What gives you anxiety at work? | Hacker News Reader

What gives you anxiety at work?

Hi everyone,

I’m a software developer trying to better understand the causes of anxiety in the workplace. It's research for a side project.

I've been talking to different people (engineers and product managers mostly) and it's been fascinating.

So much of the anxiety people experience is hidden or unknown. Just talking about it openly has been helpful. For example, being asked for status updates on dev tasks throughout the day makes me anxious. I didn't realize this was a trigger until I spent time thinking about why these seemingly benign questions bother me so much.

I put together this three question anonymous survey so I can learn from the community. I'd love to hear from you.

https://airtable.com/shrVmaCcoog9Nd4L7

Thank you, Bryan

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Feeling confused about the thing I'm working on, but not taking the time to really understand it because:

1. I have so many years of people telling me that I'm "overthinking things" or "trying to understand the universe"

2. I'm behind-schedule on the task, as usual.

3. I'm worried about getting fired again.

I'll watch talks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAQ6t3F_2Ug&t=800s and think "Yes! I'd like to live in that world. To have a mental model of the world and be writing code to refine that." I just wish that when I was utterly confused, I could put my foot down and say "No. I'm going go draw some diagrams and ask questions and understand what is going on here. My questions are reasonable and relevant." and draw out a flawed-but-coherent mental model.

But that's not realistic -- not until I have a reputation for actually delivering at pace.

Someday I hope to be productive enough that I can have the political capital to buy myself the time understand what I'm working on as I go. But that is probably as unrealistic a pipe dream as becoming a father.

I have promises to keep.

And miles to go before I sleep.

And miles to go before I sleep...

This sounds stressful. I'm sorry you are not in an environment where you can take your time and ask these important questions.

Keep going. Your questions are reasonable and relevant. Understanding the "why" of what you are doing is crucial. It may seem like a hopeless effort but it will get easier. The better you understand a problem the better you will be able to solve it. It may be slow in the beginning but your confidence will build over time and people will begin to appreciate your thoughtful questions.

You sound like a curious person. I'm reminded of the most curious person I've read, Richard Feynman. He relentlessly asked questions and sought true understanding at a fundamental level. If you haven't read his book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!", you should. It's wonderfully entertaining and will perhaps encourage you to keep asking your questions.

I have a lot of anxiety with my current work (startup).

The anxiety mostly revolves around the feeling of not feeling valuable:

- It kills me whenever I see other people get invited to meetings where I have built a significant portion of the product and I don't.

- It kills me whenever our team is growing and we start interviewing new candidates, I volunteer to help recruit, but I am never considered.

- Recently the manager divided the software up into 'areas of ownership' and I got all the legacy tech debt low profile stuff. Even though I've worked on a significant portion of the software. It kills me.

I can't seem to pin point how to grow in my currently work and it is making me quite sad. I initially came in acting all humble and I think that hurt me. I don't think I'm any less skilled than the other software engs but they sure make me feel like that. It seems like every time we hire a some new person from a FAANG company, they instantly get praised where as a non-FAANG person (myself) just gets pushed down. I keep saying that it's me and I need to keep performing the best I can and ignore all this noise, but I can't. I have not quite figured out how to fix this situation I'm in.

I can relate to this. I've experienced each of these things and the crushing feeling they bring. I've also been on the other side and experienced the joy of a team that values me.

I've been an engineering manager and have helped people find their way through these situations. If you want someone to talk to I'd be happy to have a phone call. You can message me on LinkedIn.

linkedin.com/in/bryanmillstein

> being asked for status updates on dev tasks throughout the day makes me anxious

Why does this make you so anxious? As a manager, I'd like to know.

In my opinion, if your status update is "I'm behind schedule" then that's something that reflects on me, the manager, for poorly budgeting time.

The problem is that individual workers don't feel that way, and it's hard to make them believe you when you say you feel that way.

This is a good question. It's an initial reaction, the fast thinking part of my brain. I suspect it triggers a sense of fear. Here are a few ideas as to why:

- They will think I'm either too slow or not working hard enough. - They will ask me to do it faster which may or may not be feasible. Pushing back on this may be hard. - The question itself adds extra pressure. Someone is waiting for me. - I feel like I'm being watched. - I feel like I'm being micro managed.

The anxiety doesn't last long. Once my rational brain kicks in I move past it quickly. I do wonder though if these small moments of anxiety build up over time.

Interestingly, when I wrote this original post I was thinking about when product managers ask this question rather than a direct manager. I haven't experienced this anxiety when communicating with my manager. The dynamic between engineers and PMs is an interesting one. I don't think the tension between the two groups is talked about enough.

I agree with your opinion. When someone is behind it's almost never because they aren't working hard. However, it's difficult for an individual to make that distinction. This is especially challenging for junior engineers. As I've become more senior this has been less of an issue.

I think schedules are either Parkinson's Law (work expanding to fill time) or things too tightly scheduled and about to fall apart. The only optimum is getting the schedule accurate, which causes anxiety.

The other problem is that programming is not simply "development", it's research too. Research can be a bottomless hole, and it's also really hard to estimate how much research is needed.

For example, maybe I just want to add an icon to my social media site that says this was fact checked. That doesn't seem too hard, but it also is, and it's complex enough that it's patented by LinkedIn.

> The other problem is that programming is not simply "development", it's research too. Research can be a bottomless hole, and it's also really hard to estimate how much research is needed.

