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Comment by thenoblesunfish | Hacker News Reader

DON'T DO IT*

I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it.

But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not going to get to change the layout. 2. QWERTY actually isn't bad. Yes, the home row is largely wasted, but other than that, it's not as ludicrous as you've been reading. For evidence, look up who the fastest typists in the world are - plenty of them use QWERTY.

* if you think it's going to make you more efficient. If it's for fun, go for it. For me, it was worthwhile, because I got to forget QWERTY and re-learn with proper touch typing, not whatever 3-finger nonsense I was doing before.

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It's not about being faster, but to not suffer from RSI. QWERTY forces your hands to stay in abnormal position which can cause wrist pain. Ergonomic layouts (and column-staggered or ortholinear keyboards) are designed with that in mind.

Couldn't the hand positioning be mostly solved by remapping the few keys that pain you the most ?

For me it was the control key and escape keys, and the others keys are otherwise standard.

Also I'd argue people suffering from RSI shouldn't be striving for speed or efficiency that much. Some people switch their mouse hand or reverse buttons basically to detune, or split the load to other parts of their body, speed/efficiency be damned.

I should have said in my post that I have nothing to say about what you should do if you have serious pain from typing - from the other posts here it sounds like lots of things might help, including an ergonomic layout. I had minor pain and I did find it went away with the switch, but in retrospect, that was probably because I also focused on efficient touch-typing as I learned Workman, so I improved my posture, I think. I feel as comfortable typing now with QWERTY as I did with Workman.

  loadkeys dvorak

Now you are using Dvorak at the emergency console. Workman is more obscure, and that's a disadvantage, but Dvorak is available everywhere.

And Qwerty is awful, the home row is a huge, huge part of that problem, you can't just wave that away.

DO IT!

Don't use other people's toothbrushes. Don't fly; even if you sometimes do, don't base your life choices around airport terminals or ATMs. Do your computer first aid with a keyboard that has your layout built in so there's no need to change it. Qwerty is actually bad.

Note that you can learn a new layout without forgetting Qwerty.

If you switch between layouts while learning, you'll maintain that ability to switch. Similar to how the brain can switch languages.

I found this to be an easier way to learn, as it didn’t interrupt life as much. All of my work stayed in Qwerty until my Workman was good enough. And I still use both.

Edit: The one frustrating switch is Workman's moved copy-and-paste keys. I do press the wrong ones by accident. I would choose Norman instead of Workman today purely for that reason.

There is a truth here. But doesn't it sound like don't install applications, don't customize your system? It is a personal computer. And defaults are bad.

I can hardly type QWERTY and it is fine.

On the other hand - Dvorak, swapped Ctrl and Alt, Caps Lock to switch language. And that's in tiling WM on minor Linux distribution. When you break things you can break them hard.

I would argue pretty strongly with "defaults are bad"! Defaults are what you should use until you can very clearly explain why a customization is significantly better (and sometimes that is the case!). It's a boring, lowerst-common-denominator attitude that goes against the things that most of us here enjoy doing, but customizations are more things to think about and maintain, and ways in which my system operates differently from other people, making it harder to give and receive help.

It was not philosophical statement "all defaults are bad". I value defaults - my VIM setup become empty over years. I choose Linux distribution with defaults that match me. My setup worth a lot of trouble and costs a lot of skill. It is not universal.

But some defaults are bad. QWERTY is one of them. I have no experience in Workman but I'm suspicious of design process - author penalized hand alternation and middle column. As long time Dvorak user I can't agree. Just looking at Carpalx [1] and Neo Layout [2] - vowels in one hand home row - it can be good. QWERTY derived layouts best asset is compatibility, yet ZXCV lost to ZXCMV. I can't explain that, QGMLWB makes much more sense.

[1] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization

[2] https://www.neo-layout.org/

Also wouldn't recommend. I switched to Colemak back in the day. Switched all my phone keyboard and everything. I was a typing god.

Started a new job where I ended up having to switch to qwerty for pairing sessions, typing like I was using a computer keyboard for the first time, never mind interviews where one might need to live code on a foreign machine. Having to explain "oh hai, yeah I actually use a different keyboard layout because my fingers move less but it hamstrings me whenever I sit at _anyone elses_ keyboard" just doesn't cut it. If you've got issues that'd be helped by better typing ergonomics and really need to switch then go for it.

Otherwise, don't waste your time, just get better at typing qwerty, trust me.

What’s so difficult about it?

On Windows you just install an extra MSI for Colemak, add it to the standard desktop build and you’re off (you use win-spacebar to switch to the new keyboard quickly when sitting at the keyboard).

On Mac you just switch to that layout (cannot remember the hotkey but there is one), no install required.

Linux likely has 15 different ways to do it and you just have to pick the easiest one for you.

You just need to have a chat with your boss. He’ll probably be happy to allow something that requires zero budget and ticks an extra “ergonomics” checkbox.

I'm sorry, I've seen far too many smirks when explaining why my keyboard doesn't do the keys they want as I hurridly re-enable qwerty, or why I type like a 5 year old on their qwerty keyboard. And there's no way i'm getting someone to facilitate my keyboard fetish by installing/enabling any layouts. Plus, it's just _better_ when you can read the keys, and I can't go disassembling keyboards all the time to put the keys in the right place.

There's just too much friction. Only Apple has the power to re-educate the world's typing habits, only then will I get back on the train. I say this as someone who used Colemak for 2 whole years btw.

Can't you just plug 2 keyboards, with 1 of them GMK based?

I hear you. I did it. But am I supposed to carry it around with me in a special case for all occasions?

The short of it is that in the end, I stepped down from my horse and conceded that it was more sensible just to make peace with QWERTY and get good at QWERTY'ing. This won't be the case for everyone, I'm just trying to shed light on my experience as "the keyboard guy". Colemak worked for me. The ubiquity of QWERTY worked against me. In the end I capitulated because going against the grain wasn't worth it for me all things considered.

> I've seen far too many smirks

This reminds me of the "it's easy to be a weirdo now" thread from yesterday. (i.e. no it isn't, we just moved the window a bit)

> no way i'm getting someone to facilitate my keyboard fetish

That's demeaning to yourself. Ergonomics is important and a keyboard is a work tool. It's like saying that a basketball player has a "shoe fetish" for insisting on using a shoe that is not the same model as his teammates'.

> Only Apple has the power to re-educate the world's typing habits

What do you mean, that Apple should sell Colemak keyboards? I agree there, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

> What do you mean, that Apple should sell Colemak keyboards? I agree there, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

You're right, it's chicken and egg. But Apple have a history of making a bold stand around product features.

Phones without keypads, phones without audio jacks, laptops without CDROM, laptops without USB-A.

If someone is able to ween the world off it's QWERTY habit - it's Apple. It doesn't need to be Workman or nothing. It could be as simple as offering Workman as an alternative replacement, signalling a shift toward Workman as the future. Then one day, probably before everyone is ready, no more QWERTY MacBook. Baptism by fire is the only way, in the end.

I'm a dvorak user who wouldn't do it again if I had the chance.

The cost of learning a new layout, only to realize you have trouble using an old layout, is certainly a problem.

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