The relationship between mindset and age (2017) | Hacker News Reader

The relationship between mindset and age (2017)

aging.nautil.us

195 pointsricardomcgowan81 comments

Old person here (+7 decades). Not much you can do about physical deterioration. The only thing I've found you can easily carry into old age is (assuming no senility or debilitating disease) coordination. One can be weak and frail yet still somewhat graceful. As for the mind, it depends on when it freezes in time. If you find yourself comparing everything current to the "good old days", then you are probably lost. But as long as you have an appetite for the new and unfamiliar (maybe something like ycombinator) then there is possibly still hope...

Remember when computers didn't hook to the internet for everything?

I was in college when unix was invented...

Given your grander temporal experience, do you have any predictions/foresight into how the world is changing? It feels like we are being wound up to be shot out of a cannon if I'm being honest.

Given my experience, it will be more of the same only different. Adaptability is a virtue...

Do you have advice on how to keep your intellect intact? Many of my older relatives can barely think through things at 0.1x the speed they had even a decade back, if they even bother to think through anything. However, very old people in academia seemed to remain very sharp well into their seventies (some study suggested that they can be as sharp as a regular 25 yo). I guess it's good to keep reading and constantly use your brain, but any more solid actionable habits might be useful!

Anything I can offer will be anecdotal. I have been placed somewhere on the autistic spectrum so perhaps that is a factor. People who constantly think and wrestle with things are driven to do so. Those who don't, aren't. I know of no way to manipulate or adjust this difference. I would say the thing to avoid at every turn is calcification, if you can...

Keep your cardiovascular system healthy. In many older people the loss of intellect is simply caused by insufficient glucose and oxygen reaching the brain. Everything is connected; intellect isn't some separate quality that can be maintained on its own.

Of course some people start from a higher baseline and so a slight loss of intellect is less noticeable.

There might be a bit of circular reasoning about the old academics. People who lose their cognition don’t stay academics. It’d be interesting to see a cohort analysis starting at 40.

Exactly, survivorship bias.

Well I'm not in that age group, but my dad reads every day and does some Python on the side. I don't think he's ever coded before, but he's interested in new things every day.

you should try to separate mental speed from intellectual capacity. Many older folk are perfectly capable of understanding things, but their minds don't necessarily operate at the same clock speed they did when they were in their 20s.

There have been studies done on healthy and long lived Okinawans from Japan and people from certain mountainous villages in Italy (see youtube for videos). The current consensus seems to be;

* A healthy and controlled diet.

* Regular activity of various kinds.

* A inclusive and healthy social life.

* A positive frame of mind with less worries.

The above may seem simplistic, but if you think about it that is all it takes.

I only have anecdotes but most of my older relatives have reached 90+ years old and none lost their cognition. They all stayed pretty active (Ukrainian farmers and housewives) and independent. All were also quite social, inquisitive despite not being educated, ate pretty traditional diets, etc... There's definite links between cognition and physical exercise so I'm thinking that probably plays a pretty big role.

There's no need to be weak and frail. You can actually do a lot about physical deterioration ... up to a point. In one of the triathlons I raced last year the retired Marine who won the 70 - 79 age group was only a few minutes slower than me.

The key to staving off muscle atrophy and loss of bone mineral density is doing high-impact training and weightlifting at least a couple times per week, while maintaining proper form to avoid injury. The digestive system also becomes less efficient at absorbing some nutrients so you have to increase protein intake in order to have the necessary building blocks for repairing damaged muscle tissue.

Not sure why you've been downvoted. Weightlifting (specifically heavy+low reps) has major effect to promote bone density, that's why astronauts do it now in space. It also prevents muscle atrophy, that much should be obvious. Finally, more muscle mass will keep your metabolism up and prevent fat gain.

