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Comment by trisiak | Hacker News Reader

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing.

I see analogy to guitar playing here. No matter how well you figure out finger positioning for a complex passage, you won't be playing with ease unless your elbow, wrist and spine are also positioned properly.

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This is so true!

There are so many quick wins to improve posture before the high-effort micro optimization of changing layouts:

- split the keyboard for better shoulder posture (eg ultimate hacking keyboard but don't stop here)

- Get a column staggered board with more thumb keys instead of row staggered for better finger movement (ergodox or iris keyboard)

- Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria)

- A sculpted and tented keyboard allows the arm to untwist. These keyboards are dish shaped which moves keys closer to your fingers. Examples are the kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl (my own creation).

I think the sweet spot for most people is the column staggered split layout.

100% this.

I'm using an ergonomic keyboard with the two halves of the keys at a slight angle and column-staggered design, and I can't imagine ever going back to a normal keyboard. Being able to enter every symbol without even moving the wrists is just too comfortable.

It's more expensive than any standard keyboard and I had to solder it myself, but it's basically customised for my fingers. I'm not typing faster, but I have much more fun doing it and fewer issues with my shoulders. I would say it's a much more important upgrade than changing away from QWERTY(which actually isn't that bad, there are a few false myths floating around about it).

The Tightyl is gorgeous, btw, and made me start to think about what a 3d printer could do for me. For others, check it out at:

https://github.com/okke-formsma/dactyl-manuform-tight/

> Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria)

Wow this is first time I hear this recommended in relation to keyboard ergonomics. As a user of compact 49 key keyboard without a num row, can at least confirm it is not bad for productivity. Numbers and symbols are on layers and thus spread over keyboard. As a programmer I use a lot of symbols and I like the compact layout more. Precisely because there is less weird finger movement away from working zone.

Another thing I can recommend on regular keyboards is angled home row finger position: sdfv and njkl instead of usual asdf jkl;. With corresponding change to zone of every finger. Elbows on arm rests, wrists are straight.

> Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing.

You're still mostly right, but Colemak does actually move Backspace to the Caps Lock key, which is a change I'd recommend to every single person who types on a computer keyboard.

This. This idea is exactly something I picked up from Colemak (while didn't really enjoy the entire layout). The ability to just press ctrl + capslock (remapped to backspace now) to delete the whole last word with a single hand is by itself a great perk.

I'm not convinced by that. I use thumb clusters now, but on a normal keyboard I would always move my whole hand and hit backspace with my right ring finger. Similarly with modifiers I would either karate chop or move my hand. Using pinky should be avoided if possible. Similarly the common recommendation to bind caps lock to control is the worst possible thing for RSI.

I'm fine using pinky because I'm a guitar player who struggled with that and fixed it by training for more than a year.

> I would always move my whole hand and hit backspace with my right ring finger.

My understanding is that (maybe non-intuitively) whole hand movements are more likely to cause wrist-related RSI than single finger travels. (Single finger travels are more likely to create knuckle RSIs, certainly.) The missing letter in RSI is sometimes "movement" as it is stress from repetitive movements.

Anecdotally, the biggest mistake and the source of most of my pain from the way I had learned QWERTY was a lot of whole hand movements, and reducing those was a very clear and specific goal for me when I relearned touch typing (on Colemak).

Hm, as a vi user i have escape there. so if i want to delete something without stretching too much, it's left thumb stretch back one left index stretch down out one (i'm on dvorak too). But since i'm also a kinesis user, i have backspace under my (right) thumb.

I had a Kinesis Advantage some ten years ago at my first job, as well as a vertical mouse; they didn't work for me in the end. Good keyboard, but it didn't fix my RSI issues.

What did help a lot was a Mac wireless keyboard (flat profile) and weight lifting, especially deadlifts that at first I couldn't do much of because of grip strength. Couldn't do pushups either due to wrist pain. But my grip strength quickly improved (I could do without the grip straps after just four or five sessions) and the wrist pain went away.

It's making a comeback now though, I've been working on a regular keyboard for a while due to working from home and haven't been in a gym for months now.

I switched to Dvorak before I started uni. I have been typing dvorak the majority of my typing.

Still discovered the hard way that I needed an ergonomic keyboard. I use a kinesis advantage, but frankly a Microsoft one will do. It just needs to be enough.

Also major factor: Switching away from a mouse. Every time I've done full time work at a computer (i.e. when I'm not studying), I got wrist pain.

Switching to a touchpad is tiring for the fingertip, since it's not designed to drag on a surface all day.

But switching to a trackball has been a fantastic choice (six or seven years ago by now - some kind of red Kensington ball). I think there's so much more choice in using a trackball than a mouse or a touchpad, since it can be operated with the fingertip or the hand, and it's trivial to operate it without bending the wrist badly.

I got the ergonomic keyboard before the trackball; but the trackball made an almost instantaneous difference, whereas the keyboard only makes a cumulative difference - nowadays I can use a straight keyboard temporarily (e.g. if I want to go somewhere and use a laptop, I can, even for weeks at a time) but I wouldn't want it fulltime.

I had the same experience. After trying Dvorak and Colemak and even stenography for a while I decided it was time to explore more hardware.

