Hacker Dosed with LSD While Restoring Historical Synth (2019) | Hacker News Reader

Hacker Dosed with LSD While Restoring Historical Synth (2019)

hackaday.com

166 pointswglb92 comments

Related discussion, including a story of how I met Art Garfunkel on the way to visit Don Buchla:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19992038

That's a great thread! Far better than this one. Everybody go there.

the forensic toxicologist and biochemist sitting next to me, who also has at least as much experience with LSD as any of you lot, sees nothing at all improbable about the events described.

I am struck dumb with awe in the presence of such eminent authority as your friend :P

I have a serious question for someone with your friend's expertise, though. I always thought that LSD "blotters" have a use-by date after which they lose their potency. Word was that they evaporate or some such.

Is that true, or is it just an urban legend? I don't reckon any of the people I've had this kind of conversation with would have kept any LSD blotters around for long enough to really find out.

Obviously, having heard this rumour I was surprised by the article. Friends I read it to also thought the LSD should have expired by then.

With the right conditions, you can store LSD indefinitely (well, until the end of the world or similar). I've certainly managed to keep my own LSD still potent after ~2 years of first getting it, by storing it in a cold, dark and dry place. Some older friends have described to me finding ~5 year old LSD that still worked, but not sure I trust that.

It's normally stored in liquid form, not in blotters. To keep it for long periods it needs to be temperature stable, humidity stable, and extremely low light. All of this is well-documented in the literature.

Let me tell you about the time I got chalked up on blow, dusting out the pots of an old Yamaha DX7.

70s, check. 80s, check. Who has a 90s synth dosing experience?

Presumably involving MDMA in an MC-303

2000's: caught a virus from a Virus.

I bought a RS7000 from eBay and it arrived with the pots completely gummed up with second hand cheeba resin. I did not lick them, perhaps missing out on a mystical jamming buff.

Apparently these days when repairing smartphones it's not uncommon to find them gunked up with class As.

> We’ve learned this lesson ourselves cracking open broken laptops. You might find anything from coffee to soda, to pet urine or worse.

or black beans https://youtu.be/4HhPK8XC75A

I thought it was going to be that baked beans meme but no, they literally brought some random repair guy over to "fix" a computer Full of Beans

Love how the repair guy didn't respond to the guy's confusion over it being Windows 7 and him only having like five windows open at a time.

After years of helping people with 'computery' stuff, I've just stopped explaining things (when I can) if I notice there's no way they'll get it.

LSD ought to be legal.

There are legal pro drugs classified as „research chemicals not for human consumption“, which get metabolized into LSD, i.e. 1CP-LSD (http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/id/eprint/12478/)

Unfortunately there’s even less research on those than on the original.

I suspect that LSD and other psychedelics will be the next area in the drug legalization war, now that weed is basically down to rearguard actions.

It’s already easy enough to acquire relative to the low frequency with which people want to use it. As an entirely non-habit-forming drug, you’re unlikely to find a population of people motivated to get easy access to it.

Weed is relatively low habit forming, significantly less than a lot of other legal drugs, especially nicotine.

I’m not sure if the difference between weed and psychedelics in the habit area is enough to affect the formation of a reform movement.

It’s a controversial statement to describe weed as addictive or habit-forming, but in any case, many people use it daily. The same isn’t true of LSD.

Anecdotally, I saw a lot of friends get cranky when their weed supply was briefly interrupted by covid-19. The public reaction was strong enough that dispensaries got to reopen almost immediately.

Agreed, weed isn’t addictive like alcohol or opiates/stims, but there are plenty of daily users (including myself). LSD is my favorite drug but I could never use it daily, at least recreational doses.

I pretty much always have some lsd around, but the urge to use it frequently is not there. I usually go months without tripping, not days.

God no.

I'm curious about your reasons for objecting.

The problem is that it's too easy to dose someone without their consent or any way to prove who did it.

It's not like that's not already possible. Any person who would want to do that could already easily get their hands on it.

I can't entirely agree, and that's basically the only problem I have with legalization.

I'm not talking about genuinely nefarious reasons, where yes, people would have no problem going to a dealer, but about simple idiots who get a bit too drunk/high/stupid and decide it would be a good prank to dunk a bit of LSD in their friend's coffee before a big meeting or something.

