Writing and the narrative fallacy (2018)
jacklimpert.com
jacklimpert.com
> Then asked to describe their lives, what is interesting is how few people said "mess". It's probably the best answer, I don't mean that in a bad way. "Mess" can be liberating, "mess" can be empowering, "mess" can be a way of drawing upon multiple strengths. But what people wanted to say was, "My life is a journey." 51% wanted to turn his or her life into a story. 11% said, "My life is a battle." Again, that is a kind of story. 8% said, "My life is a novel." 5% said, "My life is a play."
In a similar vein, I recommend "The danger of a single story" by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie (https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_dange...). For example, if we hear that "Sam is poor" we create a whole image based on one trait (which does even need to be a defining trait!) and lose the complexity of a human being and their life. (Side note: if we only know that "Max supports Trump", and the whole person becomes only a Trump supporter; it is very different from knowing Max in detail, when it is only one of his/her traits.)
Yes, for most people stories are the easiest way to learn something. However, but their own nature they are intentionally oversimplified. So they are also the easiest way to fool others, intentionally or not.
However, I'd like to push back gently on the idea that we should never use narratives.
It is true that _traditional story structures_ don't necessarily reflect the real structure of historical experience/occurence, but they _can_ fit, too. It really depends on the occurence. And more importantly, stories can be infinitely granular and complex (just read _War and Peace_ or _In Search of Lost Time_, for example), complex and granular enough to capture actual historical experience without distortion.
As for people not describing their lives as a mess, that's because a mess has no structure - whereas a journey or a battle has a structure; life does not necessarily have structure, sure, but those people who choose to describe their lives in structured ways do so because they are _giving_ it structure. If someone's life is structured (by them) as a pursuit of some goal or state, where everything that happens either helps that, hinders that, or acts as a side-quest, then they may well describe it as a journey. A fractally complex journey, but a journey nonetheless.
These are excellent well-contrasting examples, well put.
> A fractally complex journey, but a journey nonetheless.
Do you write frequently? This is one of my favorite comments on HN in terms of style and etiquette.
Also yes, I thought ISoLT and W&P contrasted nicely.
That means that your listener will imperfectly understand reality. That is inevitable.
Build up that sense for what works and what doesn’t by trying and seeing (ideally in a supportive environment - a certain sort of friendship is great for this actually, no need for an improv class)
For more on why, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-un...
https://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/14...
Especially in these days--where there's a pitched ideological/political battle raging, coupled with an assault on "knowing"--that seems to be the larger driving force.
Why are you interested in minimizing this or finding a media-based conspiracy to overreport?
Occam's Razor may suggest something, but the actual truth of the matter remains unknown.
> Why are you interested in minimizing this or finding a media-based conspiracy to overreport?
An even better question is: why/how has your mind chosen to frame his words in a specific manner that is not actually contained within what he wrote, as well as assume (without evidence) a specific intent/motivation? Was this purely conscious and deliberate, or was it more instinctual?
https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-po...
I'm generally interested in the subculture
> used to refer to a situation in which there is a choice between two different plans of action, but both together are not possible
The actual state of affairs is that both are occurring.
One example is this recently popular story on Reddit:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4aydjg/somehow-this-wild-...
> A bonkers hoax video about Bill Gates has been making the rounds on social media — and it’s setting the anti-vaxx conspiracy world on fire.
> The video claims to show Gates briefing the CIA in 2005 about a vaccine to immunize religious fanatics. The video, which is obviously faked, is getting gobbled up by online conspiracy theorists who’ve latched onto the Microsoft co-founder as the mastermind behind the coronavirus pandemic.
A lovely narrative, but if one actually bothered to read the article with critical thinking skills engaged (as would be the case if the article was written by conspiracy theorists, rather than written about conspiracy theorists), it would be obvious that the author didn't even make an attempt to provide any evidence that substantiates the claim that this story is "setting the anti-vaxx conspiracy world on fire".
This is very typically the case with articles about conspiracy theorists, which insinuate (usually without saying explicitly) that all(!) conspiracy theorists believe <x>, and the "evidence" for these claims, if any is provided at all, is almost without exception a simplistic narrative, or another article of the exact same form.
An example of just such an article was even provided as evidence to answer a question in this very HN thread! [1]
If one was to actually do the most basic of fact checking on such articles (the vice.com one above for example), they would frequently encounter posts like this one[2] where the author, rather than "gobbling up the obviously faked video", instead clearly points out the obvious propaganda techniques used by the MSM.
You'd think someone would eventually catch on and say something about this obviously recurring technique in news reporting, but such exposes would occur you know where...in a conspiracy theory community, and you know [3] what they say about conspiracy theorists!
