Ask HN: I'd like to learn vocals, any suggestion on how I can do this?
I'm thinking of paying a tutor online, but I'm curious about other ways to go about it
You may want to check this out- online classes from Berkeley- I saw that you were nearby... https://cjc.edu/workshops/ I know Kate McGarry and have heard Dena DeRose teach many times- both phenomenal singers and teachers of singing. Both classes look interesting! You could also email Kate or tweet to her to see if she might know a good accompanist or vocal teacher or if she herself does lessons outside the music school.
There is also SFConservatory, but I don't know the whole faculty there.
Having tried it, I think singing is poorly suited to self-learning. In my experience, vocal lessons are designed around identifying and overcoming problems and habits that are unique to each person. Identifying problems is done by ear or by observing subtleties in body posture, which require experience and training.
Particularly I'd mention Eric Arcenaux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5hS7eukUbQ
Listening to podcasts by performers about their daily routine might be useful if you want to know what they need to do to care for their voice in order to be able to perform daily.
Now, having said all that. I have had really positive experiences with a teacher who teaches CVT (Complete Vocal Technique). I'm sure a huge part of this was the individual teacher I found, but every lesson I walked away feeling like I had learned something new and had improved my technique. If there's a licensed CVT teacher near you, I'd highly recommend trying them.
My vocal coach (Greg Delson) is incredible and teaches Complete Vocal Technique. He does online lessons, group lessons, etc... that are worth looking into:
There is only one thing you can do: find a good teacher. You don't have experience related to singing, so you are not even able to diagnose what you are doing wrong and start working on it. You accidentally start pushing yourself into direction opposite to what you should be doing as I did at some point. Also, it's important to find a good one: if a teacher suggests something, then you try it for a few weeks and nothing changes, then maybe it's time to find another one. I'm not saying you can learn everything in a month, but you should at least notice something is changing and and understand what exactly you are working on. If the teacher can't explain what exactly you should improve (and how) other than "sound better" then likely it's not a good teacher. I cannot stress how important is finding the right teacher. Two lessons with right guy I found were much more effective than everything else I did beforehand for years (youtube tutorials, lessons with other people, trial and error). Don't try to be cheap: few weeks with someone who knows what they are doing can take you further than months with someone who doesn't (obviously I'm not saying that all good teachers are expensive and all cheap are bad. What I'm saying is that there is SO MUCH DIFFERENCE between an average and a great teacher that it's often worth paying for example twice as much). One more thing about teachers is try to get demos of their students and see if you like how they sing.
Another piece of advice: get used to recording and listening to yourself. It's frustrating, but it's second best thing I did after finding a good teacher. I can't imagine making progress on singing without recording. And you can record yourself on a smartphone/laptop/whatever for practice purposes, no need to buy any audio equipment.
But it doesn't really matter actually, because once in a choir you will meet people, learn from other people, learn about other choirs, and it's quite normal that people switch to different choirs every so often.
Also, people say that a choir is important for one's musical development, and I have to agree (having done solo singing before singing in a choir).
PS: the first few sessions may feel overwhelming but this is quite normal and most choir members have learned that new people will need some time to get accustomed to singing. In my experience, most new people will sing along very softly, and then suddenly after a few weeks they will become more confident and more audible. This is totally normal.
PPS: until the covid19 situation is over, perhaps "online" lessons as others have mentioned are a better idea.
Also, second everyone who is saying get a voice coach. Very valuable in surprising ways.
Just wanted to as you how much that cost (approximately)? If you don't mind sharing
https://www.youtube.com/user/EricArceneaux
Start with the warmups, work on breath fundamentals, and sing for the love of singing :)
A good vocal coach in person is fantastic, but expensive.
Difficulty level: starting from utter scratch, middle-aged.
If that won't work for you and you're set on in-person lessons, try to find someone who was never a natural singer, and had to learn everything from scratch. They'll be able to pass on more than someone who started with a basic natural ability.
She is a piano prof at Juilliard and I believe runs one of their startup/business courses, so she’s put a lot of careful thought into this (but I’m sure would appreciate feedback).