Went from mouse → trackpad → trackball. I tried fingerballs and thumbballs and settled on the Logitech MX Ergo (thumbball). Using the digit with the strongest muscles makes a lot of sense to me, although it helps to have bigger hands.

I wouldn't go back to a trackpad, even with the loss of gestures (I just use keyboard/trackball shortcuts instead), and I wouldn't go back to a mouse — pushing a rock repeatedly to move a pointer around the screen just feels weird to me now, and I notice wrist cramp within an hour.

Similar story with keyboards. I went Apple Magic Wireless → Ergodox EZ → Microsoft Surface Ergo (the default angle works great for me so I don't have to adjust anything and I like the single piece of hardware over the Ergodox; it's easier to move between rooms). I have the Keyboardio Atreus on order and am looking forward to comparing that. It seems like the perfect balance between size, features, hackability, and ergonomics to me.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/atreus

Just a warning about trackballs: I love them and have used them almost exclusively for probably 25 years. A few years ago I started getting “trackball thumb”. So I advise switching up among various different trackball geometries. (I also use the Lenovo pointing-stick keyboards in the mix. )

What helped we is switch from C++ to Ruby. I see analogy to guitar player here too.

And Dvorak of course. I can use it on notebook.

> What helped we is switch from C++ to Ruby

This is a great point. Some languages have terrible ergonomics - those which rely heavily on brackets which are poorly placed on a keyboard. Ergodox layouts tend to map brackets to the second layer on ER,DF,CV keys to mitigate this. But it's better for languages to not require braces at all.

Indeed, and if you have to work with those languages, a good templating system like emmet or yasnippet will save you a ton of typing. Let the machine do the typing for you.

I haven’t used it yet, but tools like TabNine will autocomplete more of your code:

https://www.tabnine.com/

Much of what we type is repetitive.

I suggest the advantage for everyone that talks to me about rsi and other typing related discomfort. It's just a great keyboard. Takes some getting used to (a few weird key positions but more the hardest thing for people to get used to is the way the keys are positioned in a true grid instead of staggered) but once you do you won't want to go back.

Rest assured though, you will still be able to use a 'normal' keyboard after your adjustment period.

Indeed, I like the thumb keys (2 per thumb would be enough for me though), the tap/hold feature and the central special keys on ergodox for instance.

I have not found anything like that for laptops. Not even a split space bar. The tap/hold feature is possible at the os level, with caveats.

I usually map the key left to the space bar to Enter.

What is tap/hold?

I believe some people have done portable kinesis builds, which could be an option in tandem with a laptop.

The most famous one is the dactyl[0]. I'm guessing you mean a portable kinesis advantage. There are some other kinesis keyboards which are portable.

[0] https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard

> What is tap/hold?

Tap a key, get a symbol. Hold the key, get something else (perhaps a modifier).

Not necessarily a symbol. I use "setxkbmap -option caps:super && xcape -e 'Super_L=Escape'" to make tapping Caps Lock simulate tapping Escape, and holding Caps Lock and pressing another key work as Super("Windows key") + that key in X11.

(eg. Caps alone = exit insert mode in vi, Caps + Space = Super + Space for toggling the tiling layout in my window manager dwm.)

A good example is the space cadet shift. If I tap left shift, I get an open parenthesis. If I hold it and use any other key, I get a capital letter. It's a lot nicer than hitting shift+9/0 and I got used to it in about 10 minutes.

Any keyboard using the QMK keyboard firmware can do this.

> I see analogy to guitar playing here. No matter how well you figure out finger positioning for a complex passage, you won't be playing with ease unless your elbow, wrist and spine are also positioned properly.

This is a good analogy, and instrument players all hit the fatigue issue.

On top of posture, a lot of the pro players seem to manage it with a mix of:

- regular muscle training to protect articulations

- regular resting periods and avoiding activities that hit the same moves

- medication as soon as there is any sign of things going wrong

I think there is no magic bullet (or magic keyboard/mice combination), and switching to an "ergonomic" setup is only a small part of the solution for most of us. ATP had a pretty good take on this in their 'ask app' section https://atp.fm/377

I've had pretty bad hand/wrist pain some days from overusing the command key on my macbook.

The solution for me has been to try and use the right-hand side special keys when possible, but it's hard to break the habit of using my left hand for special keys after 20 years of doing it.

MacBook keyboard + constant track pad use (like 2 months worth) was really wrecking my arm, shoulder, and wrist. I don't recommend that combo for anything but light, short spans.

It's possible to improve ergonomics with a standard keyboard by abandoning the notion that you must type with your hands locked in place by moving your fingers only. My hands are all over the keyboard when I type to avoid finger strain, and yes I can still touch type this way. Human fingers were optimized for gripping and are poorly adapted to move laterally to strike a key, so if you need to strike a key that's not within comfortable striking range, move your hand slightly.

It's one of those little ergonomic things, like "use both hands to avoid Emacs pinky", that vastly improve life.

I think this is a great analogy. A friend is a pro flamenco guitarist; plays all over the world. He's so good that he doesn't really practice to "improve" anymore. He practices to protect his biomechanics by watching himself play in a mirror. He makes adjustments to his body placement so that he can keep playing for the rest of his life.

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