Did the Italians Teach the French the Art of the Vinaigrette? | Hacker News Reader

Did the Italians Teach the French the Art of the Vinaigrette?

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45 pointsVigier25 comments

The Italian influence on France since the Middle Ages has been vast and underappreciated. I speak French and I like learning the etymology of words with a good dictionary, and I am astounded at how many ordinary French terms are actually borrowings from Italian.

Italy was the cool culture (or rather, the cool cultures) to emulate during the Renaissance; some borrowing is not that strange. A lot of artists and intellectuals felt they needed to travel Italy at that time and until the romantics in the 19th century, so they were lots of contacts besides the Italian wars.

Purely out of curiosity, which words surprised you the most? AFAIK etymology for a lot of them are quite murky, but off the top of my head, “quarantaine” is a nice one. Even though they prefer “quatorzaine” these days...

> Purely out of curiosity, which words surprised you the most?

Bank (banque) is a fun one. It comes from the Lombard money lenders who used benches as makeshift tables. That's also why the root of the word is germanic despite coming from Italy.

I had blogged about the origin of the word here:

Bank of America to rebuild tech stack with Python at core:

https://jugad2.blogspot.com/2013/10/bank-of-america-to-rebui...

The third comment on the post is also about the word bankrupt, although said to be a folk etmyology here.

That is so interesting! It has also found its way into the vocabulary of regional Indian languages, via the Portuguese[0]. Pronounced "baak", it's a common word to denote school benches.

[0]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AC%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%95

The word “bankrupt” comes from the process of ritually breaking said benches of a merchant who couldn’t make due on their debts.

That’s especially a fun one because it’s true even though it sounds totally apocryphal.

Wikipedia and Etymonline label it as a probably folk etymology.

Shucks. I went for a quick google which seemed to confirm, but oh well.

Alas. It was a good anecdote, past tense.

I didn’t know that. Nice one!

The (eastern) Roman Empire was cool, because it was sitting in the middle of eurasian trade. Then Byzantium fell, and merchants (and hence artisans and scholars) fled to the other end of the mediterranean trade routes (less a Renaissance than a Déménagement), and Italy was cool. Then some atlantic countries figured out how to sail to asia, and they were cool...

I am curious how you check to be sure the words are not just from ancient latin?

Because Italian shows different reflexes of Vulgar Latin phonemes then French does. So if a word is present in French with a phonetic outcome different from most words of Latin origin in French, then you can tell it is a later borrowing. Also sometimes you can trace the slow spread of an Italian word first to the medieval Occitan dialects spoken in southern France, and then only later into French spoken further north.

Thanks.

Well appreciated in fact, for over 2000 years. You know ... Rome.

My post wasn't referring to the impact of the Roman Empire in terms of originally bringing Latin to France which, of course, everyone knows about. Rather, I was referring to the later wave of Italian > French borrowings post AD 1000 when Latin had long since diverged into the different Romance languages, and Italian was considered a prestige language in certain contexts.

Gads, with all the OP, no actual modern, actionable recipe for Vinaigrette!

[Uh, safe to say that currently Vinaigrette is not a stew with all four stomachs of a cow!]

Here's my current standard: In a bowl of 1+ quarts, combine all but the oil and with a French style wire whip mix:

2/3 C (cup) red wine vinegar

1 1/2 T (tablespoon) finely minced garlic

3 T Dijon mustard

1/2 T dried basil

1/2 T dried oregano

2 T dried parsley

1/2 t salt

pepper (to taste)

2 C olive oil

While whipping, dribble in the olive oil to make an emulsion, held together by the mustard.

For a more delicate flavor, for the herbs, use only thyme.

Use on green salads, cooked, cold vegetables, e.g., green beans, artichoke hearts, sliced cold meats, maybe some more.

What can be somewhat better, make a Vinaigrette for a Caesar salad by including with the above and before the oil:

1 egg boiled 10 seconds (to sterilize the outside of the shell), make a better emulsion, and add some flavor and viscosity

1 T Worcestershire sauce

One 2.0 ounce can flat anchovies packed in oil, minced, with oil

Toss with washed, dried, chilled Romaine lettuce and top with croutons (flavored with garlic and olive oil) and grated Parmesan cheese.

Can serve both with French bread, maybe also with curls of sour cream butter.

Either can be good.

Indoors can show off a nice table setting. Outdoors can just make a big show!

For still more, can serve the Caesar salad with chunks of, say, grilled chicken.

Since recently moved, have not done either Vinaigrette in a while. Have accumulated nearly everything needed. Sooooo, time to do it again.

Ah, "One of the good old-time flavors left to enjoy!".

You can always tell an American salad dressing, because it has way too many ingredients.

A vinaigrette consists of olive oil (3 parts) and good vinegar (1 part), shaken well. That's it. Maybe a dab of mustard, a pinch of salt, a twist of pepper. My mom -- controversially -- add a pinch of sugar. But dried herbs, garlic, mon Dieu, no.

IIRC there is a remark in the first movie Indiana Jones "Americans always overdressing for the wrong occasion."!!!

I did use the 1:3 ratio!! :-)!!

For the garlic, and as for another response here, maybe just cut one clove and rub the inside of the salad bowl with the cut surface!! Isn't there a remark in Julia Child that in French cooking there is usually some garlic in there whether the recipe says so or not? Yes, yes, I know, Child was not French! :-)

I should have included that the strength of the garlic and herbs can vary a lot.

I should have included that, at least in the US, the concentration of the acetic acid in the vinegar is a standard, except for photographers!

I just said "olive oil", and that is what I use, but, sure, could consider extra virgin olive oil and then be open to a huge range of additional flavors.

If use my thyme option, my recipe is close to yours!!!

For the red wine vinegar, there are some rumors that, shockingly, such vinegar from native American red grapes is actually better although I have yet to compare with vinegar from Romanee Conti.

American vegetables are tasteless compared to home grown or those available in most of Europe. Need all those spices if the core ingredients has no depth of flavor.

I like to rub the garlic on the inside of the bowl, and added a little dijon can't be skipped IMO

All I use is olive oil, Djion mustard, salt, pepper. Whip it with a hand mixer until thick.

Yes. And not only that.

(I'm italian)

Still, the art of bidet seems to be less sexy to them.

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