[1] https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/11/five-telecom-towers-torched-po...
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/gpj202/bill_gat...
You can’t be theoretical in conspiracies. You can either prove it (or at least know facts others don’t) or you are crazy.
A similar heuristic is someone who gets robbed at gunpoint by a black person, and then claims that all black people are violent. It's interesting how society seemed to be able to not only get over that popular form of stereotype (which is indeed not identical, but is also similar), but now largely abhors it, yet the very idea that not all "conspiracy theories/theorists" are identically flawed is considered (with no supporting evidence whatsoever) impossible.
> You can’t be theoretical in conspiracies. You can either prove it (or at least know facts others don’t) or you are crazy.
Is this a theory/opinion, or a fact? If it's a fact, can you provide some supporting evidence &/or reasoning?
I mean, I can certainly agree that this very much seems to be all that most people are currently capable of, but to say that humans are not capable of it at all, but they are capable of conceptualizing theories in virtually all other fields, seems rather odd.
Can you think of any reasons why people's conceptualization of conspiracy theories/theorists is so unlike virtually every other idea? Why is it that otherwise logical people are unable to exercise logic when the topic arises, but instead revert to almost purely heuristic reasoning, often accompanied by an inability to realize that is what they're doing? Surely there must be some underlying cause behind this mysterious anomaly, no?
that's (again) the fundamental attribution error, another type of bias where we attribute to people outcomes that are more attributable to situations.
besides, most prevalent among the covid narratives is the fear and panic of the unknown--the complexity and randomness (of nature) as you put it--so quite the opposite of what you narrate.
the simple narrative is that covid is caused by a respiratory virus, and while there's lots to learn about viruses overall, we know plenty enough about them not to be in a panic over it, and to develop reasonable policies entirely from the knowledge we have. but that's too simple for our overwhelming fear of the unknown, untamped by reason, and many of us seek other, often more complicated narratives to assuage our anxiety.
The truth being complexity and randomness is just another part of the narrative.
As well as the simplistic counter-narratives deployed to combat those narratives:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295618
This isn't a battle of facts vs facts as most people believe, but rather a battle of memes vs memes, where both sides are typically not telling the whole truth, but usually for different reasons. It's fascinating to observe the battle (and forum commentary on the battle) from an abstract perspective, if you can manage it, but not many people seem to even know such a perspective even exists, and it certainly isn't something we're taught in school or at home, at least "in The West".
People who adhere to time and conplexity don't get a free pass on the fundamentals. The project will spring leaks if you get the story wrong. Information will slip out, people will get the wrong idea and go in opposite directions.
You can blame those errors on randomness, but really you just let the basic elements fail by skipping good reasoning.
Taleb's point about unconnected thoughts making an oversimplified story really misses the complexity in story and the massive filtering efforts that go into making good stories. He's pandering at best with these ideas.
- improvises its way through a continuous set
- never stops
- swaps out players intermittently
- improvises off of each other based upon events
rather than being an orchestra operating off of some refined composition handed down from Apollo on mount Olympus.
When I asked my boss (who is co-founder of the company, so has all the historic context) how the company culture got to be in the good place it is, his immediate, and most confident, answer was "luck."
“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck".” https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/697618-throughout-history-p...
This accounts for our science and philosophy being correct but also indicates that, for instance, if an explanation posits an entirely new non-physical dimension or an entirely new system of physics, without good evidence for it over the others (and this is important: the two explanations we are comparing with Occam's Razor need to be explaining the same data - have the same explanatory power - otherwise there should be an obvious way to falsify/confirm one or the other) then its less likely to be true.
Or, in short: "this explanation requires me to throw out everything else I think I know, whereas this other explanation explains the same data but requires me to discard less, so it is probably a better explanation."
It is not a statement about the world, it is a principle of economy of thought.
According to the logical positivist, two theories which explain the same outcome are equally true. Believing that one theory could be "more true" despite both predicting the same outcome is basically religion, since you are believing in some metaphysical "objective truth" beyond observation.
Edit: thinking about this more, possibly? Although, to me, Occam’s Razor seems like a strategy for making the best use of one’s time, not as a direct method of finding truth.
For example, it's insanely easy to come up with lots of nice sounding stories about how something might have evolved in humans but you still need evidence to know which stories are true.
Aside: I wish fallacies had more intuitive names that tied in to common knowledge. It would help their use spread if they were easier to explain, to remember and didn't have names that could be seen as pretentious e.g. the Latin ones.
"Straw man" is particularly bad for example - it sounds ridiculous and pretentious explaining where the name comes from to someone who doesn't know what logical fallacies are. "Misrepresentation" or something like that might be better.
