Why not?
Multiplication is a composition of addition, and addition is a composition of the successor function. The successor function is not a composition of anything, but you can define it in terms of set theory if you don't want to simply accept it as a primitive. But sets are functions too.
No, I meant what I said. The fact that iteration is a kind of composition is true, but it's a tangent from the point I was trying to make, which is that infix notation is a Really Bad Idea. No one in their right mind would use it if they were not indoctrinated into it.
> "the successor function is not a composition of anything" is definitely false
That's news to me. I genuinely thought that successor could legitimately be considered a primitive. What is successor a composition of?
> the point I was trying to make, which is that infix notation is a Really Bad Idea
Not to be snarky, but, reading these two (from your two thread-successive posts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23312725 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23314776) in succession, I still can't see anything about the first one that indicates the point that infix notation is a bad idea. Not that I'm disagreeing with the point, just that I can't find it in the first post. Could you clarify the connection?
> What is successor a composition of?
It's a composition of, for example, itself and the identity function, like everything else; or you could view it as a composition (-1) . (+2). Those kind of silly solutions are why I thought you meant 'iteration'.
Iterative solutions are easy if you don't restrict yourself to natural numbers—for example, (+1) is (+(1/2)) composed with itself—but that's clearly not what you meant. (As soon as you leave the natural numbers, even the idea that addition is iterated successor becomes false.)
If you do so restrict yourself, then it becomes true that the successor is not a non-trivial iterate. (I just skated the edge of claiming the opposite in my post, but avoided error by not specifying what domain I meant. That's just luck, though; I meant a particular thing, and I was wrong. To prove it, supposing you start your natural numbers at 0 and that f is a function such that f^{\circ k} is the successor function for some k > 1, then note that f is injective (because a composition power is). If f(0) = 0, then succ(0) = f(f(0)) = f(0) = 0, which is a contradiction. Put n = f(0) and note that f^{\circ n k}(0) = succ^n(0) = n, but n k > 1.)
By the way, you quoted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23314776):
> > you meant the more specific term
Just to be clear, what I said (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23314530) was "I think you meant the more specific term". And I was wrong, but I intentionally didn't just assume I knew you what you meant!
I didn't make a very good argument for it. I really intended that to be more of a throwaway rant than a serious critique. But since you ask...
There are two problems with infix:
1. It's hard to parse. It requires precedence rules which are not apparent in the notation. In actual practice, the precedence rules vary from context to context and this causes real problems. It's an unnecessary cognitive burden that pays very little in the way of dividends (a few less pen strokes or key strokes).
2. It obscures the fact that infix operators are just syntactic sugar for function applications. It leads people to think that there is something fundamentally different about a+b that distinguishes it from sum(a,b) and this in turn leads to a ton of confusion.
> that's clearly not what you meant
Indeed not. I meant the successor operator as defined in the Peano axioms.
> you quoted
Yeah, sorry about that. When I first replied, I thought you were the same person who posted the grandparent comment. My first draft response turned out to be completely inappropriate when I realized you were a different person, but some of my initial mindset apparently leaked into the revised comment. My apologies.
Thus I thought your point was that, since multiplication is a function, it’s a form of function composition. But that wouldn’t follow, for the reasons I said.
As for multiplication being “composed” addition, addition being “composed” succession, etc.: The multiplication function (at least of integer arguments) is composed of addition. Function composition is a function that returns a composition of two other functions. The way you’re using the term blurs the distinction between the thing that is composed and the thing that does the composing.
Function composition is a specific operation that takes two functions, f and g, and returns the function f∘g defined by the behavior (f∘g)(x) = f(g(x)). The function which does function composition is not itself a composed function, and the act of multiplication is the act of a composed function, but not an act of function composition.
Yes, that is intentional. Both of these things are functions. Even numbers are functions, they just happen to be functions of zero arguments, or functions that ignore their arguments, or functions whose value is constant regardless of what the argument(s) is(are). It's all the same thing. That is the whole point.
Numbers and addition and multiplication happen to be particularly important functions, but they are not structurally different from any other functions. Giving them special notation, especially when you are first introduced to them, obscures this fact. This kind of mental damage is very hard to recover from in later life. I believe it's one of the reasons so many people think they hate math. Math can be beautiful and elegant, but the standard notation used for school-book arithmetic is arbitrary and perverse, a bizarre accident of history with no actual merit.
IMHO of course.
[UPDATE:]
> Function composition is a specific operation that takes two functions, f and g, and returns the function f∘g defined by the behavior (f∘g)(x) = f(g(x)).
Function composition is a function, no different from any other function. There is no more reason to use infix notation for it than there is for any other function. In fact, if you drop the infix notation it immediately becomes obvious how ubiquitous and non-special function composition actually is:
compose(f,g)(x) = compose(f)(g)(x) = f(g(x))
And no matter what, there's still a difference between composing a with b, and composing b with itself a times, which is what I mean by the distinction between composition and iteration (sort of like the distinction between a brick and a brick wall).
At this point I feel we're going around in circles, so I'll bow out.
But they are not mutually exclusive. That's the whole point.