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Comment by shahbaby | Hacker News Reader

I've found that the most underrated problem solving tool is simply typing out my thought process.

I used to be the type who asked a lot of questions until I realized that formulating the question was often more important than getting the answer.

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It's amazing how much a technique like rubber ducking[1] helps to work through issues. The number of times I've felt like I have no idea how to solve a problem until the moment after I ask someone else is incredible. I think the act of thinking how to explain the problem to someone else really helps trigger the problem solving side of the brain. That and the number of times taking a 10 minute walk has been more productive than hours of debugging time is frankly mind boggling.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

I was stuck debugging a chip for a day until I finally decided to write to the FAE. I sit down, write my problem in the simplest possible language, list all the tricks I tried and asked for a solution. Then I'm reading my email to make sure everything is in order and voila - one last thing to try. and that step worked.

What does FAE mean in this context?

Or do you mean ‘fae’ as in fairies?

Edit: speeling

field application engineer (usually a customer facing engineer from semiconductor companies)

Ah right, I see, thanks.

I've heard this concept called the cardboard colleague - you explain the problem to a cardboard cutout representing a colleague instead of an actual person. Of course it remains a concept, I don't think anyone would go so far as make one :-)

aka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

You can use an actual colleague.

Many years ago when I was designing and programming embedded controllers (early '80s) I worked alongside, but not with, another engineer who was building devices using the same fundamental components (6520, PIA, etc.) In our tea breaks we would explain our problems to each other. Neither of us suggested any solutions to the other or responded with anything other than simple platitudes and sympathy for each other's troubles. It was remarkable how many problems had simply vanished by the end of the tea break.

>That and the number of times taking a 10 minute walk has been more productive than hours of debugging time is frankly mind boggling.

I can't keep track how many times I has an idea that got me unstuck while peeing in the bathroom.

They call it the Einstellung effect[1]. It's a recommended strategy to take time away from the problem to let your brain subconsciously work on the problem.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstellung_effect

How is this different from the Innovators Dilemma?

The hours of debugging were still a critical part of the process. It “loosened the jar lid” so to speak. (It’s not like long-distance walkers are some of the best debuggers.)

But once you’ve put in some substantial effort, taking a break and a walk (or a sleep) is often the critical last step.

Rubber duck debugging is extremely useful to unblock. I very rarely use an inanimate object, though — for me, the real help is the first or second (apparently very basic) question that the other person poses to me. That key question usually comes at what would seem the beginning of my explanation, but there lies the magic.

Rubber ducks don't ask questions.

When asking for help solving a problem, I start writing a question to ask someone, and then as I start explaining what I've tried (to try to be respectful of their time and them not have to repeat anything I've done) more and more things to try occur to me. By the time I've tried all the things that occur to me while describing the problem, I've solved the problem. That's the way it works out more often than not.

Exactly this. What is really weird, though, is that I have occasionally tried to promote this approach to people that ask my help, simply by asking them to write the request to me instead of calling. Also, getting the help request in written helps me to think the case and open issues in my own pace uninterrupted by discussion.

The weird part? I have a strong feeling that more and more often (luckily not too often yet) my request seems to be considered outright hostile and it causes significant irritation. I wonder if anyone else has noted the same or am I just getting old and grumpy...

hab ich auch weilse sonst zu viel abgeben teilen ornen und wiedergutmachen müsseb denke ich. linke menschen muss man aufs Brot haben!

Yep.

I’ve asked people to not give me dimensions for a work request over the phone because it leads to potential for transcription errors and mis-hearing...

If you type it out and send it to me, or write it down and send a photo / scan, and it’s wrong... that’s your fault.

And they seem genuinely put out by me not wanting to be responsible for a mistake.

If them being put out causes you trouble, may be best to take them, then send the follow up email requiring the confirmation.

Humans need handling.

One thing I've learned is that many coworkers really struggle with writing. They are amazing talkers - they work in sales most of the time. But they rarely write anything more than bullet points in a powerpoint deck.

