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100% agree, it's not the physical age so much as it's the perception of age (and all the framing/baggage that comes with it).

Note: this also applies to personality - if you give off a "grumpy old person" vibe, or are far off the mark culture-wise, you're gonna have a rough time.

I'm over 50, and this is the killer. Not only for others, but also to avoid personally.

It's very, very easy to get into a "grumpy old fart" mindset, where anything new or changing is dismissed out of hand. I've had to fight hard to stop this from happening, and it's still my first response to anything new.

Having said that, there are sometimes good reasons for dismissing something new. But only after taking the time to understand it and why everything else thinks this is cool.

If I'm interviewing a 50+ for a job, I want to see evidence that they haven't fallen into Grumpy Old Fart syndrome.

The converse is also true - if I'm interviewing someone younger, I want to see evidence that they're not caught up in tech fads. Too many times I've seen good tech thrown away because it's not in the hip-and-happening language/framework/platform/etc. And there's a lot to learn from the mistakes of the past ;) And having some idiot kid explain to me why Mongo is soo awesome and SQL is obsolete gets tiring fast [0].

But to be honest, I'd be worried if I had to interview for a role. It'd be a sign that my network wasn't where I'd like it to be. Keeping that up to date is as valuable as keeping the tech skills sharp.

[0] example at random cough

>Having said that, there are sometimes good reasons for dismissing something new. But only after taking the time to understand it and why everything else thinks this is cool.

Yes, there's a fine line between applying experience to understand and explain why something has been tried 10 times before in the industry and the 11th time is not going to be a charm--and, as you say, routinely dismissing anything that even peripherally echoes something that didn't work last time even though a lot of things are different now.

> And having some idiot kid explain to me why Mongo is soo awesome and SQL is obsolete gets tiring fast.

Just an observation. This statement might fail the "Grumpy Old Fart syndrome" test.

The kid's _probably_ not an idiot and it might be a good time to educate the lad with real life experience and references to data to support your experience.

mongo is good if you don't use it for much and i'll refer to any of aphyr's analyses. i imagine whippersnappers don't read these. i personally won't touch a database which hasn't been in aphyr's private db hell. only a few gray hair, too.

To be honest, I can live with people being keen on Mongo. I kinda get the enthusiasm for it - schemas are a pain in the neck.

It's the "SQL is obsolete" part, coming from someone who never bothered to learn it, that gets me every time.

Offering my two cents as an idiot kid working with a posse of late career SQL DBA's:

SQL isn't obsolete, but it's awfully tiring to deal with folks who treat it as the end-all be-all of data tech. The project I'm working on right now has a few dozen stored procedures stapled on to a Hadoop cluster because none of the industry veterans trust this new-fangled "Spark" technology. When the quarterly schema changes come around, the entire environment has to be redone so as to accommodate the hard-coded SSIS ingestion pipeline.

> kid ... tech fads

The two times I was called a fad-chaser (literally) was adopting Scala in 2012 and React.js in 2013. AFAICT, that's the label boomers use to dismiss the people who are making progress. Getting the company to use Reactjs in particular drove a huge increase in quality, velocity, and recruiting.

I have been fixing bugs in our React front end. Its a bloated mess. It may make writing code faster, but tracking down bugs afterwards seems to be far more complex.

I'm near the age group being discussed here... I think about how variable people from high school can look when they hit you up on the social networks. The "presenting" age range of people from my graduating class feels spread across about 30 years. Some people look 30s-ish, and some people have definitely lived a hard life (all sympathies for people who haven't had a kind journey).

Yep, I remember a guy at our ten year reunion, we were only twenty-eight mind you. He went from jock to George Costanza look-a-like in that short time!

One of my friends was also completely bald by 27. I'm 46 now and these past few years I've been growing a tiny bald spot at the back of my head. It's weird how big those differences are, and therefore even weirder how much we are judged by them.

Yes, though it wasn't just baldness. He had the glasses and clothes to match too.

Probably hard to tease apart, but I wonder if the "dying your hair" part matters as much as the "dressing more hip" part. Someone that looks like they're dressing well and have a sense of style is likely to innately have a better first impression than if you look like you're an extra in a sitcom. It'll help you stick out in people's minds, for better or worse, and shows at least some level of caring about the position.

I'm a younger guy, but I know I try to pick my outfit carefully when going for an interview. I don't have a totally different interview wardrobe or anything, but I pay a little more attention to matching colors and generally looking more put-together.

