chassis.

it's better to build on a spartan or freightliner chassis

It all depends on whether it's a class-C type cutaway where the cab is built by the chassis manufacturer (so you get a steel cab plus airbags and other safety features), or a class-A built on a stripped chassis where everything but the frame and engine comes from the RV manufacturer -- many of those are essentially a lightweight box on top of the frame and will disintegrate in a crash, and you'll likely not survive a rollover crash. Even with a cutaway chassis, depending on how much of the cab they cutover for cab access, you may not fare too well, but much better than with nothing but a wood and fiberglass box surrounding you.

With a cutaway, the manufacturer takes care of all of the steering linkages, driving controls, etc so you have some assurance of quality -- everything related to driving is built by the company with the most experience in building trucks and cars rather than the RV manufacturer.

I don't know what you get in the $300K+ Newmars and other expensive rigs since that's way out of my (and most people's) price range.

In Canada a Class A brand new can be $400k+. A 10 year old Class A at 25% of the price is still a $100k vehicle. And because they are built like garbage, the repairs start adding up.

I am convinced that if you do the math, it makes more sense for the couple months a year a retired couple will travel to just buy a nice vehicle and do AirBNBs and have no compromise in terms of Shower length, amount of hot water, and other amenities.

Also, don’t get me started on the cost of fuel relative to a normal vehicle. Their fuel economy is abysmal. Think: Russian Tank.

If you just do the math, yeah, buy a fuel efficient travel vehicle and do hotels / cabins / Airbnb.

Just not for me, have done plenty of that and I like my RV better. I can drive 8 hours straight with the kids no stops to a great state park and be chilling by 3pm do it again the next day all the way across the country sleeping in my own bed.

Yes its horrible mileage, I mean I am dragging my whole house with me, but thats what makes it nice too. Its not for everyone but if you like the whole "super-carrier" thing you probably will like it.

I can tell you, you are rather an exception in this mindset.

There are tons of drawbacks in reality compared to romantic idea of 'dragging your whole home with you'. Financially it doesn't make sense. You become a slave of your motor home. It drives like shit.

But far worst for me is, you create your own bubble. You travel, yet want to keep your cozy 'home'. That's completely opposite to why I travel - experience unique, vastly different, exotic places, interact with strangers, other cultures, eat local food etc. Dive deep into the place. This is much more interesting goal of traveling compared to just 'seeing places and staying comfortable'.

You might think we're comparing uncomparable - cruising around rather homogeneous US vs traveling i say South east Asia. Not at all - here in Europe we have such a diversity of cultures that those 'exotic' experiences can be had quite easily with few hundred kms of drive. South is nothing like north, east vs west the same. Every country is pretty unique.

I agree a big RV seems like a US thing and the kind of travel you are talking about appealed to me more when I was younger, but with a family and kids its really nice to go explore during the day and go by to our bubble at night and move on to the next place.

We have seen a lot of diverse stuff in the US and financially, well traveling for pleasure doesn't really make sense, its worth it to me so far.

I did do a good amount of work to make my RV drive better, again if someone could make a simple well made RV I think the demand would be high, its really nice way to travel and see the US.

> In Canada a Class A brand new can be $400k+. A 10 year old Class A at 25% of the price is still a $100k vehicle.

Yes, they can also be $125k. Your AirBNB option can also cost $4,000/night. Picking a price toward the top of the line does not make for a good argument.

And yes, mileage is not great, but it’s not as bad as a tank - a Class A diesel can easily get 8-9 MPG without trying, and a bit of care can get you to see 10-12.

Your point is well taken, though are there actually Class A RVs that, brand new, cost $125k?

Yes. In the US you can find brand new 29’ Class A RVs for less than half that, but quality is relative with price paid (aka, it’ll be cheap crap).

They're built like crap because they have to be lightweight and affordable.

They are not lightweight. In the case of many Class C motorhomes build on the Ford E chassis, the manufacturer has used plywood for everything. There are certainly opportunities to build with marginally more expensive materials to make major weight gains.

For the uninitiated, what materials are we talking about here?

The plywood mentioned by GP is kind of heavy, and it needs framing for stiffness too. The molded steel used in "real" cars and trucks would be lighter. So would something handmade from carbon. Just thinking by analogy with boat hulls, I don't see why fiberglass wouldn't work either. My parents have a pickup camper the walls of which are made from Styrofoam or something similar. This seems to work; I can climb on the roof to adjust the antenna and I'm fat.

Coach motorhomes are kind of an idiot trap. You're better off with a tow vehicle and fifth wheel. The mileage is better, and you can unhitch and run day trips without having to lift your jacks and unplug everything every single day, then come home and do it all over again every single day. A lot of people end up dragging a car behind their motorhome as a result, when you could just do a fifth wheel and a truck instead and end up with a much easier rig to manage.

The sprinter type campervan setups are a little more practical but obviously trade for space.

I have no need for a pickup, so I'm better served by a 25 foot RV than an 18 foot truck plus a 25 foot fifth wheel. Plus I'd have to find parking for 2 vehicles that don't fit in my garage, while with the RV I need just one space.

It's debatable whether the truck+trailer is easier to manage than the RV + small car. Though since we tend to take the RV to state parks and such where we don't need to drive after we park, we rarely take the car.

