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Comment by throw0101a | Hacker News Reader

In Ontario, Canada, some condo boards for town house developments (like home-owner associations) didn't like people putting up laundry lines and so prevented them since backyards were considered "common elements" and under group jurisdiction.

So the provincial government had an existing law that prevented the use of "renewable energy" systems from being blocked by local by-laws and such. So they classified clothes lines as a renewable energy system so people could use "solar power" to dry their clothes as a energy conservation mechanism.

> "There's a whole generation of kids growing up today who think a clothesline is a wrestling move," [Premier] McGuinty said during his announcement.

* https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-premier-lifts-outdoor-clo...

The current Ford government repealed the law that allowed for this, so I'm not sure what the legal status is now exactly.

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I have a similar clause in my rent contract in Germany, forbidding line drying, and first I didn't really understand why people care about this (I planned to use the communal dryer anyway).

But to be explicit, it's because the optics of visible laundry makes people associate to poor people who have no other drying options. They don't want the neighborhood to look like poor neighborhoods.

Maybe it will become one of those environment-conscious hip modern things and then they will start allowing it again...

Meanwhile, living in Japan, if you tell people you prefer to machine dry your clothes, they’ll tell you outright that it’s wasteful. The assumption is that it’s only used when rain makes it impossible.

In Spain the attitude is similar, but for different reasons.

Environmental consciousness is sadly low in general, but cult to fashion and looks is strong. Machine drying anything but towels and sheets would be considered shabby by most, as it damages clothes.

When I was looking for housing, I visited some really luxury apartments (that I could never afford, but visiting is free and I'm a curious person, so why not) and having a good place to line dry clothes was always seen as a boasting point, never associated to poverty in the slightest.

I guess that you still centrifuge clothes, but do not tumble-dry them?

yes

> Machine drying anything but towels and sheets would be considered shabby by most, as it damages clothes.

So does UV light.

But less.

Depending on the clothing item, turning it inside-out may help (e.g., reduce colour fade).

Not only that, but it helps protect screen printed elements on graphic tees and such.

Your clothes get faded in the sun. A dryer quickly wears down the fabric and makes holes.

I remember reading somewhere where an author realized all that lint they collected from their dryer was a result of their clothes literally falling apart fiber by fiber. In other words all the mass of the lint didn't just spontaneously form breaking some conservation of mass law but came from the clothes shedding and abrading against each other.

On the Swedish west coast where it's often windy and sunny we typically line dry our laundry. We do have a machine dryer, but it's typically only really used when there's too much humidity in the air (which doesn't happen often) or it's raining. Line drying typically yields better and more even results in my experience, especially when it's breezy.

Most of the dryers I've seen there didn't have external vents, and were often combined with the washer. They were really lousy at drying. Do you think that's part of it?

Another reason is that if you do it inside your flat (which many people do in Germany) and then do not open your windows enough there will be mold. Especially in winter this can be a problem.

It’s not true. If building has any reasonable ventilation (and it must have one in order to pass inspection and norms) it should has at least 3-4 air exchanges per hour. So drying inside wouldn’t make that much of a difference to cause mold by itself. It may be different if ventilation system is not functioning properly but in that case it should be fixed anyway.

Are you refering to German building codes here? Most German apartments that I know have no active ventilation system except in the bathroom and maybe the kitchen.

As far as I know, yes (although I don't live in Germany) but with disclaimer that it possibly allows old buildings to stay with the ventilation they were build with (which used to have decent ventilation via fairly poorly airtight doors and windows). It doesn't matter whether it's active (and by active you mean having ventilation hole in the room or fan?) or not – it should provide necessary exchange anyways. Maybe it's not true for the old buildings that weren't updated but in that case they are not healthy to stay in – whether with or without line drying.

That can happen (look out for dew on windows), but usually the heating season leads to the air being too dry. That's uncomfortable and can e.g. damage wooden instruments.

You'll probably get as much moisture in the air from a hot shower or boiling a bunch of pasta.

Regardless of the source of moisture, this is a sign of poor construction via not using proper building science. The vapour barrier needs to be on the warm side of the insulation so there are no cold spots where condensation can occur.

I mean, sure, but many of the houses are old. The bathroom and kitchen usually have ways to deal with excess moisture, but no space to hang the laundry. The other rooms have space but no such provisions.

However, if you don't start to modify things you can basically carry on forever by law (currently). (E.g. the wiring in our flat precedes the second world war, which is legal if you don't make changes. No, I don't approve.)

Not that you claimed anything else but: A bit less than half of all households in Germany have a dryer[1], air drying is very common. Your landlord cannot prevent you from drying clothes within your flat, any terms to that end in your lease are void ([2], IANAL).

[1] https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Einkom... still more than I expected

[2] https://www.mieterbund.de/index.php?id=597

Running a dryer in my Northern German apartment in the summer was miserably hot. I can see why they're rare in places without widespread AC.