I've been on the receiving end of a person who's absolutely wasted deciding I had some catching up to do and mixing all my drinks double (always mix your own drinks people!) and I'd rather not imagine what the same thing happening with LSD would feel like. I've already seen something similar with weed, where the new guy got the way stronger stuff, and few people saw why that might be kind of fucked up because "it's basically legal now, it's fine!".

I've heard proposals for "adult playgrounds" for psychedelic drugs that solve this and other issues. For a fee, you get a licensed trip sitter in a chill, controlled environment, and the sitter is the person who doses you. It wouldn't directly be available in a retail shop like how weed is.

This also makes it safer if people start having bad trips, to help them calm down and prevent them from endangering themselves. Another spin on this is therapeutic/spiritual services, like LSD-assisted rehab clinics or churches that use it as a sacrament. It could all be done with the same license and certification.

This is probably cliche at this point, but that's been my experience at regional burning man events (never been to the big one, but regionals are a lot more accessible).

While their reputation as hedonistic orgies of sex and drug use is overblown, burns are certainly friendly to psychedelic use. Aside from the fact that you're around lots of stuff to explore, there are also spaces that are set aside from any loud music or overwhelming stimulus.

Also, while I can't speak for any other events, the burns I've been to always have an area called "Sanctuary" that's run by volunteers and provides a quiet, relaxing place for people experiencing anything from anxiety/exhaustion to those having a trip that might be a bit too intense. They have people who are trained/experienced in calming people down, cold water, snacks, etc. so you've got a safe spot to relax if you find yourself in an uncomfortable headspace. I'd imagine they probably stock some emergency benzos as well but I have no idea if they actually do. Just seems like the go-to treatment for trip-related anxiety or panic attacks.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like the way to go. Even if we eventually end up legalizing it completely, that would be a very good and safe first step.

Seeing how fond the Dead were about dosing people without their knowledge (which is horrible and despite being a deadhead, I find abhorrent), I'm sure Bear would be glad he got someone tripping from beyond the grave.

While extremely unethical, there is something to this as a social strategy. We know that exposure to psychedelic drugs alters one of the “Big Five” personality traits, openness to new experience, permanently.

A large group of people doses by LSD without their knowledge would actually emerge from the experience markedly different than they went in. Also, probably more than a little freaked out or pissed off.

Some of the OG psychologists working with LSD wanted to mail samples to world leaders so they would achieve world peace.

Mailing unmarked drugs to world leaders seems like a good way to get a ballistic response.

What do you mean "social strategy"?

I mean if you wanted to affect a change on a society.

I'm glad the hacker is ok. Getting dosed is no joke, especially with no previous experience. It can cause long-lasting psychological effects. Context is key. Fortunately, the hacker recognized what was happening.

The article isn't interesting for the content so much as the comment section. Check that out immediately after reading the article, it's much more entertaining and informative.

Imagine accidentally taking the same acid that Jerry Garcia might have taken 60 years ago. That's wild.

This story is almost too good to be true.

I can confirm from my own experience, that it's pretty easy to accidentally absorb LSD by skin contact.

Thats... unlikely. LSD is not particularly active transdermally (despite it being "well known" that it is), so unless he tasted the crystals... It's also a remarkably unstable molecule for a well-known drug.

And anecdotally, I can say that administering a number of drops from a vial of dissolved LSD did not give me anything remotely approaching a trip.

You can absolutely trip from a transdermal dose. The kind of prying and jimmying required to disassemble a vintage synth unit could easily spread any film or sludge all over a significant part of a person's hands without gloves. Then all it takes is a bit of sweat or touching your face and you'll be unintentionally tripping.

The way you’ve phrased this reminds me of a guy I once worked with— who was fooling around with his girlfriend while they both tripped on acid— and they started pouring liquid Tide laundry detergent all over each other, ostensibly believing it was an appropriate choice of sensual massage oil.

The hardest part for me to believe isn't the transdermal application. I've definitely known of people who who handled LSD and learned to wear gloves the hard way. What is difficult to understand is how a molecule that unstable was able to survive for... over half a century?

What makes you think it's unstable? UV light, heat, chlorine, (and perhaps some other things) degrade the molecule. In the absence of those it should be stable for a long time, in salt form (as it's usually made).

I've had tabs of acid sitting in a fridge which is naturally light and heat controlled, in a sealed container (within the fridge) be absolutely benign when consumed after being left for over a few months. The only way I've managed to keep LSD protected/improve shelf life is to keep it in it's liquid form and store it in a dropper.