Disclosure: I am completely unaffiliated with her company, but have been using it during this period of SIP. If you have any questions or feedback about TR, feel free to reach out.
While there are plenty of resources available online and there are countless self-taught singers it's easy to acquire unhealthy habits, which in turn might also limit your progress and ability over time.
Latency can be a problem with anything music-related in an online setting, though. Apart from that, singing is very much a physical activity and some feedback from your body might be missed due to limitations of the medium.
Nevertheless, it certainly is a viable and tested approach (with many teachers and even well-known singers offering personal training online) and worth a try.
With her feedback I am able to self adjust to reflect my personality when I speak Korean.
Personally, I feel like getting a tutor to "teach you" something in the artsy space may slow down your search to find your own voice that resonates with you. Maybe you can pay a tutor to just "listen to you" and tell you what you sound like to the other person.
On the other hand, if your goal is to just to imitate other singers, I would suggest getting a tutor to teach you like many other are suggesting.
Not trying to discourage anyone, but if your goal is to become a singer people outside of family/friends enjoy hearing for free or money learn how to sing on key then sing for others. You will know then and there by their response to your singing if you have that gift or not. Though many with that gift are born with perfect pitch and can sing on key innately (lucky ones).
A great To distinct singing voice like Kelly Clarkson, Norah Jones, Karen Carpenter, Louis Armstrong, Barbara Streisand, Robert Plant, Allison Kraus, Carrie Underwood, Jennifer Hudson, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion and many other popular singers is a innate or god given talent. No vocal coach is going to change that...they can help your pitch and breathe but they can't change your tone/quality of voice that compels people to want and or pay you to hear you sing!
Incidentally, no matter how beautiful the "born with" part, some of those who are most "born with" that impossibly gorgeous tone quality have a much harder time than the rest of us with the accepting of themselves and their imperfections (few, if any in the vocal department) and being vulnerable and ok with who they are. In fact, in the case of Carpenter and Whitney- it killed them —they were unable to sustain this vulnerability.
To your question: "So you have taught someone to change the tone/quality of the voice they were given to the point where ppl pay to hear them sing?" Well, not to change it fundamentally, but to embody it and learn to enhance it and present it with skill and generosity so that others (collaborators, audience members) will be compelled/motivated/helped by its vulnerability, truth, intention and whatever it's about-- this is essentially my job as a teacher of music. Just an FYI--- music is not about who pays to hear it- that is not the mark of its power or greatness. Does it change your life? That's it! (People pay for some crazy bad stuff.)
Also, Louis Armstrong has a very distinct voice and no one I've heard sings a Wonderful World better.
I pursued my dream as a kid I started to hear songs in my head I hadn't heard before. That led me to Nashville to finish college and pursue my Songwriting dream. There you have to be the best of the best and many of those don't make it as they didn't get their break. While pursuing my dream I played/performed in many guitar circles amongst 5 to 10 songwriters. People will let you know if they want to hear you again vs. the next guy or my girlfriend at the time who usually was the best in each circle we played in. That doesn't mean I don't write Or perform anymore and enjoy it..I'm always just a realistic person.
If you need a place to get started, you might just look for a few YouTube videos or tutorials about that. It gives you extra volumes of breath, so you can belt out the notes and hold them longer. Everything else follows from that.
The situation is, I've known that I should find a teacher for many years. However, I can be quite stubborn and have instead been recording myself playing guitar/singing for the past several years. With debatable progress.
I know I should find a teacher, but what should I look for? My guitar is fine.. I've played since I was 12 and had a lot of lessons back then. So I feel better about self-studying guitar.
I've also been singing for that long, but without any actual instruction. Help!
For example, if you try to sing a note on the top of your range you will likely resort to "muscling" the note by adding tension, but this approach if far from optimal, and will limit the amount of range you can add.
This is coming from me as a semi-professional classical vocalist, but I will also admit that my advice is likely much less useful for people interested in the kind of singing common in country or indie/folk music, as these kinds of music require much less technical complexity in their vocal production.