I'd love it if we got to the stage where journalists were pointing out logical fallacies by name in interviews for example.
Taleb's description of the human susceptibility to story is itself told through story. How much of what we know about this idea is itself an oversimplification? How deep does the rabbit hole go?
This is the major challenge of the 21st century, in my opinion - the old information authorities (newspapers, big 3 TV news) haven't just been broken, but completely shattered. We've reverted to our tribal roots - trusting the word of respected members of our tribe - but now that our tribes can extend across the globe and encompass millions, it's like we're all standing in one giant town square shouting at each other about how to deal with things like COVID-19.
I agree that susceptibility to story is a real thing; ad agencies and scriptwriters have been trading on this phenomenon for a century. The problem is that we aren't even trying to train ourselves out of it. Without a practiced ability to recognize when we're being led through a nice-sounding story, anyone who can weave a good tale will capture huge numbers of people through the internet for their own purposes. For examples, see flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, and the various political disinformation campaigns.
I don't know what the solution is. But I worry a lot about the ability of powerful interests to capture more power when the general populace is in chaos. Early 21st century USA is in a state of intense intellectual chaos, and the increasing pace of capital accumulation at the top of our society is an ill omen.
on edit: I mean biologically inclined implies some genomic proof. Not just psychological studies.
There is plenty of evidence that shows that humans are susceptible to these types of fallacies, whether it's at explaining the world around us or even explaining our own behavior. My favorite study on self-justification is the split-brain experiment. But essentially if we are susceptible to after-the-fact narrative fallacies of our own behavior, we are definitely susceptible to it for the rest of the world, about which we know much less and which is far more complicated.
That’s not a perfect analogy because there are some genes that we know have strong psychological impact, but that doesn’t mean all human behaviour is neatly connected to specific isolatable gene sequences.
The article mentions the biological nature of it, but I interpret that as the biological reality that humans are not omniscient, thus are always susceptible to filling in the gaps between empirical evidence with unsubstantiated prose.
Suppose that the tendency towards the narative fallacy is due to such fundamental architectural structures in our brain that they go back to our early mammal ancestors. If that is true, any genetic change sufficient to modify it materially would have to be so radical that we essentially wouldn’t have mammal brains anymore. We’re way beyond population genetics and incremental natural selection at that point. There’s no genetic study or engineering intervention we could possibly contemplate in our lifetimes that would be relevant.
So when I say genetics isn’t really an issue here it’s not because the behaviour isn’t genetically determined, it’s that it may be so strongly tied to huge, mutually interconnected tracts our our genome that it’s just not a useful level of abstraction for us at the moment.
One of my personal pet peeves around this fallacy is how often it arises in sports. Before Jordan won 6 championships, he was a "great player who didn't elevate his teammates". After all the winning, he became "the greatest player to ever play". People just want a simple story, because they're busy - it's hard to have a nuanced view of everything you see or hear about.
Yes I think the same, it's certainly a comforting story to tell oneself about why people reduce the complex world to simple narratives, thus narrative fallacy if it exists falls prey to narrative fallacy.
However I have to assume that I could be wrong and what I perceive as examples of this narrative fallacy and demonstrating its existence do nothing of the sort.
Finally, the evidence all around us that I perceive does not lead to a proof of a biological inclination. It just leads to my consideration that there might be one.
So if Jeff Bezos or Nassim Taleb tells me it's a biological inclination, I would be inclined to find some polite way to tell him to prove it.
Meanwhile ideas have evolutionary pressure too. It's called memes. Memes work best when they require low effort from their carriers. If a meme requires some existing knowledge, & truth often relies on knowledge, that means it can only be transmitted to those with the knowledge, unless it brings that knowledge as baggage
So we should look for empirical evidence.
At the same time brains are complicated, psychology is complicated, genetics is complicated.
We know a lot about all of the above but we don't really understand any of them.
The history of all three sciences is full of narrative fallacies.
Given what we don't know, absolute proof, especially in genetics, isn't currently possible. So we have to settle for the best working explanation based on what we know. I think there is plenty of peer reviewed support for the idea that we are biologically inclined to look for neat explanations so that we can file challenging concepts away as resolved and focus our bandwidth on other things.
But still enough in the air to refrain from claiming biological inclination.
Asking for proof is useful, but it's a token exercise if you don't have an alternative explanation.
Pointing to Amazon and his success is no answer. People don't go around calling Carlos Slim hyperintelligent. Or Michael Bloomberg. Even Buffett gets the "wise" tag. But Bezos is always referenced as if he could readily out smart his smartest employees in their field if only he could be bothered...
It's very common to label clearly intelligent business-people who have 'mathiness background' and analytical thinking ability as geniuses.