I don't doubt that LSD could survive for some period of time on a natural surface but to provide a big "trip" after it was on a surface like a Synth seems a stretch.

I'd love to find out the half life of LSD in an open atmosphere like a Synth, I imagine it wouldn't be very long at all.

and I've had tabs of acid wrapped in tinfoil inside a small ziploc inside a filing cabinet with questionable temperature stability work just fine after several years. Some of that acid, if I remember right, was taken into a rave, lived in my pocket for a few hours inside... foil or a ziploc, I forget, and then came home to rest in that filing cabinet.

Fair enough! Maybe the LSD I'm referring to was always shit/weak. :)

>Thats... unlikely. LSD is not particularly active transdermally

It can be and of course you can always touch your mouth, eyes, etc if you have it and you don't know it.

Not to mention - there are several varieties of LSD (liquid, crystal form, etc), and it can be soaked, have stabilisers added, etc.

>And anecdotally, I can say that administering a number of drops from a vial of dissolved LSD did not give me anything remotely approaching a trip.

Could it be the dealer duped you?

A "a number of drops from a vial of dissolved LSD" will very much give you a trip (100% so if administering means "orally").

No, the dealer didn't dupe me, and we had many successful trips when taking it normally (and laying it on blotters). It was not active transdermally. Dave Nicholl's own technicians attempted to make LSD active transdermally using DSMO and failed.

Nick Sand was the individual who attempted transdermal absorption using DMSO:

>Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.

https://erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates...

> so unless he tasted the crystals...

It doesn't seem too far-fetched that he would do a licked finger dip taste test to help identify what he had found, nor does it seem too far-fetched that he wouldn't want to admit his curiosity.

I would have assumed it were a bit of long lost cocaine, nobody expects to have much of a reaction from a little taste test. But LSD is pretty unique in that regard.

I have no idea how long LSD would last on a surface, but I do know transdermal absorption is a thing. A friend of mine in college had it happen, but but he was handling sheets with several hundred doses on them. It's also possible some transferred to his fingers and made its way to his mouth.

If there were an accidental dosing, I suspect the original dosage would have been quite high.

Anecdotally, I can say that taking a thin sheet smaller than the end of a pencil eraser I tripped for a solid 4-5 hours. LSD dosage and purity varies greatly, but where it used to be cheap and strong from what I understand it's quite difficult to find "good" LSD now.

> anecdotally, I can say that administering a number of drops from a vial of dissolved LSD did not give me anything remotely approaching a trip.

This indicates to me that it was not LSD. I too have administered drops in a casual fasion (first time) on a 'number of drops' (one should suffice) scale. And it wasnt about does this work it was about will this ever end.

This summer i simply touched pices of paper which MONTHS earlier had a drop on it. This was stored in foil in a safe. I then tasted my finger, and spent hours feeling possibly good up down feverish. It is true if you dont do the whole deal you just limbo on the terroble initial 'i feel weird maybe good maybe bad probabaly goood maybe bad'

But image just puddles of then dried lsd residue .. and this guy hour + after working on those surfaces certainly ate lunch etc. great times.

I wasn't clear with that sentence, I apologise: I applied those drops transdermally. Nothing happened. But taken sublingually/orally, different story!

Well they tested it right? So the LSD was on it somehow. Maybe it wasn’t from the 60s, but it makes for an amusing story regardless.

Would you believe https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/05/21/1960s-rock-musi... ?

Apparently it was stored in a cool and dry corner of a classroom. I don't see why LSD couldn't last this long without degrading given the ideal conditions. Also the LSD was found on the inside of the machine, so there wouldn't be any light exposure either.

Unlikely but not impossible. He could have rubbed his eyes or lips after getting some on his hands.

> administering a number of drops from a vial of dissolved LSD did not give me anything remotely approaching a trip

What do you mean by "administering"? And what did you dissolve it in? Chlorine will destroy LSD so if you used tap water that might be the reason. Alcohol or distilled water is fine as a storage medium.

He might have even dosed by accidentally getting it on his fingers then rubbing his eyes or (not trying to be gross) pickin' that nose, yo. Get it into some mucus membranes and off you go. The tongue is the most common way to absorb the stuff, though. From what I was told, you didn't eat the tiny paper that was soaked in it - the LSD was absorbed through your tongue.