Banning line drying is the kind of thing you do when you're afraid your neighborhood might be mistaken for poor if there are a few backyard clotheslines. It's a middle-class class anxiety thing.

I wonder if these methods would be allowed if one put up a frosted glass greenhouse of sorts to obscure the view yet allow sufficient light and wind to pass to allow them to dry reasonably well.

When I was in high school my family lived in a housing development that was designed to be somewhat environmentally friendly -- houses were small, the development was largely open prairies, people did not have lawns, etc. Of course, someone decided to line-dry their clothes, and the HOA told them to stop. I guess the environment is all fine and nice until you have to see someone's underwear in their backyard.

(I believe that the people told to stop made a big stink about it and had the rules changed. So common sense did prevail. But no doubt plenty of people are producing CO2 to dry their clothes right now because someone thinks that drying clothes outdoors reduces their property value.)

We once rented a flat, in a nice building housing mainly retired people. One day we gave the place a good cleaning and hung out a mat to dry on the balcony. Within half an hour the residents association which we didn't know existed were knocking on our door and demanding we take in the offending item.

I will never until my dying day, live under the thumb of an association. Its a magnet for pedantic busybodies.

Which is also why I lean towards libertarianism...

Sometimes your choice is between a shorter commute and an HOA. Avoiding an HOA may cost you 5-10 extra minutes twice a day, 5 days a week.

I completely agree with you, and at the same time, that criteria can turn an already difficult search into an impossible one.

Just to bring this into sharper focus: 10 minutes a day, twice a day, 5 times a week for 50 weeks a year amounts to 5000 minutes per year, or just a little over 83 hours. Personally, I would find that acceptable just to not have to live in a place where people tell me what signs I can place in my lawn or what color I can paint my front door, but opinions can and do vary from person to person.

Oh, and BTW, the word "criteria" is plural. Its singular form is "criterion." Not that it takes away from your point, but consider it a tiny piece of friendly advice.

> Just to bring this into sharper focus: 10 minutes a day, twice a day, 5 times a week for 50 weeks a year amounts to 5000 minutes per year, or just a little over 83 hours.

Or two full-time work-weeks worth of extra time, just spent commuting, every year. Definitely not worth it to me; in practice, the primary interaction I have with my HOA is the continued requirement to pay them.

(All else being equal, I'd much rather not have one, but I wanted a walkable commute more.)

> Oh, and BTW, the word "criteria" is plural. Its singular form is "criterion."

Not anymore: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criterion#usage-1 . "The plural criteria has been used as a singular for over half a century." Much like "data" and "datum", it's no longer an observed distinction; "this data" and "this criteria" are entirely correct.

But in any case, I was talking about both HOAs and distance, so a more elaborate form would have been "that combination of criteria". One could also argue that an HOA is a whole collection of related problems in and of itself.

Its not like the commute is useless time. I did it for years, and being alone with my thoughts (or the radio or an audiobook) was just another part of my life. Still I prefer not doing it, agreed.

Anyway, false dichotomy? Not all housing choices within range are burdened with an association?

> Anyway, false dichotomy? Not all housing choices within range are burdened with an association?

That depends on where you are; in some cities, the vast majority of housing developments have an HOA.

As someone without a hope in the world for owning a house any time soon, what kind of teeth do these associations actually have to enforce their whims?

If in the US, in some states even up until foreclosure.

Depends on the HOA's, which I would avoid at all costs.

As part of the purchase, you are given the deed restrictions and you contractually agree in the closing process to follow them. We once backed out of a purchase when we read the overly strict restrictions.

You also contractually agree that the association has the ability to fine you for violations and put a lien on your property if you don't pay. There are plusses and minuses. The minuses are obvious - PITA, picky busybodies, limited paint colors, landscaping restrictions, etc. The plusses are that in general, the whole neighborhood is typically better maintained - paint, lawn, general upkeep, etc. which affects your property value.

Can't you buy from the owner and not sign the contract with the HOA? Presumably the HOA has a contractual grievance with the prior-owner; or are such HOA contracts enshrined in criminal law?

My guess is that the restriction is already on the existing deed, originating with the first sale from the builder of the community. So it transfers with the property.

HOA restrictions/membership are part of the deed of the property, so you can only acquire the property subject to those restrictions/that membership.

It depends. Unless membership is optional, I would consider it a lesser value home. Which is ironic given its intended function is to (possibly) keep one asshole from ruining property values, in exchange for a different set of assholes (possibly) destroying value in another way.

The history of government is trying to trade out different sets of assholes. It's a hard problem.

Exactly.

HOAs sound crappy but they're better than living next to assholes/slobs when you have zero recourse. HOA is really the only entity that will care about assholes. The problem with buying a home is that you don't know what your neighbors are like ahead of time.

FYI, some municipalities have democratically driven regulations; this seems like a much better course if you’re not trying to make a homogenous neighborhood.

Depending on the municipality, "democratically driven regulations" are there to make it harder to deal with the asshole neighbor, not less.

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