This. As a programmer, I've never been able to successfully explain to my managers about this. It always ends up being a blame on me instead for "not properly assessing and estimating the effort".

This will continue to be a challenge because humans are simply not great at estimating. I have had success by explaining to managers that a big part of my job is to help them manage risk. In order for me to do that properly I typically need more information than is initially present so that I can give a high confidence estimate. I might say something like, "I can give you a low confidence ball park estimate right now but if you give me a few hours to research then I can greatly increase the confidence level."

After all, you know the least about a project at the beginning therefore no one should have a high degree of confidence in estimates given then.

Yeah, this was how I was trained to do it. A ballpark estimate on the spot at best is around 30% accuracy. I normally wouldn't give an estimate unless I can break it down the work into less than 4 hour chunks. Proper estimates also contribute to work done as it involves the design, but it's normal to spend a few hours doing estimation.

Trained managers are familiar with the cone of uncertainty, though.

But what I really mean is stuff on the level of powering a toaster with a car battery. It's certainly possible, but nobody has documented on what they did, and there's a very high number of uncertainties as neither were designed to perform this way.

I think you nailed it by pointing out how overlooked the research part of development is. Technical folks often understand this but it can be a challenging concept for people who have not worked as a developer. They can have a distorted view of the research to coding ratio. I imagine they often believe that writing code takes up 90% of a developer's time when in reality time spent researching and thinking is the dominant activity.

It's a common stressor because it's obviously going to be used to assess your job performance, and you need to put effort both into reporting accurately and making you look good. It can get excessive, depending on the quality of management. I've seen bad software managers essentially demand that devs live demo everything they're working on, three times a day, with no notice.

I find good managers are capable of measuring progress without demanding frequent "status updates". It varies from job to job, but I find getting frequent, small PRs (even to dev branches) works well.

Mostly it's because I'm facing a problem I don't know how to solve. And I'm expected to somehow predict when it'll be done.

Another scenario is when I'm asked for updates but in reality the status hasn't changed. And I can't say so because that would imply I've not done anything even though I've been busy searching for a solution.

> Mostly it's because I'm facing a problem I don't know how to solve. And I'm expected to somehow predict when it'll be done.

Does your team allow for knowledge buying tasks? For example, if our team needs to implement a continuous integration solution I might suggest to first create a research task to evaluate the tools available. Once we have that knowledge we can choose the best option for us and create the task to implement it. The way you can sell this is by saying, "I can give you an estimate now but I'll know a lot more after a few hours researching the problem. If you give me that time then I can give you an estimate with a higher level of confidence."

> Another scenario is when I'm asked for updates but in reality the status hasn't changed

I've struggled with this as well. Especially when the person asking for the update is not technical and therefore has a hard time relating to the complexity of the problem. In this situation your instinct may be to tell the person what you think they want to hear. Something like, "I'm figuring out the solution and should be done soon." I know it's uncomfortable but you are better off being honest about your progress. Tell them that the problem is more complex than you initially thought and you are having to do more research to find the right solution. Don't forget that research is part of the job so looking for solutions is doing work. Don't feel bad about that.

With that being said, there is nothing wrong with asking for help from other developers when you are stuck. Asking for help is a sign of strength. It is good to try solve problems on your own before asking for help but do not drive yourself crazy. I have spent far too long banging my head against the wall looking for solutions. These days I am much more comfortable asking for help.

When everyone understands that agile tasks are estimated but then at the end of the sprint they’re treated like a fact to enforce an ostensible due date

This is such a common issue. Estimates are not commitments. When in your process does this estimate get created? Is it during a backlog grooming or a sprint planning session or some other time? Also, who is doing the estimating?

This 100 times.

What To Do if Your Workplace is Anxiety-Inducing Practice Self-Awareness. Before you can improve your situation, it's important to understand what exactly is creating your anxious feelings or worsening the symptoms of your condition. ... 1. Share Your Feelings. ... 2.Release Your Thoughts. ... 3.Know When to Ask for Help. ... 4. Take Time Off. .. 5. Accept Anxiety.

Self awareness is key. I have noticed a substantial improvement in my ability to navigate anxiety since following a regular meditation practice.

Being able to separate my being from my thoughts has been a breakthrough. I cannot stress enough how important it is to shift the thinking from "I am anxious" to "I am currently experiencing anxiety". Anxiety is not your identity, it is a fleeting emotion.

Wondering if you're better off spending your 8+ hrs elsewhere (whether that's a different team, job, occupation, etc).

Having all my work timed by management. And then having that judged with a passing “that shouldn’t have taken that long”. Which I interpret as “better have arse cover for every minute of time I spend”. And “do as little as possible to pass code review” etc. the law about getting what you measure.

My bosses hiring interns and asking me to train them without offering additional compensation.

The benefit of this is that you can add it to your resume. I've hired many engineers and I always like seeing experience mentoring younger developers. So while it is unfortunate that you are not getting additional compensation, this experience will pay you back in the future.

Sure, but in this case, the anxiety is coming from the fact that we are now competing for the same job in this company.

I have no doubt in my mind that when the company decides to go for another cost reduction, I will be the one looking for a new job.

Oh ok, I understand. That sounds like a toxic environment management has created. This advice may sound tone deaf considering our current economic environment but maybe you should start looking for a new job.

Putting energy into a job search may alleviate some of the anxiety around competing with the interns. At the very least you will have made some progress on building a pipeline of new companies so if you do lose your job you will not be starting from scratch.

Thanks for the advice, I am already looking for a new job.

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