It's a bit sad, but understand that people have different backgrounds and education. Perhaps their schooling, back in the 1960's / 70's, did not prioritize writing skills? It's just really odd to me because every single job I've ever applied for always said "must be able to excel in written communication", so why should the standard for my colleagues be different?

This raises an interesting point.

Maybe excels at written communication is how everyone else is doing it (bullet points, spelling and grammar mistakes) and we are the aberration.

I usually to write in short sentences instead of long paragraphs.

I find that it improves clarity. It also seems the readers respond well to that.

With that in mind, why are bullet points so bad ? they seem like a simple technique to simplify writing.

I've written a bullet point message to a client once. He was pieved because it sounded like I was enumerating his failures instead of genuinely asking questions. I find that bullet points are only good if you enumerate what you've done, or something neutral. But nothing in regards to what somebody else needs. It's really aggressive.

I've found that bullet points come off as really aggressive in communication.

That sounds like a tricky message to deliver:

1. It could easily come across as "my time is more important than yours". 2. Depending on what they are asking for and how urgently they are treating it, they might not want a lesson in solving their own problems. They just want help fixing the problem. 3. A lot of people are self-centred. Of course their problem should be your top priority and you should drop what you're doing! /s

...So yeah, I'd be surprised if it didn't get a bad reaction sometimes. Perhaps seek to promote this approach when their problem is resolved. I would imagine they would be more receptive then.

This happens all the time. This might sound cynical but it's impossible to change the attitude of some people. Any tips to avoid them without being quoted as "not a team player".

> 1. It could easily come across as "my time is more important than yours".

Well yes, if someone comes to me to ask for help, that means they weren't able to solve it by themselves, but expect me to have the skills, knowledge or experience to help them solve it. So my time working on this problem is obviously more valuable than theirs, because I'm expected to fix something they weren't able to.

So I think it's fair to ask them invest the time to provide a proper description of the problem, before I invest time to help them.

Maybe in some cases it is helpful (for both parties) if it is written down. However, in my experience, a conversation can often be very helpful as well - you can ask clarifying questions etc. It becomes more of a brainstorming together. Has helped me many times (on both sides of the conversation).

I find the instant messaging is even better(for informational conversations).

It gives you time to think, can decrease miscommunication and the psychological element of conversation(giving more clean space for the informational element) and increase the depth and details of a conversation.

Completely the opposite for me. What would be a couple of minutes of conversation is stretched out to an hour or more. And no point starting something different while waiting for the next message.

There's a name for that: rubber-duck debugging :)

What I do then is record that in my journal. Usually I never look at it again. But sometimes it's incredibly useful to be able to go back and revisit my thought process, especially in the face of a bug.

On more than one occasion I've started typing my question on stack overflow. I try to do my due diligence so I don't look like an idiot on the internet, and usually as I am anticipating responses I end up trying something that solves my problem.

Stackoverflow is the best rubber duck because the anticipation of that fear is quite real. And I know that on many occasions I will end up submitting that question

This. I've gotten a new appreciation for Stackoverflow in the past year or so.

Half of the drafts I write do not end up as published questions, just because the writing process itself is often helpful in figuring out what ever problem I have with my code.

code?

Sometimes I wonder how big a tragedy it is that many well-written questions are simply dismissed because the author found his solution in the process. I'm sure many of those questions are high quality and would get edits, upvotes and answers had the author just pressed the submit button.

Actually it's acceptable to answer your own question, as long as it's a useful contribution, so it might be worth it to just post the question after all.

You can’t answer the question until it exits!

I have this experience. If I am struggling with something and can’t find an answer on the web I will write down a stack overflow/cross validated/math question. More often than not simply formulating the question well will help resolve the problem. If I still can’t figure it out I post and come back in an hour. Again, even if no one answered rereading the question after making some space often helps answer the question to myself.

Yes! I've lost count of the number of times I've started a ticket on GitHub and through the process of typing it all out solved my own problem without ever submitting the ticket.

Yep I have been doing the same too, writting out and drawing out things to get it out of my head and onto paper seems to help quite a bit.

The universe has all the answers, what matters is the questions you ask

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