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Comment by sdfx | Hacker News Reader

A trend that started already in a lot of companies a couple of years ago and will only be accelerated by Covid. Many places do overbook desks in offices right now and have flex-tables without fixed assigned workers. Seems fair to think about compensating employees for the costs that are being pushed to their side.

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As a non-remote employee, I had to find housing near my office. Now, as a remote employee, my only real requirements are a power source and internet connection. Sure, I have to live somewhere, but that need isn’t a result of my employment. It seems that non-remote employees have more specific and expensive housing requirements and costs.

If you use that new-found freedom to pick an area with a lower cost of living though, you're going to get your salary cut.

How does that work?

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/facebook-employees-may-fac...

Another perspective is that if you live somewhere remotely, employers will pay for your increase in cost of living if you move to a more expensive place.

Or just hire people from low cost of living areas.

Depending on the location, they could just let you go. Imagine moving from Idaho to NYC. Drastic increase in cost. If an employer needs to compensate for that, I'm pretty sure theyll think long and hard whether its worth it.

Idk about you but I know which lower cost of living I'd prefer to move to, and my break-even salary cut is 25%. I think I can negotiate it to 15-20% which would effectively be a raise.

My salary is how much money I'm willing to take to work for the company. If I can live somewhere cheaper, that number is lower.

Since I've been working at home, and so has my partner, we have had a lot more issues in the apartment. We're both on the phone all day, so there's very little chance of having a quiet space in the apartment during the week. We're also forced to split the work-related resources, like we have to organize an equitable time-share on the desk which is better for working, vs the kitchen table which is not as comfortable.

If work from home becomes the norm long term, I can imagine we would need to think about a larger apartment for this reason.

aren't you saving a good amount of money too though. I don't know if you and your partner drive to work, but I'm saving about $120/month just on gas, and I'd probably end up saving another $100-200/month on vehicle depreciation and insurance if this went on indefinitely. an extra $300/month makes a big difference in the rental market where I live.

I normally commute by bike so this isn't a factor for me. I'm also using more electricity, and I'm drinking the coffee I bought rather than the office coffee.

ah okay, so you don't save anything on the commute. I'm happy to pay for my own coffee (I get much nicer beans than we have at the office), but I have noticed that my utilities bill is no lower than it was mid-winter.

I agree that it delves into the realm of triviality that’s not worth the costs of developing the policy and enforcing it.

I chose my employer based on where I want to live. The commute is stil about 40 minutes of driving each way buts its manageable. If I chose my employer to be in downtown Atlanta, or thereabouts, I would need to live in an area with more expensive house, less space, and crappy schools... Or drive 1.5 hours. Unless they'd double my salary, the 1.5 hour commute is a deal breaker.

Microsoft just announced 1500 jobs in downtown Atlanta, to be near Georgia tech and the tech hub. Not sure if they realize that developers who have working experience, likely now have kids now and arent going to settle for C level schools. Their location isn't even supported by mass transit that well (bus, but no train. They likely payed a premium for the space since it's "hip".

I've found it ironic that there's even such thing a tech hub, since we are the ones who create and push for remote work.

True. When my team was just starting out, we couldn't find a place where we could sit together, because company policy was that they only needed 0.7 desk per employee. Many teams did have their own space, so we had nothing.

I don't understand what costs are pushed on me when I WFH. I already need a place to live and an internet connection. What else is there?

Many people, if they know they are going to be WFH regularly, will want larger homes so that they can have a dedicated office space instead of having to set up a desk in their bedroom. This is especially true if you live with someone who also WFH and you can’t really work from the same room due to constant conference calls. Instead of a 1BR apartment, you might want a 2BR + a study, which obviously costs more.

Even if you don’t live with someone, it helps a lot to have your work space separate from your living space. I believe there are studies about this that say it makes both better for your sleep and for your work productivity if your sleep space and work space are not the same space.

Some people will also need beefier internet plans than they normally needed, so they can support constant video conferencing.

Not to mention increased use of other utilities: electricity, water, heating/cooling.

I.e. increased usage of electricity, water, gas, heating, you drink your own coffee, eat your own fruits/yogurts etc.

One can work from the couch or living room table in a pinch, but if you need privacy, or the contract mandates a certain level of confidentiality (like other people not being able to see the screen, or having to lock paperwork away) you will want to invest in a separate room for work.