You may not even need to get your kids to dress you - just find a friend your age who cares about fashion some to help. Even if you think you dress well, having someone else check you over or make small suggestions can help.

Interview clothing is a bit controversial. Not that I've had a lot of interviews over the years, but I've always tended to overdress a bit. Maybe I didn't need to, but it seems respectful. On the other hand, I've heard people who feel strongly that it someone shows up in a tie for a dev job that's a hard "nope."

I think a lot of it is style more than the specific clothes. If you're wearing a tie that you didn't tie well, and doesn't match your outfit, that's going to look bad on you literally and figuratively. A lot of people "overdress" but still don't dress well. I'm not expecting you to show up in a suit, but if you decide on your own to wear a suit to the interview, it better be a clean suit you look good in.

I once had an interview set up by a "high touch" recruiter who insisted that I "suit up". I showed up at an un-airconditioned office to meet the VP wearing ratty cutoff shorts.

I think the correct path here has not really changed in the past 20+ years: find out how they dress for a typical work day and then go one step more dressy. So if it's a jeans and t-shirt shop, go khakis and collared shirt; if it's business casual a jacket and tie is fine.

It's not so much about what you are wearing as it is about "fitting in with our culture". At least this is a bias that you can usually mitigate (if you want to)

I was told the same thing as a consultant on Wall St. back in the 80s: Dress 1 level 'better' then the employees. I was told it makes the client feel like they are getting value for the money....

My own policy is to ask the person who arranged the interview what I should wear. In the absence of specific requirements, I'll dress reasonably nicely (long sleeve collared shirt, etc, no tie -- a level or so up from what I normally wear to work). I'll wear a suit and tie if and only if I'm specifically asked to.

(That's for in-person interviews. Remember those?)

>It's not so much about what you are wearing as it is about "fitting in with our culture".

Absolutely. Fairly or not, if you show up at a shorts and T-shirts company dressed in a suit, there will definitely be people who will dismiss you for that reason--especially if your experience or age might make them a bit suspicious in the first place. Personally, I probably wouldn't dress down below business casual unless someone specifically told me to. (And that would be a bit of a red flag if that were seen as such a big deal.)

My interview performance actually got better once I stopped overdressing. I got more offers wearing a grey hoodie and jeans. And this was at big tech (not just startups).

I've only worn a suit once for a job interview, for one of my first, because the company sounded like they cared about that (I even called them to verify!), and the company sounded interesting enough to make the sacrifice. But at the interview I was terribly overdressed, and sat opposite two typical techies in scruffy shirts and dingy sweaters.

I really don't see the point of suit and tie. Wear a nice button-down shirt. Then you're always good.

I'm a young guy who likes Cardigan sweaters. This won't bode well for me later.

Eh, I mean, fit kinda matters more than the specific garments anyway. There's an older man at my office who dresses in a style that looks like a Victorian English professor - hats, tweed and small glasses. It's totally a look that is "older" but he puts it together well and looks good in it.

Hoodies are also comfy.

Cardigans are somewhat fashion-forward and "cool". I have a couple that get compliments from people in streetwear stores (Undercover and John Elliott for any of you fashion nerds).

I read it as a suggestion in the middle: you don't have to dress over, but you shouldn't dress "under".

Some people will benefit from rising to the middle.

That said, one of the most influential people I know at a FAANG dresses like a mechanic. But he already has the juice.

I think that's somewhat what I mean. It's less about having any particular style as much as having A style. I know plenty of folks whose style is "weird" or punk or overly-formal or other looks that aren't normal "business attire" and do fine for themselves, but if you're just wearing whatever you grab out of the closet that's worn and ill-fitting, it's not doing you any favors.

With the corollary advice being:

a grey beard will protect you from accepting positions where looks might be more important than skills.

No slight against your friends, if they needed the money they did what they had to do. But if one doesn't, there is nothing wrong with letting your beard guide you: somewhere out there is a lisp codebase just waiting for your love and attention.

> a grey beard will protect you from accepting positions where looks might be more important than skills.

OTOH if someone thinks you're a wizard because you have a grey beard, that's also looks above skills.

Haha, but flaunting a gray beard is just as superficial as dying your hair. Personal appearance is a primary signal, there's no way around it. Personally, I'd judge a gray beard more positively than a hipster get-up. Probably because my first mentor in the field, Denny, looked like Santa Claus, so I'll always have a soft spot there.

