Homelessness: The Problem That Even Silicon Valley Can’t Seem to Solve
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This is very closely related to the idea of reform vs. revolution. Sometimes you just need to burn the whole thing down to get the outcome you want.
But the money might have to come from the government. Private prisons don't seem to mind.
> Between 2011 and 2012, SF spent $157 million on homeless services. By the 2015-2016 fiscal year, it was up to $242 million. In the most recent 2019-2020 budget proposals, the figure hit more than $364 million. But the consensus remains that more is needed.
(Source: https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-home... )
That money's not going to the homeless people. It's going to the people who run the services to support them. You think they'd want to see homelessness end?
And, indirectly, the Police make money from homelessness because they can use it to get their budgets increased.
But no, they can’t do that. It would piss too many people off. The problem with homelessness is that it’s always someone else’s problem. Everyone agrees that it should be dealt with, just that no one wants to deal with it themselves.
One of the problems with homelessness is that it's a systemic issue.
Another problem with homelessness is that it's dozens of problems, because different people have different reasons for being homeless.
A mother living with her two kids in a tent could see most of her problems solved with a monthly cash injection; she could get an apartment, make sure her kids have sufficient care while she works, or just take care of them herself using the stipend.
The guy who sits on a bench howling at the moon because he's convinced it's implanted digital worms in his teeth? If you cut him a check, he's not going to be equipped to spend it in a way that's beneficial for himself.
You also don’t have to divide it equally among homeless people. You could start with a few and add more to the program over time, as the endowment grows. Those getting the money would be assessed based on potential to get off the streets permanently and find jobs, housing, etc.
Because then it pays for itself. Look at the Nobel prizes. Look at Harvard University. Look at the Norwegian pension fund. These are backed by HUGE endowments which pay for themselves with profits earned on the market. They are also extremely stable.
On the other hand, look at Social Security in the US. Any sort of benefits program paid for by taxes is exposed to political interference. That makes them inherently unstable.
Seeing the most downtrodden people in society continually crushed is an awful experience for people on both sides of the table.
I'd encourage you to talk to a single person actually working on the problem. Literally anyone.
Yes, I think those people want to see homelessness end. Why else would you want a career in that field?
Climate scientists also want action to be taken to fight climate change, even if it might put them out of a job. Folks who work for the UN to tackle world hunger want world hunger to end, even if it puts them out of a job.
I don't think rank-and-file workers are psychopaths.
Yes, any proper non corrupted police would love to see that.
At 40k a year per homeless person..how are they homeless. Answer: they aren't getting 40k of benefits.
There's a really interesting character from SF who posts on twitter (@MyTwolffamily) about his personal experience of being a homeless drug addict, it might be enlightening to read some of his posts.
SF's budget is basically $40-50k per homeless person yet each person receives a fraction of that, maybe 10%, its incredibly inefficient. Its even been called "The Homeless Industrial Complex" by a variety of outspoken locals.
The people who want a career in that field who actually interact with the homeless are pretty detached from the big decisions.
https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-cons...
When Trump said he wanted to eliminate it, tons of politicians and whatnot defended it as essential to getting cell phones into the hands of poor people.
Trump did reform it rather than eliminate it, putting stricter requirements and adding things (less payment to the companies, must be a smart phone, must provide some data, etc.). But up until this, I knew of one company that had about 30 employees and earned over $200mil per year directly from the government operating as an MVNO. The industry was rife with fraud (and likely still is for all I know, it was absolutely shocking before which is why they reformed it, but hopefully it's better now) - recipients had to fill out a stack of paperwork, but they would pay independent contractors to go to methadone clinics, homeless shelters, etc. with pre-filled paperwork and get people to just sign their name and hand them a phone. It was also a scam for the recipients who were in on it somewhat, as they would switch providers every month or sign up for multiple, and get gift cards (or booze, cigarettes etc.) from the independent contractors for doing so. Companies I worked with would have churn up to 80% per month so they constantly had to refill with "new" people who the independent contractors found.
I have seen so much fraud in various government programs that have a veneer of "doing good" but the end result is legions of private companies that execute the mandate and collect the check. If you are an enterprising person and want easy money, government programs are a great place to look, which is sadly why it attracts so much fraud.
Give free or extremely cheap housing to every homeless person and the lucrative real estate companies and investment funds will disappear.
