Ask HN: Canada for tech jobs?
Is now a good time to move to Canada for tech-related jobs, data science/analytics in particular? What parts of Canada should one consider?
2 is possible, 4 seems like a big stretch. Are you really comparing apples to apples? Or are you working for Google and comparing against someone working for a random consultancy firm in Victoria? In Montréal, top software developers salaries are around 200K CAD, a bit more if you go at Google, and Montreal pays less than other cities.
Particularly on the island, in Victoria, it's quite possible for an entry level position to earn only around 33,000 to 45,000 CDN.
If there aren't good jobs there then it's a different story.
Edit: apparently my perspective is dated; see the replies.
https://www.vicnews.com/business/booming-tech-sector-in-grea...
It's not particularly useful to make claims that one can earn enormous amounts by changing region without also acknowledging that such an opportunity is only available to a small minority.
Sure, you and your social sphere have done well; but what about the population in aggregate?
Not everyone will or can work at a FAANG, or is competent enough to rise to that compensation level within those companies.
You're comparing SF to the whole Canada. If you zoom in to just Vancouver and Toronto, less than 75k is definitely smaller local companies. Similar to some no-name companies in SF in general won't net you close 200k TC.
SAP new grads TC can hit $100k and this company is considered to pay the least among Salesforce (and Tableau), Microsoft, Amazon, Shopify, Splunk, etc around Vancouver.
Senior Devs (outside the list above) avg base pay in Vancouver is around 130-140k at entry (newly minted Sr. Dev) before bonuses (10-20%), RRSP matching, and stock if the company is public.
Toronto have more tech companies that pay similar avg I believe.
Definitely it's not $285k for intermediate dev (SDE2) for SF Bay but Vancouver and Toronto have established themselves as tech hotspot in Canada leaving the rest.
On the other hand, I agree with you on the point of your saving rate provided that you are young without family. With Family, I believe you have to pay extra health-insurance out of your own pocket. You might have to pay extra for education as well (or pay extra to live in better neighborhood).
I make really good money for my 3 years of experience (compared to others in my city with my level of experience) but it's just such a hilariously large gap at this point that it'd be dumb for me not to at least try and get a job.
And I've said elsewhere in thread, I'd happily move my family down (I'm a US citizen) if I thought it was possible to buy health insurance that would guarantee coverage for all issues. I've heard too many stories of insurance companies refusing to pay for emergency treatments because the hospital happened to be out of network.
Are your top earning friends L4 or equivalent? If not the comparison is worthless.
Those looks very much like junior level salaries. 90-100K$ CAD for a junior position at one of the FANG in Canada is as low as you can go.
And I agree that this is not common at all but OP was talking about "top earning" friends.
However, even taking your median figure of 100k, I doubt the median salary in the bay for a senior software engineer is 300K USD (4 times more).
You might want to get more up to date info on that.
So what you need to think about is this: if you would be putting away, say, $50k less a year in Vancouver, it's essentially like you're paying $50k more to live there. Is it worth it to you?
Compared to San Fran, it has a more hospitable and interesting climate, the culture is perhaps less vivacious but definitely safer and more genteel, the outdoors and recreation opportunities nearby blow away anything in California, and the fact that the local institutions and governments are still relatively well-run has a positive impact on the long term stability of the place.
The question is: are you looking for somewhere to _live_, to settle, to raise a family, to put down roots? Are you looking for somewhere to be _from_? Or are you a member of the globetrotting class, working wherever you feel like, being _from_ nowhere?
If the latter, then you may as well follow the money for as long as you can. If the former, then it may well be worth some numeric financial sacrifices in order to actually have a better life. There's probably plenty of equivalents in "flyover" states and the like, where you can live for cheap and be safe and stable relative to the major cities.
That is, if your only consideration is financial; which is an equally irrational way to live your life. You have to consider the social cost of uprooting yourself and moving around - there is huge value in building not just a "network" but an actual group of friends, other families, etc. to form community. This of course is something often missed by the sort of small-souled bugmen that are attracted to working at high-value Silicon Valley jobs, "changing the world" by "disrupting" the way people deliver pizza or call a cab. (Imagine pouring out your best years slaving away at something so meaningless!)
If you spend the early years of your career living in an $2000/mo room in some bunkhouse, not developing real connections with anyone, and then drop out of the sky in another city as you approach 30, don't be surprised if you've missed out on many of the other things that actually make life worth living, and don't be surprised if you've paid other opportunity costs. Maybe you miss out on finding the love of your life, or don't find them until you're too old to start a family. Maybe you find yourself permanently rootless, unable to form a cohesive friend group, perhaps even skeptical that they actually exist.