It sounded like he encountered a massive amount of pure crystals. If he touched it then touched his nose or ate something with his hand, then he could have gotten a huge dose.

> so unless he tasted the crystals

We have plenty of evidence that people's hand hygiene is often pretty poor, so licking his contaminated fingers isn't surprising to me.

I've ...heard through the grapevine that if you handle large quantities of the stuff with your bare hands you will trip for a long time

Isn't this is how LSD was discovered?

the concentration in your vial was probably orders of magnitude less than it could have been. We know a very concentrated amount of LSD can cause tripping when applied transdermally, as its effects on humans were first discovered that way.

LSD is one of, if not the, most potent drugs known to humans. Not many other drugs have threshold doses in the micrograms.

I also feel like it's even less believable given it was already an urban legend.

Maybe the contact cleaner helped dissolve and transport the LSD into his skin?

A technician in Dave Nichol's lab tried this with DMSO, a well-known and much more potent solvent for attempting this:

> And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.

Haha, it's not even that DMSO is just a solvent, that garlicky stuff is a magic potion for turning things into transdermals.

Testosterone ester crystals? Not bioavailable at all, but put it in some DMSO and lather on and you're in business. It works for, astoundingly, most anything.

And if there's any man you're to trust on the pharmacokinetics of psychedelics, it would be Nichols, our co-founding father of all modern phenethylamine, tryptamine and lysergamide knowledge.

Complete hoopla I say.

And yet amusingly my initial comment is downvoted and most of the comments here are arguing with me regarding it. LSD is not active transdermally!

Yea I'm putting my money on him having tasted the crystals

Having worked with crystal I have to agree. And knowing how delicate LSD is to heat, light, air, and moisture I significantly doubt it lasted decades.

Similarly, the "thumbprint" urban legends are mostly that...legends.

"Urine fortified with LSD and stored in amber glass or nontransparent polyethylene containers showed no change in concentration under any light conditions. Stability of LSD in transparent containers under light was dependent on the distance between the light source and the samples, the wavelength of light, exposure time, and the intensity of light. After prolonged exposure to heat in alkaline pH conditions, 10 to 15% of the parent LSD epimerized to iso-LSD. Under acidic conditions, less than 5% of the LSD was converted to iso-LSD. We also demonstrated that trace amounts of metal ions in buffer or urine could catalyze the decomposition of LSD and that this process can be avoided by the addition of EDTA. This study demonstrates the importance of proper storage conditions of LSD in urine in order to insure proper analytical testing results over time."

https://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8647

As to the transdermal activity IIRC Hofmann himself said that it isn't really active and his own trip was probably caused by him getting some on his hands and then rubbing it into a mucous membrane (eyes, nose, mouth).

Interesting! Thank you for the source.

he was cleaning it off using solvents and no gloves. that’s exactly how you get things through your skin.

you are _very_ ignorant. liquid lsd will work just fine being dropped in your hand. research what the family members had to go through in order to handle crystal and lay sheets. they had to go through what they did because of the extremely high chance you'd be tripping just from working with it.

Someone sharing an opinion on this hardly makes them "_very_ ignorant." Relax

See comment above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535697

“Turn on, tune in, drop out.”

“Buy the ticket, take the ride.”

> Hacker Dosed with Historical LSD While Restoring Historical Synth

Sounds like the acid had been in there since the get-go.

I would just like to say how pleased I am that Hacker News is the kind of place where you can have a conversation about drugs and not a single person refers to themselves as SWIM.

Attitudes have changed, and the HN posting crowd is much more insulated from the vagaries of law enforcement. The veneer of plausible deniability just isn't needed here as much I think.

I'm not sure I want to google what SWIM stands for.

SWIM is "Someone Who Isn't Me". People use it instead of "I" as in "I committed the crime" becomes "SWIM committed the crime."

Presumably people really believe that this is some sort of legitimate infosec behavior. I like that it makes infosec important, but it might trick people into thinking infosec is as easy as just using an acronym.

A lot of people did it for fun.

"not me personally but a guy i know"

Woah so cool he was on drugs while he did it??? That amplifies everything, so meaningful.

LSD is volatile; there's a reason you store it away from moisture and light. I find this narrative unlikely. Even the moisture in the air will reduce the potency very rapidly.

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