Even if you truck in prefab, where will you put it if no one will zone or sell you the land to place it on? Everyone wants to be upwardly mobile, and many signal status with their housing. Would you live in a trailer park with your kids? Would you invite your coworkers over for game night to the double wide? No one wants to live next to trailer parks, I know because I try to buy and build them. Existing trailer parks are valuable because zoning for new ones is incredibly difficult, and the cap rates (return on investment) are higher than single family homes or smaller multi family.
Perhaps you'll argue that prefab isn't a trailer. Fair. People still want to live in the best neighborhood with the best schools their money can buy, which is rarely a prefab or inexpensively constructed community (see: signaling, with a dash of entrenched interests such as taxing authorities and builder profits).
Remember white flight? Very similar. Humans are tribal, will always seek status, and always measure themselves against others. These are deep rooted socioeconomic problems to solve. It's not just a matter of spitting housing out of a factory Gigafactory style.
People don't mind. If you note, demand for suburban properties is still high. The more land you buy, the less density = better quality of life while also appreciating in value year over year. If people wanted dense city life, why are they fleeing metros now that they can work remote?
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-update-people-fl...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-are-eyeing-homes...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/new-york-exo...
And the cities are expensive because the density in American cities is still laughably low. We live in Seattle and we had to settle for a house because the kind of a condo that I want simply doesn't physically exist. Yes, living in a condo next to 2.5 restaurants in a middle of single family zoned area is worse than living in a house - but that's due to lack of density, SFH areas simply suck. The dense land is extremely scarce, so all they build there are overpriced luxury condos - they can get away with that because the demand is huge.
Some, yes. Others because they want the space. I am SO glad I am not living in an apartment. I'm really enjoying my garden, not having to hear my neighbors, etc.
> suburbs are super cheap everywhere except SFBA
I wish!!! (Portland suburb dweller here)
You're aware of how the pandemic uniquely impacted New York, causing 17,000+ deaths in the city alone, along with the massive lock down that accompanied them, right?
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2019/estimate...
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/demographic-and-e... (near the bottom)
> Likewise, recent U.S. population growth also has been uneven. Urban counties have grown at roughly the overall national rate of 13% since 2000. Suburban and small metropolitan areas have grown more briskly. Rural counties have lagged, and half of them have fewer residents now than they did in 2000.
> Suburbs growing more rapidly than rural or urban areas
> About 46 million Americans live in the nation’s rural counties, 175 million in its suburbs and small metros and about 98 million in its urban core counties.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/26/us-popu...
> Newly released census data for the first seven years of this decade signal a resumption of the population dispersal that was put “on hold” for a good part of the post-Great Recession period. The Census Bureau’s annual county and metropolitan area estimates through 2017 reveal a revival of suburbanization and movement to rural areas along with Snow Belt-to-Sun Belt population shifts. In addition, the data show a new dispersal to large- and moderate-sized metro areas in the middle of the country—especially in the Northeast and Midwest. If these shifts continue, they could call into question the sharp clustering of the nation’s population—in large metropolitan areas and their cities—that characterized the first half of the 2010s.
In fact, the very existence of these zoning laws shows that people would be willing to live more densely than they are currently allowed to. They wouldn't exist if people didn't want it (you don't need laws to prevent density if nobody actually wants density).
And the fact that they are fleeing looks a lot more like it is due to high costs than actual quality of life. I grew up in suburban America...it was boring as shit and I'm never going back. Literally the worst quality of life you could possibly present me with.
There is urban housing demand, simply not as much as suburban demand.
Thanks for clarifying the motivation behind your opinion.
What I wrote is a bit long for a headline. What they wrote sums it up nicely.
E.g. the idea that you can handle fundamental social problems though purly technological solutions if absurd but exactly that idea is commonly pushed by SV.
Really? Which SV companies are pushing that idea?
And here's the tricky part, if one city puts more money on the problem, the problem will only get bigger, because it will attract homeless people from other cities (though I can't blame them).
This is not an issue that's solvable only from the criminality/police side but not exclusively from the social side neither.
The vast majority of homeless people are homeless for financial reasons, like the loss of income or the lack of affordable housing. The fastest growing demographic of homeless people are entire families, because of financial reasons.
Therefore the most effective solutions are economic and perhaps anti-trust.
Even the extremely "progresive" mayor pointed it out.
SF's homelessness is not about any of the things you've noted.
I’m going to avoid these political / non-technical threads on HN going forward.