Or just notice all the human shit on the street in SF and realize that you could actually live somewhere you honestly liked to be. It's that simple.
I think about moving us to the Bay Area, but I'm now so terrified of what happens if one of us gets sick and insurance decides not to cover it for whatever reason.
Also, at least outside of Toronto, I feel like I can pick any decent-sized city in Canada and not be in danger of putting my kids in an underfunded school district. Violent crime rates here are lower, property crime rates are lower.
But yeah, I'm giving up probably $200k/year for it. We're doing okay, though.
The biggest challenge in tech in Canada is salaries. Youre paid less and then youre paid in CAD which is around 70% of USD. Then you factor in high house prices in both Toronto and Vancouver and things arent so great.
If youre willing to live outside these areas then there are lots of opportunities. Canada as a country in general is great, but it has its own set of issues. Namely a lame resource extraction based economy and a hyper willingness to sell all its assets - information economy and otherwise - at discount prices to boost jobs.
There is a growing tech community in Vancouver. There are more traditional tech companies like Microsoft, Amazon and Apple. There’s also film and games companies like Industrial Light and Magic, Sony Pictures Imageworks and more... It’s definitely no Bay Area in terms of number of gigs or pay, and the cost of living is almost as high, but again, I felt much happier there. It’s obviously subjective and unquantifiable, but something to research and consider too.
They are far less in Canada, a $200K CAD ($150K USD) tech job is rare, actually, $150K CAD ($112K USD) are also uncommon.
Best job opportunities are in high COL locations (Vancouver, Toronto), followed by Montreal. But unlike the USA the compensation (for MOST employees) in those markets is only moderately higher than lower COL locations. (Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg...etc).
Base salary is much higher in the US. To give you an idea: at year 8 of my career my salary is technically $52,000 Canadian per year. I've had people in the Seattle telling me that number should be nearer to $100,000 USD. And my $51,000 Canadian translates to $34,000 USD when the conversation rate is considered. The difference grows when you consider that the US typically has a lower tax rate then Canada and that many US employers are usually willing to provides benefits that would cover services that normally the government would be paying for.
That said, I'm only speaking as someone that works in QA and the city I live in does not have as strong a tech industry as those in British Columbia, Ontario, or Quebec.
Lots of Canadians here will suggest to move to the United States for higher pay and better opportunitites.
But if you are from a developing country, then moving to the USA is very convulted and not an easy option for you like it is for Canadians.
So, If you that is your situation, then Canada is an exciting option and you might be able to work for a lot of US companies that have Canadian options.
The US is a nightmare regarding immigration. The Canadian system is straight forward for qualified people.
Been working here for a decade and the tech economy is the best it's ever been.
Big cos like Amazon, Microsoft have set up shop in Vancouver and are here to stay. They provide a nice fallback option to any sort of smaller startups that don't pan out.
The games industry has bounced back in a big way too. The multi thousand capacity EA Games studio in Burnaby is full and they've had to get off site offices.
Add on the standard benefits of Canada:
* free universal healthcare means being an entrepeneur is easy.
* reasonable gun regulations (no concealed carry nonsense)
* generally more progressive governments than USA.
Pay on average is lower, but comes with a higher degree of social security and stability. Of course, Canada is not without its own racist past or present, but it's not quite as "on display" as the US. Our previous prime minister tried to have a "barbaric cultural practices" hotline which was essentially a dogwhistle to more Islamophobic elements of the Conservative party base.
That being said, I'm thankful that our police aren't tear gassing protesters in Ottawa so that Trudeau can have a photoshoot.
The tech industry in general isn't as large as the US, but does carry a lot of talent. Places to note are Kitchener-Waterloo, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal and...maybe Calgary? I'm not so sure about the data science field myself, but I do know that most large tech firms around here do carry an analytics team.
Edit to add: like others have noted, COL is high in Toronto and Vancouver. That being said, I absolutely loved living in Vancouver and would move back there from Waterloo in a heartbeat. If you're able to land a job and afford living there (or more likely in another Lower Mainland city), I would recommend it.
I believe it's still open for work, it is in the other direction.
I am from India - getting a US visa/green card is too much trouble. I started at a tech company in Canada at 70K Cad annually in 2008. The salary went up to 120k by 2016.
In these 8 years - I went from a work permit to Canadian citizen. Also started a family with kids.
I moved to Bay Area in 2016 for a non-Faang company at 200K USD annual total compensation. Moved to Faang in 2018 and comp is 400k USD.