Everyone has different needs, but having owned pretty much every type of RV available, I'd say a truck with a fifth-wheel is much easier to mange than a coach with a flat-tow car.

A fifth-wheel is easy to backup when needed. A coach with a flat-tow car attached can't back up at all.

And as long as you have enough truck for the size fifth-wheel you have they tow much better in wind and handle curvy roads well.

While it's true that you can't back up with a towed vehicle, the advantage of the RV is that you don't have to -- only takes a few minutes to pull the pins and free the car and generally when I'm towing the car, I want to use it, so I'm going to unhook it anyway when I park, may as well unhook it before I back in the space (especially since I typically want to back in all the way and put the car in front)

But as you say, different use cases for different people - if you already have or want a truck (or other tow vehicle), a towed RV makes a lot more sense. But I don't want a daily driver that's large enough to be a tow vehicle and it makes no sense to buy a tow vehicle that's only used for towing.

I second this. The thing that really turns me off about a motorhome is having this drive train that you only use maybe a dozen times a year but that you want to trust to take your family on a long trip. I'd much rather put that trust (and maintenance expense) in a regularly driven pickup.

Plus when the trailer falls apart, which they all do because they're built like crap, you can just replace it independent of the pickup.

And of top of that you have another engine to maintain.

But fifth wheel is an overkill for most:

For most of them you need F-250/350 instead of F-150. F-250 doesn’t drive as nice as F-150 when unloaded. Preferably you need long bed (not to hit the cab when backing up). With the crew cab this is the longest truck possible. Modern diesels are expensive to run and maintain, 7.3L Godzilla just shipped, you want to give it couple years to get proven...

Then fifth wheel is harder to hitch up and you loose huge portion of bed space. Also bed is nearly impossible to access when hitched up.

Basically, unless you really need the space, go with 25-30ft trailer and F-150 (with 6 1/2ft bed of course, not this short nonsense).

This is an endless debate among RVers, its personal preference.

I can tell you its really nice having the RV be usable down the road for the bathroom and the space.

I tow a 4 door Jeep which is actually much better for getting around and exploring once we are at our destination than a full size truck due it its smaller size and off-road capability.

Hey quick question, what's your goto RV forum/community? Just looking at getting into it this year and planning to rent one about that size for a couple of weeks in August.

http://irv2.com its definitely an older crowd but thats changing somewhat, tons of good info going back many years.

https://www.rvmobileinternet.com for cellular / internet connectivity.

Awesome thank you!!!

Drawback, they are big. Frankly since I don't have a family I'd rather have the truck with the generator and set up my hammock or tent rather than the RV. I can still use the truck as a utility vehicle to do all my hobby projects and use it like I would an RV. With a RV I need another vehicle. (I'm also sure I could rig a solar panel "roof" to the truck for extended trips).

Look at Class B van conversion, the Winnebago Revel is what I would have if single / no kids, I have seen people using as daily driver.

That is pretty neat. But at the same time, I have to say that a F150 is a lot smaller than that. Also, having a truck bed is pretty darn useful if you like to build stuff.

Holy fuck, $174k?!? How well do these hold value and much does it cost to maintain? If it's $30k in the first year, that's approximately the cost of an Airbnb every single night.

$174k is bonkers for that RV. It's a converted Mercedes Sprinter, which has a list price of about $60k (4x4, diesel, long wheelbase, high roof, with a reasonable set of options).

I find it hard to believe Winneago adds $110k of value to the van.

FWIW, if you want a camper van (and not a full RV), Metris conversions are a solid option. PeaceVans (Seattle) has two nice builds - a weekender (bed, pop top, no kitchen nor bath) or a camper (bed, pop top, kitchen, no bath). About $65k for the former and $85 for the latter. Using one of these (or a 40-year old VW Westfalia) limits you to campsites with toilets (or roughing it a bit). The Weekender build is available through your local M-B dealer (via an official up-fitter arrangement).

You have to remember MSRP on an RV is about 30% higher than you would actually pay, its more like 120k new.

You can definitely build your own, many people do, there is a lot of work put into these thing and yes Winnebago makes a profit to do it for you. They are by no means ripping anyone off, good luck finding a 4x4 sprinter Class B for any less brand new. Good luck finding a 4x4 sprinter shell to convert, they are in demand.

Rebel provides good value if you consider most #VanLifers retrofit their stripped Sprinters with an additional 3,000lbs of plywood and another 200lbs of subway tile backsplash. Have fun with that fuel economy!

There is nothing innovative about working with aluminum. As a technically proficient person with a shop I would be reluctant to make full cabinetry and bed frames out of the material because things are just trickier compared to wood.

Savvy of Winnebago to pivot their decades of experience in making things light to a new generation.

Revels have been in crazy demand, and then COVID-19 elevated all RV prices on top of that.

2-6 year old class B's (vans) usually sell in the 40-80k range, depending on the details.

I took our 21" class B motorhome to the hardware store and to get groceries today. It works perfectly fine as a daily driver -- it's a van, after all. Sleeps 2, has kitchen, bathroom, shower, ...

Check out "Captain Fantastic" with Viggo Mortensen. A pretty good road movie where he uses an old school bus as a motor home for his hippy family.

Did you buy your RV new with all of those features or did you customize yourself? What model did you end up going with?

I added the inverter, solar and cellular antenna and router.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com