Though affordability issues seem to be the main issue today (especially) in CA and also that some statistics consider homeless people that are living with family or acquaintances by necessity.
Because you know, it isn't clear how and if solving homelessness will make you money.
Be careful what you wish for -- at least you can vote people out of office when you don't think the government is doing a good job. I'd hate to see welfare policies managed by Google.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1...
It has way more to do with the ACLU suing Florida and the resulting SCOTUS decision was that it was illegal to involuntarily commit someone. Yes, that means you can't put someone who's out of their mind into an institution until they're actually dangerous and they commit a crime. The longest psych hold (5150) is only about 72 hours, its not long enough to treat a serious condition.
Since POTUS44 its been mandatory to purchase commercial health insurance and those who cannot afford it have been left with a problem.
I'll overshare a bit but my exgirlfriend was bipolar, she had great care and she still killed herself.
Mental healthcare is a big problem for a variety of reasons and SF and the bay area are a magnet because of how many services are available. I got to spend a lot of time with a social worker in the bay area who dealt with this exact problem, they basically confirmed that people came here for money and services and the success rate was sub 25%.
This is not a problem that tech can solve.
This is not a problem that the homeless industrial complex will solve for a variety of reasons.
This is a problem that govt has to solve, and the govt has more than enough money to figure it out and yet they don't.
You'd need to commit to ongoing, indefinite financial support for the person and for the maintenance of the housing.
Even for people who initially became homeless because they couldn't afford housing, a lot of those other factors have become part of what keeps them homeless. Just giving them housing doesn't solve any of those other problems.
I also never said it is possible to solve homelessness by just giving housing to homeless people.
Now, to respond to your reasoning....
Your comment exhibits some willful blindness. SF housing, for example, is crazy expensive. Research shows that expensive rental rates correlate to higher homeless rates. If you reduce the concentration of housing demand by letting technocrat employees work from home in remote places (Utah, Colorado, other scenic millennial hotspots), that reduces demand for SF housing. Lowered demand reduces price, which eases the threshold at which a homeless person is able to cover the cost of housing.
Cost of housing is but one of many situational factors. That said, it would be somewhat ignorant to look at homelessness as a non-economic problem.
For many homeless people, the issue may not be intrinsic to their mental state, but rather the result of situational factors. One simple proof of this is the fact that many people come out of homelessness after a while. Instead of blaming the person, we should evaluate the situational factors. Often, one of those factors is money. However, other situational factors can reinforce poverty as well.
All people experience shocks at certain points in their lives. If such a shock comes at a time of housing insecurity, it may result in homelessness. Illness is one such shock.
Poor and disadvantaged people must often be more sophisticated than their more-well-off counterparts to accomplish the same tasks. Imagine, if you will, a person without credit who needs to borrow a few thousand dollars to buy a car to get to work. That person may have to go to friends or family. If he qualifies for a bank loan, the rate will be higher than what would be offered to a different person with superior credit. And the loan amount may be less. Thus, he may have to buy a used, possibly problematic vehicle. The debt service of the loan, plus maintenance cost of the vehicle, will be elevated versus a new car at a fair interest rate. If the neighborhood is insecure, insurance will be more expensive.
Those are not solely money problems. However, they work in concert to bleed funds from the individual, preventing him from saving money. That's one example of a poverty trap.
How is it in the interest of tech companies to have skyrocketing real estate prices and as a result, the need to pay huge salaries to their employees so they can afford the cost of living in SF? Surely it would be in the interest of Google, Facebook et al. to be able to pay their employees less and have the cost of their own commercial real estate fall?
Do they not have enough political influence? Or is it not in their interests somehow?
If they buy the land themselves, they could achieve increasing housing units on one hand, and also provide housing as a benefit which means going around the 50% tax bracket for their employees.
You do not want your landlord and your employer to be the same. (Unless you're a live in manager of the property, then it's more likely to make sense). For one thing, it makes looking for another job much harder, because you'll presumably have to move as well. For another, because an employee that lives at the employer's housing may never interact with people who aren't employees, and end up even more disconnected from the community at large.
It may make sense for Facebook (or others) to put their money to work increasing housing supply by building denser housing, or by financing such building, but they need to divest as soon as practical. If the issue is employees can't live near work, because housing is too expensive, increasing the supply near work should help with that, even if you don't restrict the new units to employees.