> My guitar is fine
> I've ... had a lot of lessons.... So I feel better about self-studying guitar
> I've also been singing ... without any actual instruction.
> Help!
So what's the difference between the thing you feel better about and the thing you feel worse about? What did you learn from your guitar teacher that you wouldn't have learned alone? It won't be the same for voice, but it'll be analagous.
More specifically, for learning, feedback is best when given immediately. A voice coach would be able to give immediate feedback, rather than you (potentially) discovering it later on on your own.
Also, an experienced coach will be able to match your weaknesses with exercises specifically chosen to address the challenges you are facing. Exercises appropriate for your current level and practicing the skills you need.
Finally, there is a lot of subtlety in vocal technique. There are tons of things that most people do not notice in self-observation or through recordings that a coach can pick up on and help you through.
Worse, without the feedback of a teacher, you can easily neglect a major weakness, develop a bad habit without knowing it, or even destroy your vocal chords.
Quit seeing the vocal coach if it's too expensive and you're confident you can do the exercises on your own
I also encourage everyone reading this to try and learn singing. It's surprising what even a month of practice can do to your voice.
I truly believe that "bad singers" don't exist.
I absolutely marvel at what pop singers can do with ornaments, seemingly hitting a whole series of notes in rapid succession, in tune. Maybe they're using an autotuner? :-(
For what it's worth, I've improved my ability to sing with accurate pitch, by imagining the pitch in my head before I sing it.
There's also this which is useful but not great.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tadaoyamao...
Singing judiciously limits you creatively in the short term. Singing passionately can limit you creatively in the long term, as you burn out your instrument.
Try out a handful of teachers and choose someone who matches your goals and levels.
Try to practice little and often. Don't overdo it.
Expect progress to take a long time. Of the order of years.
Good luck.
I've been singing semi-professionally for the last two decades asas part of a wide variety of musical endeavors.
What you need to do to sing in a choir is very different than what you need to do to front a blues band. Singing in a broadway-style musical is very different than singing, say, bluegrass harmonies.
There is a lot of overlap, but how you approach learning stuff varies quite a bit.
* Tuning
Good tuning software is a vocalists best friend, even if you don't struggle with pitch issues. Don't like the timbre of your voice? Good tuning software has the ability to manipulate the "formant" of a voice, which if used in conjunction with some pitch shifting can make a woman's voice sound like a man's, or vice versa. Tuning software is also invaluable for visualizing the notes that you're singing. I use tuning software to help me compose and finalize my vocal melodies. I start with my scratch vocal take and push notes around until I have a consistent result I'm happy with, melodically speaking. These tuned scratch takes become "guide tracks" that I can have in my headphones while recording new takes. You can also turn them into MIDI tracks to aid in composing other parts.
* Comping
Comping is where you create a good composite track out of a bunch of mediocre ones. I do like 8 takes of each part, and then I pitch correct all of them so they conform to my official melody, referencing my guide track as needed. I also clean up the timing of sung notes at this stage (another great use of tuning software) to make sure that I'm not too far off the beat. Small slop is OK.
I have 8 tracks now of tuned vocals that are mostly bound to the grid, which makes it easier to select the best bits from each track to create a composite. I try to focus on the notes/lines that convey the most emotion and feeling, I comp those 8 tracks down to 3 or 4 decent ones. The best one I save for my lead vocal, the rest I use for doubles and harmony parts.
* Double up
Choruses need big vocals right? You can use your extra tuned and tightened tracks to double (or triple, quadruple) up your vocals and pan them left/right to make them sound bigger and better. Because they're unique tracks and not copies this will sound wide, and because you left in some minor timing slop, it will sound tight, but not robotic. You can also use doubles in non-chorus parts to emphasize certain words or phrases.
* Harmony
Harmony tracks can really sweeten and thicken a vocal. It'll definitely help to learn some music theory to understand the right notes for your harmony parts, but you can also just do it by ear. I take a one of my comps, and push the notes around with tuning software so it becomes a harmony against the lead vocal. Sometimes these extreme tuned artificial harmonies can sound robotic, but if you blend them in subtly and/or play with the formants they can work well. If not, you can use them as a guide track to re-record organic parts, but that's more work. Use harmony parts the same way you might use doubles.
