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Comment by kstenerud | Hacker News Reader

That's sort of the problem. I don't have a solid baseline to work against. I observe certain behaviors like facial expressions (smiling convincingly is especially difficult), discussions about irrelevant things (except that they serve a social function), looking into someone's eyes (very difficult), certain postures that have meaning (you're bored, you're angry, you're... something) . It's a lot to keep straight in your head (both in your own exhibited behavior and observing and translating other peoples' behaviors), and if you have to think about these things consciously, it's exhausting.

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Eyes! Eyes! Is what I tell my 13 year old daughter.

But she is far more comfortable looking away while in conversation. The theory that has resonated most with me is that both facial interpretations and language processing are very cerebral processor intensive. Turning off your facial tracking algorithm by looking away frees more brain nodes to help with processing and thinking about what you are hearing and saying.

So I’m torn. Do I continually push her to look at faces during conversations, because over time it will build up more efficient neural pathways for that kind of processing? Or is it just something unique about her I can’t change and I am just causing her unresolvable stress?

> Or is it just something unique about her I can’t change and I am just causing her unresolvable stress?

Why don't you let her decide?

Because that’s not parenting? This may be an unpopular truth in today’s world, but sometimes you need to make your kids do or try things they are resistant to in hopes it gives them skills to better succeed when they are adults.

And forcing them to do something they find extremely uncomfortable makes you a good parent. No, this is not parenting.

It might be worth noting that the degree of face-watching during conversation is quite culture-dependent.

Sure, but why does this cross the line into “a kid can’t make the decision for themself”?

I've traveled the world, worked abroad, been teaching, had subtle experiences with and without other people. My world is both magical, scientific, and flat. Your hypothesis is interesting, but despite all exposure, a family evening can still tire my mind. Rather than finding a cure, be what you are.

> Do I continually push her to look at faces during conversations

I'm sure you asked this mostly rhetorically, but I thought I'd chime in with my two cents.

If your daughter is on the autism spectrum (guessing from the context) and is 13, she probably already finds socializing somewhat aversive and exhausting. Pushing her to make the experience even more aversive by insisting she look people in the eye is probably going to make things worse.

But I don't think that means that you can't change it. I would just suggest practice eye contact or looking at faces in small intervals only during some conversations. E.g. have a schedule and do a short conversation once a week where she deliberately practices it.

More generally, maybe try to think of the goal as moving the needle from where she is, not to achieve neurotypical levels of eye contact.

Im 40 and still have this problem. I remember my father saying “look into my eyes”, doing it then my mind going immediately blank. Now I don’t care, I just look away when I need to. It’s a quirk that I don’t care how it’s interpreted. And I noticed that it matters where one looks away: up slightly to right for accessing some type of thoughts, down for a deeper thinking mode, etc. I’ve been pondering for a while whether Im on the spectrum or not. I have the empathy, too much of it. I don’t have the social scripts and always have to improvise and that is tiring after a while. I often wondered how come nobody told me what to do in certain situations and I wished i was educated by someone on this. But the truth is that this is simply picked up naturally and never taught. Yes, my father suspected I may be on the spectrum but back then a lot less was known.

Find a video (youtube) where autistic people (especially women) describe how they mask. In particular, staring really hard at where the person's third eye would be, or smiling really hard at them (to the point of squinting) may work for some.

A very computer-centric theory ;-). I think it has some merit, but there can be more factors.

I've also had the eye looking problem, and yes, it was uncomfortable and harder to concentrate. But now it I'm around 30 it has become quite natural. Not a parent, but what I imagine might help besides 'just trying to do it' is seeing the use and fun of eye contact:

* Explain eye contact helps people understand you are interested in them. Of course hopefully you have some real, friendly interest in someone ;-). Friendly listening to someone and looking at them is a good step to getting more familiar/friends.

* Maybe help her recognize more of the expressions in and around the eyes. It is a very interesting part of the face. And you don't have to look someone exactly in the eye to see most of it... Besides angry/sad/happy, what are the little signs that show someone is becoming irritated, lost interest or getting bored, is thinking, is messing with you, disagrees (but maybe too polite to tell), etc. Recognizing it in movies, and possibly imitating the expressions can also be a 'safer' step.

* It works two ways. You let others see more of you by looking them in the eyes. You have to open up in a way, can get more self-conscious, and thus uncomfortable. Looking someone in the eyes can make them trust you more, helps them see your intentions, if you really mean what you say, that you know what you are saying... But you may just want to start opening up some more with people you already feel comfortable with.

Still, eye contact is culture dependent. For me, what helped me were these motivations, and that I forced myself to have on estimate 100+ little wel-intentioned conversations with strangers per week (Jehovah's Witness).

As someone who is. You don't get more efficient in that manner. You can get efficient in other ways. But there's no breaking the laws of physics, biology, or the wiring you were born with.

What you describe happens to me especially in groups. My trick is to pick a point slightly off - their forehead, a little to the side, a random visible point just past them - and focus there. It's almost imperceptible to most especially if they're caught up in the convo, and allows me to process. Sometimes in a long convo, I may have to change my focus point multiple times. It takes practice, and you only get that actually talking to people.

Another thing to keep in mind depending on severity. Depending on her niche (the 1 or 2 things her brain specializes in) social interaction over an extended period will make her mentally tired. In a large group, this can happen exponentially.

I do okay one on one. Or in groups of up to half a dozen or so. However, I built my coping mechanisms over 30+ years. Even then, I have to pace myself, for example if I am at a party. I've spoken to large groups before as part of my day work and volunteer work. 2-4 hours at a party or 20-60 minutes in front of 100+ people, and I am exhausted. This is because the part of the brain I'm using for that task in me wasn't built for that.

If you want an analogy, imagine the hardware bits of a computer for an analogy of my brain. Now imagine all the parts are wired together differently from the standard architecture of such a system. The GPU is being used for CPU tasks, so other part is being used for a purpose not originally designed, and so on. The OS has been written to compensate for the architecture change but there's no documentation and the person who wrote it has vanished. Topper, the video and audio outputs instead of going to a monitor and speaker are hooked instead to a blender full of margarita mix. Basically, that's my life.

That doesn't mean she can't make friends and have a fulfilling life. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel as much as others. If anything, my emotions are probably more intense than a lot of folks. Aggravated by not being able to express them effectively. The friends you do make and keep mean that much more, especially if they know what you are. If also means she may feel her failure to keep some friends more deeply. I have kept friends through adulthood and a war or two. I've also lost some and I will never stop missing that particular part of my soul.

Try the slightly off focus point trick, give it time and practice.

She's old enough to know the tradeoffs, and she can probably make the choice for each occasion. She can be eye contact averse, which will be deemed off putting by people who don't know her personally just yet, and may make bad first impressions. Or she can make the conscious choice to maintain eye contact at appropriate levels (for some people that literally means having to count silently and look away at regular intervals, because non-stop eye contact is also off putting), at the cost of finding the occasion tiring and needing to curl up somewhere afterwards.

(FWIW, the lock down has limited my social activity to circles that tolerate my eye contact aversion, and I am taking advantage of it to get what slack I can)

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