Also, at least in Germany, not sure about Switzerland, you can only write off the rent, taxes-wise, for a separate office room with a door. You can't write off a desk in a room used for other purposes or a space in a hallway.

Not to mention if you have roommates or a spouse and kids.

What cost? If anything the employee now saves time and money from the commute alone.

I'd guess there are plenty of people in high-rent areas who'd need larger and more expensive living quarters to work from home long-term.

If they previously chose those areas for convenient location in regards their work, now they're free to move anywhere they'd like.

“Free”? Do you have absolutely no attachments to where you live? People have social support networks - friends, families, places that they go to, classes they’re taking. Children who go to schools and have friends there and go to parks for play dates and birthdays.

Those are just one or two of the social costs. How much does it cost in real money to relocate a family of 3 or 4?

People who live close to work in an expensive area have traded money for time. Higher salary; shorter commute. They may not have the resources to move.

IMO, that’s a strange definition of free.

Those social attachments are not the responsibility of the employer.

Actually, yes. I have no attachments to where I live. I am personally free to go live anywhere I want in the country. I don't really have friends, don't have children, I don't want to live near my family, and I'm single.

"How much does it cost in real money to relocate a family of 3 or 4?"

Versus living in the aforementioned very expensive area? Seems like it would probably save money to move somewhere more affordable.

Creating an office at home? For a lot of people, making your home a viable working space is very expensive. It may even require the worker to purchase a home or apartment with an extra room.

Imagine if you will: a condo building that's designed as a mixed residential/commercial space, where there are apartment units, and office units that are free-to-use for anyone with an apartment there. And the office units are pre-furnished.

Now you're essentially paying for a co-working space (whether you use it or not or whether there's always a space available) through some combination of higher unit prices and condo fees.

Wouldn't it make more sense for those who need/want a work area outside their apartment to get a co-working space?

The idea here isn't that you want a work area outside your apartment. The idea is that you'd ideally want an extra room in your apartment to serve as a home office, but you are willing to time-share it with other people to make it cheaper than the cost of an actual additional room for your exclusive use. But you still get to wander over there in your house slippers, just like a dorm kitchen.

Sounds great, but the cost of that office square footage is going to be reflected in the price of the residential units.

If you're creating a real dedicated space then that can be justified. If it's to the point where you have to buy a new house/apartment with an extra room then I'd rather just have a real office space instead, especially as an employer.

My workspace cost me money to furnish, and it permanently takes up part of my house. I don't personally mind as software development is a large part of my hobbies as well so I'd have that dedicated space irrespective of my job, but for a lot of people the need for a dedicated work space is tied to their job, and not something they'd otherwise need.

Whether or not it's a net saving vs. transport costs really depends on where you happen to live.

Are people really creating dedicated spaces? What happened to all those people who were in coworking spaces and cafes where they really had nothing more than a desk and a chair?

I think the developer perspective can cloud the fact that the overwhelming majority just have a laptop and a place to put it for their "workspace".

I think people quickly will realise that if they're working at spaces like that full time in front of a laptop they'll soon be dealing with neck strain, back pain and all kinds of issues. I've worked with "just a laptop and a place to put it" and it can work for a while, but it's an awful full time replacement.

There's little that is special about software development from that point of view.

"All those people" who are in cafes really are a tiny little fraction of workers, and most co-working spaces I've been to have a wide variety of proper office environments because unsurprisingly a lot of people need a proper environment to get work done.

Everyone whose house I've seen who works from home more than every now and again has had a dedicated space.

That not true for everyone. I live a 1.6 mile walk/run to work so my commute is 35 min a day and free.

A lot of people outside of urban centers have spare space and the money/time cost of their usual commute adds up. But, absolutely, there are many people in cities who have low commuting costs and their apartment is basically somewhere to sleep. I can't imagine working remote like that is sustainable long-term. Many will have to move into a larger place or rent a co-working space.

That's 35min a day you don't have to spend. That's 2.5 hours a week.

No, that's 35 minutes of physical activity they have to make up some other way.

They're free to spend that time doing whatever they want instead of being forced to travel to a location. That's the freedom they gain.

Of course they can continue to spend that time doing the exact same walk if they want, no "make up some other way" necessary.

Highspeed broadband internet, personal devices that may be used for work including phone line/data, webcam etc.

it’s called hoteling and has been around for at least a decade if not 2, not just a couple of years ago.

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