I think that says most of it right there. We've cultivated an environment where paying lip service towards a cause is more important than actually doing anything about it. Real solutions are too easy to attack, so the only safe position is speaking platitudes.
It's mind-boggling, like commuting is some special Hell only they experience. Nobody bats an eye when Manhattan schoolteachers are in the bridge & tunnel crowd, but if you listen to some folks they will assure you that San Francisco's children deserve teachers who live near their schools, and anything else would be a travesty. Think of the children!
One point is most homeless have long standing attachment to the bay area. Both social and economic. There are a lot of very negative effects to moving vulnerable people.
The flipside is is there a reason that the big tech companies need to import tech bros to work in one of the most expensive land in the world. And in particular a place where creating new housing units is frightfully expensive? Seriously why not some place like Waco Texas? In Waco Texas a Tech Bro could live like a king and send his kids to private school on half the salary.
There seems to be another side to that equation
There are a lot of very cheap places all over the US
(You can buy a house in Jackson, MS for 50k right now)
So it’s not like the rent went up and people decided to stay on the streets for 10 years
No, a "real" solution is one that actually works for everyone.
You wouldn't want a homeless shelter on your street either once you've seen the consequences. It is not just a minor inconvenience. It is not morally wrong for people to want to preserve quality of life and physical safety for themselves and their families.
Find a way to house homeless people without causing everyone else to suffer. That would be a real solution and more people would support it.
Good luck ever finding a "real" solution, if "working for everyone" is your requirement. Also, I don't support more homeless shelters, though I can see how my first post could be interpreted as that.
I choose to not pay rent since 2015. I make enough money to at least split an apartment with someone, but I see no benefit in doing so. All my stuff is either sold or in storage. I only need a parking spot where to park my vehicle. My minivan converts into a 8x4x4' bedroom and many people walk past it without giving it a second look.
If a city wants to provide a secure parking lot, that is great and I'd certainly park there, but otherwise I have no need for their help. The challenge with this is that whenever such things are mentioned, the city wants to add arbitrary rules. Opponents then at times label secure parking zones as concentration camps.
We need to get people without a tent off the street. They are definitely in danger. Those in tents can be remarkably comfortable with the right gear, but they need land to set them up and the right gear is expensive. They likely don't have it. Sidewalks are not the right land for that, so they need special attention.
Those of us in vehicles are comfortable enough to not be concerned with. If we are able to maintain a registered insured vehicle, that suggests we do not have mental problems.
Repeating this line is a horrible idea. It gives ammunition to those pushing the idea that Silicon Valley homelessness is the “natural order” rather than the direct result of bad policies by those living here.
There’s more than enough land to solve the issue, it’s just that it would mean people who already own homes would have to make some minor sacrifices that’s they’re not willing to make.
Though I'd believe that the folks in Silicon Valley are more likely to propose and implement this sort of solution than many other parts of the country.
You can give someone who's homeless a home, but that gives them zero tools to keep it. There's an assumption that the person doesn't need supplimental support to have a productive path forward, and thats just wrong.
SF presumed that putting more public toilets on the street would keep people from defecating on the street, that was disproven in several areas, people would just relieve themselves wherever they felt like. I unfortunately would routinely see someone drop a #2 on the street less than 100 feet away from the very well maintained public bathroom.
I'm not really suggesting otherwise. For many, I think you DO need continuous support. Not for everyone, the vast majority of homeless folks you've never seen on the side of the street and simply just poor. But some segment of the population, typically through some form of mental illness, needs continued support.
That's support we as a society can provide, like many other countries do. Or it's support that we can withhold and allow folks to live in deep inhumane poverty.
But if we choose to provide support to these folks, it's likely that it starts with housing.
Yet people still befoul the streets.
The unfortunate "why" is that they DGAF, I wish I was making that up.
Fundamentally, tech companies have been a major driver in increasing income inequality. For all the productivity gains we get from automation, low-income jobs are lost - at least in the short term.
A popular solution is UBI, but I fear that it’s overly-simplistic and could have unintended negative consequences.
Finland figured it out https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle...
Homeless people have been around forever, what's happening now is a failure to send the message out to everyone that living outside IS NOT OK. Can you not afford San Francisco, THEN MOVE. If you are not paying rent it should be even easier, but instead it's the rent paying people that have to spend money they can't really afford just to get away from all the madness.
You wanted to be nice to these people who are obviously taking advantage of the system? Well enjoy your post-apocalyptic shithole.