China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died.
As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole China being a sort of extended family. The elders and superiors should be obeyed, not necessarily because they are better people, but because this represents stability. In turn, these elders and superiors should be better people, with traits as benevolence,integrity and righteousness.
I am happy I live in Europe, not China, but looking at the state of most western democracy's today, I can have some understanding for this vision.
There were hundred of other thoughts at the time and Confucianism hasn't risen. Confucianism was used as a tool to solidify the power within the Empire. The only thing you will do is kneel and obey.
And China aspires to long-term stability first is not about China in itself, but the long term control of power. Which for thousands of years has proved what should now be a famous line, Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
You seem articulate thousands of years of history, and one of the most ancient philosophy and culture system, and it’s impact in so few words that I dare not to challenge - because, as a Chinese myself, I never gained enough understanding on Confucius, and had no capacity to summarize its impact or origin to even fellow Chinese friends.
In the end, I doubt your credential as a competent commentator on such a complicated topic.
But I have no intellectual capacity to either endorse or deny your statement.
If you depended on your neighbor's cooperation, the ideals of Confucianism help the village survive.
If your neighbors were like the Americans who refuse to put on a mask, your whole village would starve to death within the generation. The theory explains why individualism was suppressed and collective values so uplifted in Chinese culture.
The theory doesn't explain anything, since it doesn't even get the agricultural facts right.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/05/08/310477497/ri...
You got it all wrong.
What you say makes no sense to a Chinese not in its literal, or proverbial sense, and talk like these usually get grannies pointing finger to foreigners on the bus, quietly giggling "oh, those foreigners thinking something on China again..."
1. 99% regular Chinese citizens can't give more .... about what some ancient philosopher wrote. They have more important things to care, like earning a living. It is like telling that most Americans are... Aristotelians because few of them were of Greek extraction (even when their descendants today cannot say a word in Greek...)
2. Chinese culture was not formed by ancient dictums. The culture of China was razed with fire in seventies, and rebuilt from blank sheet. The level of "culture" of a regular citizen was reduced to just being able to read, and write, and even that was not a given.
And even before the revolution, Chinese culture people knew had zero things in common to what these people think. The man would be laughed out not only by grannies on the bus today, but equally so a century ago.
3. If there is any cultural imprint on China at all, it would be Russia. Chinese north of Shanghai are effectively indistinguishable by what is in their head from most Russians, other than them speaking Chinese.
Only a more rural, impassable, and much less well off Southern China managed to preserve few vestiges of what China was before the revolution.
To most Chinese citizens, a travel to HK, or Taiwan is a giant cultural shock. It is because them suddenly realising themselves being so much less Chinese than they though they were.
Everything within cultural gravity of Beijing, and Northeast has been molded very early in history of PRC, and was pretty much an attempt to copy USSR 1-to-1 before Mao cut ties.
Given that I know a lot of both Hong Kong people and mainland Chinese people, I am really not sure from where you're getting this idea.
Now I do see a fairly negative response here, without anything to replace it. So make us all on hacker news one of the lucky 10 000 today: What does China aspire to? What are the overarching themes in the Chinese view of the world, and how do they differ from the Western ones?
I recently learned some about the Chinese vision. If it's wrong, I'd like to learn something more.
US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain.
And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.
In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base in Tartus. China has no regional allies whatsoever.
The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.
How has Iraq benefited? What benefit do the people of Saudi Arabia see from our relationship? How many of the US led South American regime changes have benefitted the populace?
>It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.
We sell them out constantly. None of those "partners" have other options. Working against the US means most of the world refusing to interact with you, or a regime change on the horizon.
America’s efforts at regime change in the America’s are an appalling catalogue of screwups and bloody disasters. No argument there.
But then NATO has been a useful and very effective alliance, effectively keeping Russia in check. Ask the Baltic States or the Eastern European states how they feel about it. We’ve had setbacks like Ukraine, but boy it could have been a _lot_ worse. Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines and Japan have benefited hugely. Even Vietnam is now becoming a regional ally.
ISIS exists because of US action, they are not benefitting from this.
>Saudi Arabia was terrified Saddam would attack them next, and we now know that was his intended next move after a Kuwait.
Not only is this just untrue, Saddam Hussein discussed the invasion of Kuwait with the US before the invasion, our deployment of troops in Saudi Arabia stemming from that event has caused numerous problems for the people of the country.
>Also the US is the prime obstacle to Iranian operations against the Saudis
Though I'm not sure how the citizens of Saudi Arabia are benefitting from this in your version of events, the Saudi troops should be well trained from their ongoing war in Yemen.