I know you meant resistance training in general wrt astronauts in space but I just got the funniest image in my head of Chris Hadfield doing a zero G overhead press with a loaded bar and floating all over the place hahaha

So far I've seen no rules stating that world records should be taking place on earth gravity. Maybe this is my chance to take some weightlifting records.

Sadly, in zero G there is no weight so every record would be 0. Equally sadly, there are no "masslifting" records to actually beat.

What does "lift" even mean where there is no objective "down"?

In my mind, I cannot reconcile to scientific facts: (1) to keep muscle mass and to not become frail you need to take more protein; (2) protein restricted diet slows down aging.

> (2) protein restricted diet slows down aging.

Protein/calorie restricted diet is observed to slow down aging in rats in laboratory conditions, i.e. which make no other changes to their presumably sedentary lifestyles.

Protein restriction in humans is only recommended if you have some chronic kidney disease. If I remember right, most people don't consume enough protein to need to restrict in this case either.

There is no proof that protein restriction actually extends lifespan in humans (or any primate). That's not a scientific fact. And hypothetically even if it did work to slightly extend lifespan, I see little point in just being alive if I'm too weak and frail to do the activities I enjoy.

Likewise, I came in 3rd in a (relatively low key) half marathon 6 or 7 years ago and the guy right behind me the whole way was 72. I was maxed out (I think my finish time was 1:36), and when I finished I was absolutely bushed. This old guy congratulated me, ate a cookie, hung out a bit, then ran home like the whole thing was a warm up.

Do you do anything that maintains your coordination?

Concentration and practice. If you are moving, concentrate on the moving. When you were younger, movement was natural and in the background. Older, you need to focus...

Do you take any supplements or medicine to maintain cognitive abilities?

Sort of. It is not uncommon with age to lose the ability to efficiently breakdown and/or absorb B12. A B12 deficiency can mimic the physical and mental symptoms of the more serious neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's. Definitely not fun. I take a supplement that provides roughly 100k of the RDA every day...

psilocybin mushrooms, for one, help hone mind-body coordination.

what do you do to keep yourself physically active?

anecdotally from what you’ve observed, would you recommend strength training as a way to build/keep muscle more functional as you age?

Personally, I walk and pace. I spent many years as a bartender so that activity feels natural to me and actually is relaxing. As for strength, if I can open a jar, I feel pumped enough...

This already opened jar of gherkins became impossible to open. My daughter came up with the idea of putting boiling water on the lid and then it was easy to open. I was very impressed.

Just knock the jar (lid down) against a table. Works every time.

punching into the jar's bottom with a flat hand (90 degrees from the arm, palm facing outward) has always worked for me.

Wrap a thick elastic band around the cap. The greater friction from the rubber makes it much easier.

> The only thing I've found you can easily carry into old age is (assuming no senility or debilitating disease) coordination. One can be weak and frail yet still somewhat graceful.

This is a beautiful and powerful example that eloquently supports your point ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0eFx5a-FMg

I like this way of counting age (+3 decades here)

I find that I am the same as I was 10-15 years ago. But society is boxing me in with their expectations and with their carrots and sticks makes me act differently.

I would run down the street as a kid. If I did that today, it would look weird.

I would be sort of silly and upbeat about a lot of things. But as you get older, people expect you to talk slower and more seriously.

And so on. A lot of it has to do with societal pressure and putting you in boxes by sex and age.

Take this experiment... go somewhere no one knows your age and hang out with much younger people for like a week. See how your health is afterwards.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/age-is-ju...

https://www.businessinsider.com/ellen-langers-reversing-agin...

> I would run down the street as a kid. If I did that today, it would look weird.

I still do this during early morning runs (when I have them). It definitely feels weird, but also a lot of fun. Most of the weird feeling indeed comes from "but what if they see me?"

I wish it would be normal and accepted for adults to play too. You can still be a responsible and grown-up person.

“Man child” is the label you’ll hear thrown around for that.

On the bright side, because it's not normal, it makes it easier to spot people who might be worth hanging out with.