Anyone can dress hipster (some more convincingly than others), but not everyone can grow a beard.

The age bias is real. I am glad remote work is being embraced by many companies, it will help fight against age bias.

How so ? You still need to pass interviews.

Age bias doesn't only present itself at the interview stage, it presents in all aspects of work.

When companies no longer own physical offices, interviews will be remote and one can use software filters or dye hair to look younger and avoid age bias. I am not being sarcastic, i genuinely fear of getting rejected due to age.

I feel the same way. The new wave of remote work and, hopefully, the normalization of remote will mitigate against the bad effects of ageism. People seem to care less about working with a person older than them (and more about that person's skill level and merit) if they are not in the same office with them. Maybe that's because a lot of younger workers have bought into the idealization of the "young, hip, uber cool SV office" with skateboards, pizza, and ping pong and so if the older worker isn't in their office there's no "danger" of spoiling that vibe. But I'm only guessing here.

Except it will hurt chronoligcally old people who have a much younger age-attitude. I feel I act more youthful than a lot of my (much) younger co-workers because I'm established, curious and not focused on the rat-race as much as them. My hobbies are youth-oriented and my kids continually expose me to magical things. How do I promote this in a world that becomes even more focused on instagram presentation vs. reality?

I understand, but think about in next 10 years when all the hairs turn grey.

Zoom deepfake?

There's a niche there for someone with the right skills....

IME, it's much worse.

The compressed interview process means that after the usual preambles, you get <30 minutes to convince a zoom conference of 2-3 engineers that they want to work with you. It leaves no time for you to overcome prejudice and preconceptions.

Funny to read this today – last night I started reading the book Corporate Confidential[0], which gives exactly the same advice; it's not bad to be old, but it's bad to be perceived as old.

The book recommends what your friend did – go shopping for younger clothes (the book author recommends hiring a stylist every five years) and making sure you don't have grey hair.

0 - http://www.librarything.com/work/354311

Doesn't bode well for bald/balding people :-(

Sooooo many people shave their heads nowadays, balding or otherwise.

Yeah, I think that's why so many choose to go Bezos Bald™. Hides the makes-you-look-old balding hairline and _also_ mirrors the look of so many executives.

As a white male whose gone genetically bald at 25, I'm pretty sure I've ended up being a "diversity" hire multiple times.

And NO, I do not have plans to pay for products or scams to "get my hair back". Oddly, since flat out shaving my head I've gotten much more respect and positive looks from women compared to when I was still "in denial". The world is indeed a weird place.

I never thought about what i wore to interviews till a coworker who was a decade younger than me who was a part of my interview at the company said she voted no on hiring me because of my “douchebag” interview outfit. For reference my fashion sense is almost too fat for j crew.

> For reference my fashion sense is almost too fat for j crew.

I don't get this reference. Can you explain it or show an example?

There was a time where a popped collar was a sign that you were a problematic person. Probably still is in a certain context. I think people are going to do some pattern matching with your clothing and people they've met/seen in the past. It's just a bit of human nature.

Maybe everyone should dress like Mr. Rogers or something.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/352266002103008546/

And I mostly shop at j crew factory and tend to go for floral prints. But, it’s crazy to me that this stuff matters, even though it clearly does

Huh. I don't think any of the guys on there look like "douchebags" because of their outfits.

Perception is confusing

Is this co-worker a good person in general or was that just one case of their noxious personality?

Did she proudly admit her terrible judgement to her peers in hiring review and meeting, or confide in your later that she tried to sabotage you? Did she still interview?

Is there a beard dye as well? (I can't believe I'm actually asking this)

Should just be able to use the same dye you use on your hair. You just have to be extra careful if you have to bleach first. You don't want that stuff getting near your eyes or in your mouth.

Sure man, you can dye anything. Just for Men mustache and beard.

Grey beards are cool as hell, just make sure it's clean and well trim.

Good luck to you

Yes! I use "Just for men" beard coloring.

They are 33 this year, rapidly approaching old age themselves.

Maybe twenty years ago they introduced a new product line that I thought was clever. The idea is you dye your hair with an inefficient dye, so after one dye job you still have a lot of grey left. You keep applying it over and over until the grey is gone, so you don’t just show up full silver one day and jet black the next. You just age backward for weeks.