When looking for a teacher, I wouldn't try to find "the best" or "most virtuoso" around, but what works for you. Try several teachers, get some sessions with 2-3 and find which one is the one that motivates you the most, and understands you the most. A teacher is like a coach and a partner in an adventure... the most important thing is that they can make you progress and keep you motivated.
Good luck :)
Taking a single course in college that got me a little one-on-one attention (just one in a class of ten or so) improved my technique so significantly that I can compare recordings of myself from before and after that class and it's night and day. I don't think I'd have figured out what I was doing wrong without that attention, but they were able to hear it instantly and recommend solutions.
And that's with a solid decade plus of experience in choirs prior to taking that class, it's not like I was a true novice. It's just really not as easy or obvious as it looks.
For context, I'm an amateur guitarist with an interest in singing Sufjan Stevens songs.
For lessons particularly, err on the side of thinking you’re not the problem. You’re paying hourly for this, and if you don’t click with the teacher it could be fairly expensive to “make it work”. Some people are also great artists but terrible instructors. That wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for the fact that they are also often completely ignorant of that fact.
"music lessons near $location"
the challenge will be entirely in trying them to see who you like, not finding them.
I went to Japan as an exchange student when I was 16. I had never studied Japanese at all. The thing that surprised me the most was how hard it was for foreign students to unlearn the bad things they learned inside their American classrooms by listening to their friends.
Most of them picked up bad pronunciations, bad grammar practices. Even if they were diligent (which is being generous for the high students they sent over with me), they would hear other students speaking in ways that made sense to them from their perspective of how English works. They would hear and repeat Japanese words in the bad pronunciation style their friends in class did, and those ways make sense. But, none of those practices were what Japanese people did.
I often remark on how fortunate I felt to have only learned Japanese in a setting where I only heard correct pronunciation and heard statements made by natives. In three months I was ahead of others who had studied back in the US for two or three years or more.
I would really love to see if anyone has studied this effect inside the world of software engineering. We pride ourselves in the hacker culture where self-directed learners are glamorized, but I wonder whether having good teachers and getting good feedback early on would make a large or small difference long term. This could be a startling alternative to the "naturally brilliant prodigy" stories we always hear.
Instead, the engineers I appreciate on my team has very little to do with what they know. Instead of hiring engineers who only cares about the latest and greatest, I value engineers who: communicate openly, write good tests, and cares about the product enough to fix bugs without having someone create a jira ticket for them, and has good debugging skills.
When I'm not at work, I teach coding to a small group of self learners in my local community by telling them to focus on user experience and writing good tests instead learning every popular libraries out there. Its okay to know only 1 or 2, it is important to know it well. Together, we work on an open source project with 100% test coverage: https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app
We hired one of these students who was a core contributor and I hope to hire more directly once more recs opens up onto my team.
Yes, true, but on the other hand, singing comes naturally to some people which makes me think that most other people have already developed bad habits before they even started singing. At least that would hold for me when I started singing.
Therefore I'd say that the technical aspect of singing == unlearning of bad habits.
Source: I'm a vocalist in a big band.
- decide if you have the confidence to sing or not. (Some intrumentalists don't.)
- after you want to sing, get a vocal coach. Singing for a career is the hardest musician job. Your whole lifestyle needs to accommodate your voice wrt food, rest, recovery. If you can't afford a coach, watch some intro Youtube videos and practise for a few couple months.
Here are the problems:
- every vocalist you know has had vocal cord surgery. Even Band-maid. Bon Jovi had a nightmare of vocal problems.
- because they yell at the mike, instead of talking to the mike musically, and letting the PA amplify it. At the turn of the 1900s, this was well-known. Somehow that fact was lost in the 1960s until today.
Seriously, get a coach or you will destroy your vocal cords and prematurely end your career. The stress of deciding if you and your band can perform the next booking or not is shattering.