>But then NATO has been a useful and very effective alliance, effectively keeping Russia in check. Ask the Baltic States or the Eastern European states how they feel about it
On the other hand, NATO encroachment could be blamed for much of Russia's aggression. Crimea lasted twenty years under Ukrainian control after all, but would NATO continue letting Russia access it's Black Sea port?
You do know about the industrial espionage by Echelon, right? On that front that pretty much puts US in the same bucket as China.
Only 1 example of many:
"In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech.[71] As German intelligence services are forbidden from engaging in industrial or economic espionage, German companies are frequently complaining that this leaves them defenceless against industrial espionage from the United States."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...
Note German intelligence wasn’t so much complaining that the Americans did it, as much as that they weren’t allowed to do it back.
EU doesn't use their secret intelligence against allies for economical gain, US clearly does.
This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?
As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality.
Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades.
I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves.
Just like an airplane on autopilot will fly aimlessly until it runs out of fuel, or runs into a mountain, both Xi, and Putin just want their systems to last as much as they can, and if they need to invade few countries to sate primal urges of their polities, they think "so be it"
The government has clear ideals. The problem is the ways they're going about achieving them and whether some of them (like erasing the separate cultures within their borders) is justifiable.
Haha
> working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity,
Haha
Ask any middle class Chinese citizen earning his cup of rice. If you really believe that, lots of Chinese grannies are laughing at you now.
And China is chipping away at its various cultures and pushing for one Mandarin-speaking Han identity and achieving that goal quite quickly.
I have no clue what point you're trying to make.
> I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves.
I could say the same about the US.
To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China
This does not happen in China or Russia.
but mostly to act it out as performance art because people have been marching for decades now and yet here we are. The US is the only country that kind of lives in a permanent television version of itself, with people setting trashcans on fire for justice or throwing a window in, while a few dozen journalists capture some very authentic images[1]
People in Russia or China are realistic enough to know that this is in itself nothing but entertainment. The US is in a sense the most advanced security state on the planet, because pretty much nobody else has manged to internalize its own opposition to that degree.
I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere.
What is it about the anthem or flag that makes you see it differently?
Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same.
What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing.
At least China and Russia consider healthcare a human right like any developed country. The US health care system is depraved.
> What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing.
US’s reaction is hugely different than HK’s.
Not a single HK cop was actually penalized, let alone fired or charged, for their misconducts during the year long protests. The only HK cop that was charged was the one who posted posters criticizing the police force. [1]
By contrast, numerous US cops were fired and charged. Not to mention two weeks before George Floyd was killed, a South Asian was also killed by HK cops by kneeing on his neck. [2] The victim’s name wasn’t made public, not a single HK cop was penalized, and they went on to keep doing the same to HK protesters a month later (no casualty this time) [3].
Disbanding the HK police is one of the core demands of Hong Kong protesters [4]. While US has made some police reforms, nothing like this happened in Hong Kong, except HK police just got more powerful under the new National Security Law.
And you tell me US is the same as HK?
[1] http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB/20200118-%E4%BC%91%E... (in Chinese)
[2] https://www.hk01.com/%E7%AA%81%E7%99%BC/471390/%E9%9D%9E%E8%... (in Chinese)
[3] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/15/i-couldnt-breathe-hong-kon...
[4] https://news.ltn.com.tw/news/world/breakingnews/2925727 (in Chinese)
Doing the bare minimum is just PR, eg: cops kneeling with protestors and then an hour later using chemical weapons and beating on the same peaceful protestors.
If the distinction is: China addresses challenges to oppression with censorship while the US addresses it with marketing and ineffectual “concessions” then we’re saying the same thing.
You are comparing what happened in one city against what happened across the entire country. Look at the actions of the NYPD during these protests. They have also received virtually no punishment despite their range of heinous acts.
An occasional incident nationwide that drives up enough outrage to force a punishment doesn't grant us some moral high ground.
Now I just focus on NYPD: NYPD charged an officer for using a chokehold. [1]
No officer was charged in HK after the year long protests for their misconducts and brutality.
Side note: Numerous HK protesters were also victims of sexual harassment or sexual violence during arrest or detention. A 19-year-old girl was gangraped by police officers in a police station and got pregnant, and the police threatened to arrest her for “making false statements”. She defended her claims and had to flee to Taiwan. [2][3]
Any similar incident in NYC?
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/nyregion/nypd-officer-cho...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3-OZaEcCA
[3] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/05/13/hong-kong-woman-who-accuse...
Yes
https://theintercept.com/2019/08/30/nypd-anna-chambers-rape-...
Anna Chambers wasn’t threatened with the being arrested for “making false statements” and can still live in New York. The Hong Kong victim (who got pregnant and had to undergo an abortion) had to flee to Taiwan for her own safety.