(like Dolphus Raymond with his paper bag, engaging with kids may provide useful cover for playful adults)

"When Kelvin looked through the eyepiece he saw what was undoubtedly the phenomenon that Maxwell had described, but in addition there was the image of a little man dancing about ... Maxwell had achieved this by the addition of a zoetrope ... Kelvin could not help asking: 'What is the little man there for?' ... 'Just for fun, Thomson.'"

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/fourier-analysis/ode-to...

This is a nice part about having kids. You get to play with them and be reminded about how fun it is (tag and climbing the jungle gym is still fun and so are legos!).

Pursue art if anything. It will reset your psychological clock back a few decades and you will be able to do an activity with younger people without coming across as weird.

If anything, a well rounded worldview brought upon by age is conducive to making art that has a grander, more truthful (not necessarily more factual) statement.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to make grander more truthful statements with art.

Making things for the sake of making things will do. It doesn't even matter if you don't get better at it over time.

Make things (art, food, woodworking, gardens, anything) for the pure joy of creation and playfulness. That seems like a more surefire way to stay young than trying to make statements.

I found once I dropped certain stoic, masculine behaviours I felt expected from society I became more productive and a better person. There are a lot of people who show subtle hostility to me now (both men and women) but it's honestly not worth worrying what other people think. I'm way too relieved most days.

What are the behaviors?

Off the top of my head, the things I do more now are: - putting more effort into my appearance in nontraditional ways (eg: makeup, androgynous clothing, haircuts, etc.) - mentioning that I'm frustrated by something - acting naturally when people might be goading me into confrontational behaviour

Lot of folks get upset when men mention getting upset at something. Ex. "That hurt my feelings." "I don't like that you said that." "That made me happy." "Wow I feel great." Etc.

Men are commonly expected to be stoic and not express such things and just "go about their day". If they don't, it's viewed as dramatic and over-expressive. It's interpreted as immaturity, imo.

"...stoic, masculine behaviors I felt expected from society..."

I don't know what society you live in, but being stoic and masculine seems quite rare these days and is often frowned upon...

GP probably meant the pressure not to show weakness or emotion, which I'd say is still more commonly internalized by men.

Jealous! I don't find that the case in Western Canada, personally.

I've found that it was in my youth that I most cared what other people thought.

The older I get, the less I care about it.

> psychologist Ellen Langer and her students carefully refurbished an old monastery in Peterborough, New Hampshire, to resemble a place that would have existed two decades earlier. They invited a group of elderly men in their late 70s and early 80s to spend a week with them and live as they did in 1959,

Has this study been replicated? Every time I see a psychology study that is used as the basis of some popular article by some journalist, I get suspicious.

Agreed. I’m also dubious about the control group who were merely “reminiscing”. Seems ripe for researcher-induced bias.

Of course not. Like all things too good to be true, it most probably is. Criticism section on the researcher's Wikipedia page is worth a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Langer#Criticism

Yikes:

> ...Langer claimed that when elderly men were temporarily placed in a setting that recreated their past, their health improved, and they even looked younger. However, this study was never published in a peer-reviewed journal. The only publication of this finding is in a chapter of a book edited by Langer.

> ... Langer described the week-long paid adult counterclockwise retreats she was creating in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico, aimed towards replicating the effects found in her New Hampshire study. ... "Langer makes no apologies for the paid retreats, nor for what will be their steep price." Langer was defiant when pressed on the ethics of her study: "To my question of whether such a nakedly commercial venture will undermine her academic credibility, Langer rolled her eyes a bit. 'Look, I’m not 40 years old. I’ve paid my dues, and there’s nothing wrong with making this more widely available to people, since I deeply believe it.'"

I'm bummed Nautilus is publishing this. They ought to know better.

And may i say that you ought to know better than to point out one data point in a good article to besmirch the entire informative article.

The article deals with complex and interesting topics and is well worth a couple of reads.