Will move back to Canada by 2020/21 and am counting on my company allowing remote due to covid. Yes it will be a salary cut but that’s fine. I want to raise my kids in Canada.
Bay Area experience is worth it - financially and technical too
Long term it depends on you
The city has a low cost of living, high provincial taxes, but a top notch cultural scene, bar scene, festival scene, etc.
If not Montréal, Toronto or Vancouver have their callings but most tech folks I studied with headed off to the states for higher wages - but I imagine many of them will return with stacked savings accounts at some point. As someone else pointed out, Waterloo is a special case and might be worth looking at, too.
In my experience, and purely anecdotally, I've really witnessed a 2 speeds system where some people are very highly paid (120k+, keep in mind you can buy a condo in the middle of downtown for 300k) and some are getting very (40-50k) low salaries for the same amount of experience, same alma matter and probably even the same skill . How you sell yourself is always a huge factor in how much you get paid, sure, but the difference is particularly striking in Montreal imo.
As for seniority, most of the teams I've seen are very young with very dynamic leads. The industry is booming right now ( or was booming before march, I'm not sure now).
To add on to this, from someone who is actually living in Montreal.. Quebec has the highest tax rates in Canada.
To give you an idea, the majority of software engineers here make between: 70k-95k.
This means you should be ready live with around 4-6k/mo after taxes.
The rent is still cheap, but not as cheap as you think, a descent apartment will cost you ~1,200$/mo.
The healthcare is (almost) free, you still have to pay the government ~200-400$ year if you're not on a private plan. But it's nowhere near the US.
Also French really is a requirement, especially when dealing with the government.
And although it's possible to get used to, there are tiny frictions everywhere -- e.g. signage is generally not bilingual (you learn how to guess from context and from the Latin roots of words). This is not a big deal in real life because there's usually small print in English available separately as printed materials. That said, most cities in Europe, South America and Asia (the ones I’ve visited) have far more bilingual public signage than Montreal.
Not everyone is bilingual (only downtown and certain suburbs like NDG/West Island) so exchanging little pleasantries becomes more difficult, and there's always a guessing game going on as to whether someone looks like Anglophone or Francophone, even just east of St Urbain in downtown MTL. STCUM announcements are French-only so if there's an emergency on the tracks or a train schedule change, you have to ask around to see if someone can translate.
The tech scene was very underdeveloped when I was there. Big events/conferences/exhibitions were always happening elsewhere, e.g. Toronto, even Vancouver, but no one was coming to Montreal -- the biggest conference I remember was the grassroots Perl's YAPC. (although PyCon would eventually come to be hosted there in 2014-2015). Things are different now with the existence of many more startups, but the ecosystem is still much smaller than in many cities in English Canada.
You also have to understand that English-language culture in Montreal is an afterthought due the English-language market being smaller -- most big international productions (say musicals/concerts/talks... in fact, almost anything) will often skip over Montreal but will have a show in Toronto, and even smaller cities like Ottawa. I felt I was constantly missing out on stuff that was happening in the U.S. and ROC (rest of Canada).
I could've tried to learn more French, and though it would have eased things significantly, I suspect I would still have not been able to sufficiently integrate into society -- there truly are two solitudes (as Hugh Maclennan once put it) in Quebec society.
There's also a certain feeling you get in Montreal: it's a little bohemian (so a little gritty in parts) and eschews change (lacks a forward momentum and go-getter spirit in terms of embracing new things -- infrastructure is not as well kept up as in other Canadian cities, heritage building laws are very strict which is good, but it also means new developments are very restricted). I went back to visit a little more than a year ago, and nothing has changed.
I don't mean dissuade anyone from considering Montreal -- everybody wants different things in life -- but just wanted to provide a data point from someone who tried to live there unhappily. YMMV.
London, I know is about half of US if you look at FAANG comps and you have higher taxation compared to a city like Seattle.
Zurich, is about 70% with lower tax but a very high CoL
You can make a living and have a comfortable lifestyle in Canada, but it is not the best place to create or build wealth. It's where to be if you bring it with you.
Given the small and dispersed distribution of the population, startup level growth mainly comes from access to the US market. Access to the US market tends to mean being HQ'd there, so you get quite a few "offshored," engineering and development shops to take advantage of the currency, SRED tax credits, COL and salary differences, where the US HQ handles the revenue, product management, marketing, equity, M&A and other business decisions.
The two main markets for enterprise products and dev are Toronto and Ottawa. There are only five notable banks with offices across the country and around the world, who share a largely homogeneous enterprise tech culture. Health care is a public sector business, and there is lots of opportunity to make a living in health care tech, but it is managed as a sprawling enterprise centralized economy that acts as a ceiling on growth. There are some notable examples, but they use Canada as a proving ground before going to market in the US.
