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Comment by flr03 | Hacker News Reader

Honestly there are very capable and smart engineers in France, and I don't blame the country ambition to develop its own solutions, but the SSII mafia (or how are they called now?) is killing innovation.

It's a very top to bottom decision process (starting from the Government/MP), with big bucks involved, and very little understanding of how to drive these tech projects, all the way to the bottom.

What I don't understand is the status-quo after years and years of failed projects. What a waste of tax payer money.

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Thats not really specific to France. Any large government contract in any country will go to bodyshops like Accenture, Cap Gemini, IBM, TCS etc. The difference is that the French government keeps thinking that innovation is a top-down process that can be managed like you would manage an aircraft program or a nuclear power plant

They are called ESN now. Same shit.

> there are very capable and smart engineers in France

I would not be so sure. I looked at the IT salaries there (both as a permanent and as a contractor) and it just doesn’t make sense to stay there when you could earn way more money elsewhere in Europe.

that's assuming money is the one important thing in your life though :p I'd personally need at least 3 times my current french salary to start thinking about compromising my other life choices

That's not how it works, not everyone wants to move country just for a (way) better salary.

There's definitely an IT brain drain in France due to low salaries, very few people of my former school actually work for a french company anymore, they almost all went somewhere else to get a better pay.

In the post-covid world of increased remote working, the brain drain will likely increase tenfold since developers won't even have to leave the country anymore.

I think there is a bit of a brain drain, but it's also compensated by great engineers from poorer countries (Italy, Romania, Poland etc) migrating in

If remote works, it won't really be a brain drain anymore, because they'll be paying taxes and spending their money in France :)

Is there any reason why the engineers from poorer countries will emigrate to France instead of the better-paying countries?

I don't know, I think you have to look at it with an EU scope. Within Shengen only Luxemburg and Switzerland pay significantly better than France. Germany is more or less aligned

Romanian programmer here (I still live in Romania), I would choose another European country over a well-better paid job in the US in almost all cases, the reason being that that way I'd be closer to home, we actually have decent healthcare in Europe and the social contract as a whole is more robust compared to the US (it mentally helps going out on the street and not seeing the multitude of homeless people that I've read one can find on the streets of San Francisco), public transport is decent to exceptional and for me personally there's also the gun-control issue (or lack of it, more exactly), I really don't see myself living long-term in a country as gun-loving as the US is.

I think it’s UK/Germany vs France rather than US vs France

San Francisco’s homelessness situation is an exception, certainly not the rule. It’s an entire industry in SF with a turnover of $xxx million.

Other cities in the US are much more in line with the big EU cities in that regard.

Have you been to any major French city recently? There is still a crisis of homeless refugees, there is clearly different reasoning behind why they are there but in general I'd argue the effect is the same.

1) Closer to home country. 2) No visa needed. 3) Less anti-immigrant rhetoric. 4) Better work/life balance. 5) Free healthcare.

If 10 years ago there were predominantly outfits servicing larger US/UK/Scandinavia companies, now it's shifting towards building their own products/services. Basically the guys learned how to do it and not they start spreading the wings. The only thing missing in Europe is active and mature VC sector that could match that in the US.

Less anti-immigrant rhetoric... In France?

Compared t the US? Sure. And not from the government itself.

I didn't say there's none. Every single country in Europe has varying levels of it but nowhere near to what the US have been having over the last few years.

I work with a lot of French IT people, they are all from the Grande écoles, and amazing on average. None of them work in France. What a loss!

In this case, the loss is very one-sided, most people/countries benefit from this.

There are "good" French companies where you can grow a career and get a good salary.

What surprises me is that these companies seem to either hide their French roots, and are often ignored by the academic world. When I was student in engineering school, the only companies we would hear from where the big French corps like Orange, Cap Gemini, Thales and co.

I'm sad to see that these French companies don't get the support and publicity they deserve. I hoped that the French tech thing would help these companies, but I only ever hear about startup with vague pitches founded by business school graduates which don't know a thing nor care about any "tech".

Perhaps that they feel a need to actively hide their french origins is a hint at being seen as an active downside to work with - or perhaps it is just a result of the style being set by the existing "leaders" akin to the name zeitgeist from multiword to acronym companies (IBM/Standard Oil) to single word as fashionable (Amazon, Apple, Google).

Personally I am of the philosophy that if they have to appeal to nationalism they suck as they lack any other qualifications or other features to cite first.

I don't think the definition of brain drain and remote work allowing people to stay in their country really fit together.

If I, a french worker, stay working in France, I pay French taxes and my lineage and social impact remain in France. I can't imagine how that is not a plus pour mon cher pays.

I know plenty of really capable and smart people in France that doesn't want to leave the country. Living somewhere is not just about salary, and quality of life as a software engineer is quite good in France.

Salaries have diminishing returns too. If you balance income and quality of life, if you can reach a certain point that's reasonable for you, it doesn't make sense at all to go through the trouble of moving.

Anyway the US is really at the bottom of the list. Most people would prefer anywhere in Europe or at worse Canada and Australia.

>Anyway the US is really at the bottom of the list. Most people would prefer anywhere in Europe or at worse Canada and Australia.

Too bad none of the immigration numbers bear this out.

Friendly reminder that what you prefer does not necessarily generalize.

>Too bad none of the immigration numbers bear this out.

They do. The only country in Europe I can think of where the US is the favored destination is Germany.

Note that by « most people » I was implicitly referring to my people, and in a larger sense Europeans. Not humanity at large.

I can assure you that with my salary, working as a Web developer for the french government, it makes a lot of sense to stay in France.

How much is your salary? How much is your tax rate? And your contribution sociale?

What are your monthly expenses?

One reason EU salaries are so low is that everyone is afraid of discussing their salaries.

In the USA there is levels.fyi with widely validated salaries.

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