US cops commit a crime and get away with minimal punishment. HK cops commit a crime and the victims get arrested.
Another example: the boy shot by live rounds by the cop in this video [1] was charged for attempted robbery and obstructing the police [2], even though the event was triggered by poor policing according to an experienced Australian officer [3].
See the difference?
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm_s0fm4hH0
[2] https://www.thestandnews.com/society/%E8%A5%BF%E7%81%A3%E6%B... (in Chinese)
[3] https://twitter.com/JeromeTaylor/status/1194074222768771072
Anna Chambers may not have been threatened with arrest, but her name was dragged through the mud by the tabloids, and is likely still at risk from police retribution.
The two are not identical, but the differences do not give any moral high ground to the US.
US cops committing a crime and arresting the victim is also commonplace. Search for any instance of planting evidence or any of a score of incidents from these protests.
Threat of arrest from Police Chief and repeated bogus charges from Department of Justice to defend police crimes mean a totally broken system. That’s another level.
> Both of Schoolcraft's claims were settled in 2015, with him receiving $600,000 for the NYPD portion of the lawsuit
At least US has a healthy justice system as the last line of defense.
The HK justice system is compromised. There is an injunction that forbids anyone to reveal police officers and their family members’ information, in the name of fighting against doxxing. For some time, the media couldn’t reveal the name of any cops, even if they were being investigated for their own crime and appear in court (now allowed). [0]
The drug trafficking charge against the daughter of a cop was recently dismissed by the Department of Justice, as if qualified immunity extends to cop’s family members. [1]
The justice system was eroded further by the National Security law. A pro-Beijing legislator recently claimed that media may violate the law by covering police brutality. [2]
Even before the law was passed, two journalists were charged for “rioting” and may face 10-year imprisonment for covering protestors’ storming of the Legislative Council last year. [3]
Until US has a similarly broken justice system that goes after the media to hide police brutality, it can never match HK.
[0] https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/03_police_message/iio_1957....
[1] https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%B8%AF%E8%81%9E/article/2020... (in Chinese)
[2] https://hk.appledaily.com/local/20200702/T4XFP6NPMN6FYXZMNJZ... (in Chinese, paywalled)
[3] https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%B8%AF%E8%81%9E/article/2020... (in Chinese)
Of course millions are clamoring to immigrate to Russia for a better life - it's a rich, stable country!
They literally do.
Not saying the US doesn't have problems, but this laundry list is mild for let's say 70% of the world's population.
And to be fair the "woke" press (including some national "unbiased" news sources) just make the problem worse.
But I guess the grass is always greener
> To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China
Only if they ignore how things happen on this countries or is sheltered.
Now, about "mishandling a pandemic", yes, it could have been done better, but I think a lot of countries are not handling it better, they just didn't get the check yet and/or are putting the problem under the table.
Not really.
Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal.
Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'.
Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.
Depends what you mean by "treat it as foreign". It's under a different legal system, it has its own currency, and migration between China and Hong Kong is controlled. If you enter China on a single-entry visa, you won't be able to get back in (without a new visa) after visiting Hong Kong.
Its action of directly imposing the national security law upon HK only asserts its position, that Chinese government doesn't see there is any need to start negotiation, with anyone.
For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian.
Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its existence as a country of a slave?
How do you live as a big man you tell you are when your driving impulse is a preoccupation with your vulnerabilities, and your identity as a power holder being that of an enemy to your own people, having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil?
This is the reason of immense insecurity of ego, and character you see there through the history. And that cutthroat, survivalist attitude is also because of that. And the incessant urges to do chest trumping, and prove themselves are also because of that.
Not true. Most of Chinese history is under a unified regime. The years between 1850-1950 is an outlier in Chinese history.
I don't see China's actions here as insecure. HK never really has a chance to be separate from China, that is just its geopolitical destiny. It is more like Xi or CCP's assertion than vulnerability that leads to this legislation. It is the classical Asian parenting techniques, just manifest at a much larger scale.
BTW: I do read Chinese history books, and in Chinese. :)
It was basically the khan saying them "I will back you if you submit a bigger chunk of Russian land to me"
It was like that with Mongols, and many other foreign invaders before, and after them. Both by Muscovy, and by duchies apposing it.
All isn't as white and black as "we have ideals and they're the baddies". The US has a lot of negative things too like x40 guns per citizen [0] or a prohibitively expensive healthcare [1]
I'd also like to learn Mandarin, but that's on me.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_systems_by_country...
This is the same kind of destructive and pointlessly cynical statement that you're arguing against.
How would these "ideals" stop the Chinese action in Hong Kong? Would they lead us to invading China again to force Hong Kong into Western hands, killing god knows how many millions this time?