The way most entrepreneurial money appears to be made in Canada is by operating "recruiting and consulting firms," which provide institutions with arms length contractors that they can add and remove at will instead of dealing with the challenges of employees.
Quality of life compared to american cities in decline is incomparably better. The hard part is affording it. Owning a an actual house near a metropolitan area is out of reach for first time home buyers, and places with affordable housing are outside commuting distance from anywhere that does software development. Short term rentals have sent rents skyrocketing everywhere within a 90-minute drive to Toronto.
If you are already on the property ladder where you are, using that as leverage to buy a place here is the best way to do it. If you are not, it's smarter to get the capital from selling your first house as a downpayment to get you into something in Canada, as real estate is basically the only way for working people to build wealth.
The quality of life in Canada is wonderful if you can make the numbers work. Vancouver and Toronto offer different things so I'd research which one suits you better. They're both amazing in their own way.
I can't speak for Montreal which has its own unique culture unfamiliar to me, but I believe it's comparable to Vancouver and Toronto, and cost of living is better. It's a very distinct place.
Smaller, more affordable cities you could consider are Ottawa, Waterloo, and Victoria. They each come with their own trade-offs but have decent tech industries. Victoria is only really affordable compared to Vancouver/Toronto but it's a very idyllic small city if that's what you're after.
Is now a good time for anything? If you go through temp work permit or immigration route, these things were not fast before, they sure are even slower now.
If you do move, Toronto, Waterloo, Vancouver, Ottawa are good places in that order. Do not know much about Montreal, but outside of those you will be having a hard time finding anything.
Data science - I cannot speak much about it, but if you want to do that, governement and healthcare is probably your best bet.
However not everyone is looking to work in a FAANG or to live in the USA.
Canadá has a thriving tech scene and you will have a better quality of life and pay than about everywhere else in the world that isn’t a FAANG in the USA
- Director and above level PM can earn above: $140K CAD and beyond in major cities like Toronto.
- Sr. PM can earn: above $100K CAD easily but harder to be above $150K CAD.
- Bay Area - based on the current conversations I have: - Sr. PM or PM in a FAANG type company or startup: around $170K USD - Director level PM can be above $200K USD
We own shares in the American company and are paid through a Canadian subsidiary. That compensation scheme avoids burdening the employees with the difficulty of declaring foreign earnings come tax time.
So for the most part it's the same as working for a Canadian company, but the pay is better.
I have no idea how it works if your not a citizen. In general i think work visas are fairly easy to get if you are a skilled worker like a software engineer, especially coming from a NAFTA country.
The reason I say this is because Canada's tech scene is largely comprised of US companies near-shoring operations for cost reductions and with remote work on the rise my view is that Canada's tech scene is now in a super fragile state.
There's a significant incentive for Canadian tech workers to work remotely for US companies and similarly there's a massive incentive for US companies to hire Canadians on Canadian salaries remotely.
Uber, Facebook, Google, Amazon etc. had expansion in Canada planned but I wouldn't be surprised if this changes radically in the coming months. Shopify already announced it was going fully remote and then offered what were previously Canadian-only jobs out to the Americas entirely. It's not unfathomable that other Canadian companies will do the same.
If remote succeeds, I cannot see what incentive would drive the further expansion of the local tech scene in Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal etc. Meetups and similar only worked because people were forced to be in the city, they were held directly after work and usually offered some sort of food/beverages as a substitute to having to sort out dinner. If the requirement to be in the city falls or is removed entirely, I cannot see what will incentivize locals to get together in a common location at anywhere near the same frequency as before.
I'd recommend seeing how the rest of the year / start of next year plays out before planning anything concrete.
I haven't commuted by car in ... 17 years.
I work in the Metro Vancouver area.
How walkable cities are are going to vary by city. Vancouver is very walkable. Also if you live somewhere up north, its not going to be that walkable even with a great bus system, because waiting for the bus in -30 sucks.
It seems like his prospects were very limited. I'm not sure if it's his career choice or if it's related to the high levels of underemployment in the Toronto tech industry in general.
Source: I skipped out on a Mechanical engineering PhD to join industry for better $$, I then skipped out on Mechanical engineering industry for better w/l balance and $$ working from home in a tech role.
I've had some luck working remotely in Canada for US companies - tax treatment of stock options is worse and they typically have few or no benefits for Canadians. On the other hand, you can have a significantly higher take home if you find the right employer.