Seriously. People oft forget there are two parts to critical thinking: the part where you figure out all the ways something could possibly be untrue, then the part where you figure out all the ways in which it could be true.

This. even the most flawed highschool level proof of gravity is still probaly correct.

If you're not an expert in the field and manage to find a more or less obvious mistake in the research of the article, how many more subtle errors an expert would find?

Actually that is not the case here. The article is an overview bringing together ideas/opinions from various different researchers only one of whom seems to have employed questionable practices.

Another thing with these kind of studies is that any kind of change is beneficial in the short term, sometimes even changes that are significantly detrimental in the long run. Also, sometimes studies may exclude dropouts from the final results skewing results significantly.

I wanted to play drums since I was 10, but being the one who procrastinates dreams for decades before doing something, I had to wait to reach above 50 to finally start taking lessons. Playing already keyboards and bass of course was beneficial, also I already knew how to do a few things on the drums, but nothing serious. All I can say is it helped a lot, both the body and the mind. I had to stop both practicing and taking lessons during the early pandemic lockdown, and in a few weeks I clearly felt the negative effects.

https://www.oldest.org/sports/marathon-runners/

People had run/are running marathon in 70-90s age group. Hack, the oldest runner was 102 year old.

May be we can do lot better, if we force ourselves to stay active.

Mark Twain said it better - "Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.".

>> Still, the message seems to be that our chronological age really is just a number. “If people think that because they are getting older they cannot do things, or cut their social ties, or incorporate this negative view which limits their life, that can be really detrimental,” says Terracciano. “Fighting those negative attitudes, challenging yourself, keeping an open mind, being engaged socially, can absolutely have a positive impact.”

And this.

See discussion from 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14532581

I decided a year or two ago that I have 2 ages, my chronological age and my biological age. I feel and tell people the latter, which is about 5 years younger than my chronological age. It really does make a difference and I feel younger. I refuse to accept the stereotypes of my age group. When a birthday comes round I decide whether to increase my biological age. I see this as no different to people who choose their gender based on how they feel.

It’s still lying.

Actually biological clock can be measured and indeed can differ by quite a lot of years.

"Measured" with pretty large error bars. As far as I know we don't have all that many reliable markers that predict remaining lifespan.

Nowadays, we have a few. I am watching /r/longevity for news of relevant research, if you're interested.

> remaining lifespan

Not remaining, but lived through

Is it important?

Honestly, yes, to a point. If I hired someone and found out they lied about their age, I couldn't trust them again. If I were dating someone, I'd leave. I'd never trust the person again because the age is such a silly thing to lie about and I'd assume that their speech is riddled with other untruths.

I think you're lying!8-)) If she was attractive enough you'd find an excuse, grin and bear it!

Unfortunately, probably not. Most women, unfortunately, aren't attracted to other women so I'd probably not get the chance. Sometimes I'm happy to be bi so I'm not as limited as folks limited to a single sex, though I could do without the discrimination.

> If I hired someone and found out they lied about their age, I couldn't trust them again.

Why is their age relevant? You might as well ask about their favourite sexual position. Would you expect them to answer that question honestly?

If not, why is does one dishonest answer warrant suspicion but the other does not? Probably because the age question feels "innocuous", but clearly it's not as it not only appears to measurably affects physiology, it definitely affects career prospects in some fields.

This is especially well put, thank you.

The other day I was thinking about whether acceptance of transgender people should or would extend to trans-race people. I considered the concept of "trans-age" as well. If some things we previously considered to be biologically defined and immutable are now seen as more fluid, seems like the future is to extend that to all parts of our identities. Especially with things like VR, genetic engineering, more advanced surgical and chemical procedures...

Exactly. Ageism is as negative as any other stereotype. I completely believe that if you hit a certain age and start to believe you're old your body and mind will respond to create that experience, and vice versa.

Awesome read!!

Reply on news.ycombinator.com