That was "Grecian Formula." They don't make it anymore because it colored you hair with lead! It looked like a clear liquid, but the lead in the lead acetate it contained would bind with your hair, gradually darkening it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grecian_Formula

Slightly related, are there any realistic-looking false beards? Asking for a friend.

What should I do if not much hair is left to dye? :)

Seriously, thanks for the anecdotes. I could imagine companies are a bit afraid of a grumpy old geezer having a bad influence on the company's work atmosphere. This may be less of a concern if they feel the person is trying to keep up with the younger people also for non-work related stuff.

Tattoos?

Sounds a bit counter-intuitive, but i think visible tattoos (arms, neck) have worked in my favor as i got older, exactly because they help in the perception that i am younger or "hipper" than i actually am. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to go out and get one if they weren't interested in it anyways, but i think in the tech industry it's no hindrance to getting work as a line manager or IC.

Attitudes towards tattoos have changed a lot, perhaps especially in tech. Go back a while and visible tattoos (and, indeed, probably tattoos at all) were a pretty clear indicator that you weren't a "white collar" worker or destined to be one at least in the US.

Deliberately shave it? My plan is to keep cutting my hair shorter and shorter as my hairline recedes... My hope is that by the time there's not much hair left there's also not much length left...

Yea, I don't think there's nearly as much of a stigma against being bald/short cut hair any more. If anything, I know plenty of younger folks who keep their hair pretty short these days.

People I work with in tech have, on average, much shorter hair than was the case if you go back a few decades. I don't even have especially long hair; get it cut a few times a year in normal times. And while I have some co-workers with very long hair, mine is almost certainly longer than average. Look at photos from a few decades ago and they're clearly recognizable as from another time in no small part because of the amount of hair.

At least a couple of forty-something dads on my street have broken out the electric razors in the last fortnight. With barber shops closed, this is a fine time to try out the look.

I started losing hair like crazy a while ago, I'm 42 but there are other factors such as prolonged stress.

Supplementing Biotin worked well for me, and I've talked to others with similar experiences.

I think part of the problem is that with experience comes integrity, and integrity is the last thing most employers want to deal with.

Shave, especially if it goes with your face.

Been there, done that. But I like my hair and losing it early is a symptom of deeper issues.

a beanie or hat with popular company logo?

Dress for the job you want still applies. Just don't over-do it or miss the mark so it looks like you're trying too hard but out of the loop.

It also helps (based on my own anecdotal experience) to be trim -- neither overweight nor obese.

So young, fit - should probably have perfect teeth and wear contacts?

you're right of course, just depresing that we've essentially not made much progress in the past 50 years... especially since the people who kicked off this whole thing were some of the least presentable first-impression guys you could ever find (see early photos and descriptions of jobs, gates, etc.)

I'm 57. I'm just observing the truth when I see people my age go for months without work.

Sounds a lot like rules 1 and 2:

1. Be attractive.

2. Don't be unattractive.

Had this happen as well. My ex, who had quite a sense of style, dressed me like Yahoo Serious or something for a FB interview. Felt like a complete fraud, but they were clearly entranced by it. (Not enough to offer me a livable wage in the BA, though.)

People are talking about clothes and hair, don't forget teeth. Get them whitened. I wasn't looking for a job but I did it because being 50+, coffee drinker, you can tell a difference. And since I did it I started noticing it in other people. A practical necessity if you're a smoker as well, and don't smell like smoke. Really, have a non-smoker smell you to check.

I have an autoimmune disease. Shaving means risking bloody sores that will never completely heal. I've starting shaving before interviews.

Can you not go for the short stubble look? Still looks neat if done right, less dangerous for you.

That's how I currently wear it. I have a middle eastern complexion, and it's too 'intimidating'.

After the initial preamble with HR and the hiring manager, and a technical test, most interviews I have had recently involved an extremely brief zoom meeting with several engineers at once, where they each have ~15-20 minutes to interview you and make a decision. So, they don't have much alternative to snap judgements and ultimately hiring people more like their social peers.

That could explain it. I have no problem finding work, but I look young for my age. Wild hair, no grey except in my beard, and if I shave, I could easily be 15 years younger.

It's weird that employers are so superficial. But maybe they're looking for someone flexible and energetic, and if you look too old, and give off "old man" vibes, they fear you may lack that energy.

Great advice. Practical.

works with women too!