(There's a video of Justin Bieber on Youtube talking to his mom and manager backstage about throat problems and what to do next, with 20,000 paying, screaming fans outside waiting. Talk about stress.)
They have a frequency analyzer that's great for looking at your voice output and comparing it against notes.
There's also a cool java app for monitoring your tone
You need to just sing. Sing along with your favourite songs, sing with heart.
Then ... you may either want to get a bit of coaching, possibly sing with a choir.
Most singers were really quite good before they had formal coaching, and many have never had any coaching at all.
One of the more challenging things is pitch ... some people sing out of tune, have no idea, and it sounds bad. Oddly, this is something a 'voice coach' will have difficulty fixing. This tends to be something that people 'have' or they 'don't' - it can be learned surely, but it's oddly not a 'singing specific' issue. Playing around on a piano, singing the notes, trying to get them to match. So if you have a pitch problem, it will be a separate can of worms, but the more musical exposure you have, via anything, the better you'll get.
There's a reason that so many pop/rock singers ruin their voices, it's because they don't get training.
First - unambiguously, the vast majority of people who sing learned to do so reasonably well before any hint of real coaching, other than possibly little bits that a student/church choir teacher may be able to help with.
It's misrepresentative to hint that an amateur singer, singing occasionally for fun, will somehow how run into trouble, physically, without this. In fact, the majority of people who 'sing a lot' will never have such problems. I sang in a 16 part Jazz choir in my youth, and have always been involved in music, and I don't even recall anyone in my circle losing their voice or having voice trouble (I don't doubt that it's possible), and I don't recall anyone getting specific voice lessons either, that said being part of a choir helps, but we weren't hugely focused on technique in that kind of specificity. Most non-famous pop act singers have not had any real formal training - it's simply unnecessary.
Singing is a little bit like running, you just need a pair of shoes, if you do it a lot and enjoy it, you will get better and it will mostly come naturally. If you are part of any kind of singing group, like a choir, you'll pick up some really simple things that will take you a really long way. If you want to get even better, you can get some coaching, but you don't need it.
The other thing I will add is that a 'singing coach' might move you into a more formal way of singing that might clash with your own creative sensibilities. Many old-school rock stars sing 'terribly' from a technical perspective, but they didn't know better, it's just 'how they do it' and it enabled them to have their own unique flavour. A singing coach early on who moved them into a more 'choral' way of singing ... might have taken that uniqueness away.
In every children's choir, there are a handful of great singers who haven't taken highly specific instruction with respect to technique, singing is natural. Probably a 10 minute, basic youtube instruction would go quite far in terms of basic things just as it might be for amateur running tips.
Big caveat: in my own personal experience, everyone grew up with music i.e. choir, instruments, etc. which will lead to different outcomes and perspectives than someone who has absolutely no exposure to music.
First, you're probably not tone deaf. If you can differentiate between one note and a note a semitone away, you've got enough pitch to sing. If you can watch two youtube videos, think one sounds good and one sounds bad, you've got enough pitch to sing.
I spent a long time worrying about this because I struggled with pitch a lot, and then even though I could eventually (with a lot of adjustment) get my voice to make a sound at the same pitch as a piano key, it didn't sound "right" or "good". Even though the tuner told me i was right on it. Also the pitch always seemed different inside my head to listening back to it.
In the end it turns out it's all about frequencies. Your voice is making a whole bunch of them when you vocalise, it's not just a simple sine wave, and these resonate at different places, and sound different inside your head (to you) and outside (to everyone else). When I had the pitch issues, I actually mainly had placement issues. Good placement feels like cutting off the lower half of my voice, but is pretty much just you making the right frequencies and more importantly avoiding making the wrong ones. To a natural singer this probably sounds like crazy talk, but to someone who always sounded bad, this is life-changing.
So yeah, ignore the parent comment, find a good teacher who started from nothing and can teach you placement (I still recommend https://bohemianvocalstudio.com/), and practise like crazy. You'll never look back.